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I agree. I can't fathom this idea that Cha, (or any stat really) is a dump stat, unless your playing in a very boring or one sided game. I can see playing an uncouth Barbarian as being fun, but that is only a once in a while thing at best.
As for Cha = attractiveness, I don't use that at all.
For one thing, people are attracted to different things. I personally have absolute 0 desire for stick-figure supermodel "attractiveness", and don't really find most attresses that "attractive". But I'm sure they all have pretty great Cha.
I would also venture that Con, Int, and especially Wis all play equally, if not greater importance. Con for being able to actually do things for perods of time, stay up, go out, hang out, and for the physical appearance as well, but this is probably the least pertinent factor.
Int, for being able to contribute to a conversation. Saying something properly and nicely only goes so far, but being able to actually add something much further.
Wisdom, probably the most important of the three, and maybe even greater the Cha, because Wis is both understanding what others are saying/feeling/implying/desiring, being able to relate to a person (which is a massive portion of attractiveness), being able to see those things you might otherwise ignor (pet peeves and the like) BUT being able to get over them and have something more meaningful in the attraction. Wis is also going to be that thing that seperates the absolute ditz from the undescovered nerd "hotness", and also going to be a factor in fathming what you want from the other.
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For an example of what I do, one of my players is a busty elf maiden. She's all sorts of sexy. But her charisma is nothing special because she's far too aloof to connect with people. So when she tried to seduce a human guard, it failed because she really only talked about how impossibly hot she was compared to lowly humans.
... in my games players often cast various actors as the movie version of their character. So I know Krarn Bear-Hug looks like Dwayne Johnson in half-orc make up, and Petterlee Pattersine is a halfling Evangiline Lilly. That determiens looks... Charisma determines reactions if you gt to talk to them or watch them interact for a long time.
I remember a certain gnomish sorceress/bard whos appearance and behavior was described as a miniature version of Mae West. One of our group was always using a variant of "Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper ?". In this case it was "Aren't you a bit busty for a gnome ?".
As to appearance and charisma ? Mae said
"A man can be short and dumpy and getting bald but if he has fire, women will like him." Mae West
but then again she also said
"Look your best - who said love is blind?" Mae West
...just as a homely person can be very charismatic.
The Emperor in SW Episode III. In fact, I think his personal charisma actually went UP when he became deformed, due to the pity factor.
I suspect you're seeing a lot of 7 or lower Charisma scores because, mecahnically, there is no reason for anyone except Sorcerers and Bards to have a Cha higher than 3. If you want to exacerbate that by adding a Cms stat and thus decreasing even the "fluff" appeal of Charisma, then may I suggest a couple of minor changes:
You won't be saying that when you get hit by a charisma-drain/damage. Summoners, Paladins, Ninjas, Oracles, and Mysterious Strangers disagree, most of which existed when you posted that.
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We use to run a house rule that had all the stats being the average of two other stats. STR was Physical [Lifting things] & Might [combat], CON was Health [hit points] & Wellness [saves and such], INT was Knowledge & Reasoning, etc... Charisma was the average of Comeliness & Persuation. You would still by your core stats with points, but then could modify your other two up or down based on character preference. Once we tried to roll all 12 stats and it was a bit of a mess. The secondary stats only came into play for situation issues. Normally any roll was based on the Core stat, but they could be modified depending on the situation.
Say you were trying to influence someone with Diplomacy. Your base CHA was 14 [+2], but your COM was 18 & your PRE was 10. If the person you were trying to influence was known to be a flirt, you might get a bonus of +1 or +2 based on you being good looking.
Ultimately, it didn't seem to come into play that often, so we dropped it.
We use to run a house rule that had all the stats being the average of two other stats. STR was Physical [Lifting things] & Might [combat], CON was Health [hit points] & Wellness [saves and such], INT was Knowledge & Reasoning, etc...
There was an official version of something like this for 2nd ed. I can't remember what book it was from though. I'm tempted to say it was from the Birthright series. That's going to bug me now. :/
You won't be saying that when you get hit by a charisma-drain/damage.
And that was one good thing in 3.5: there were any number of effects that did that (ego whip was a low-level favorite). How many are in the Pathfinder core rulebook? None? I haven't gone through every spell in the Paizo splats yet -- have they added a replacement?
You won't be saying that when you get hit by a charisma-drain/damage.And that was one good thing in 3.5: there were any number of effects that did that (ego whip was a low-level favorite). How many are in the Pathfinder core rulebook? None? I haven't gone through every spell in the Paizo splats yet -- have they added a replacement?
How about the bestiary? The things you are actually supposed to be fighting?
In the CRB there's Mummy Rot, Leprosy, Bubonic Plague, Ungol Dust, cursed items, Axe of the dwarfish lords, and the Vacuous grimoire... at least as far as I can tell.
The first bestiary has ghost, vargouilles, and succubus, in addition to every thing above.
Mummy rot: VERY easy save at that level, low damage (1d6/day won't accumulate fast eough to matter, and multiple hits don't stack if you're infected).
Bubonic Plague: 1 Cha damage. Puh-leese! Multiple simultaneous infections not possible.
Ungol dust: Only takes 1 easy save to shake off, 1000 gp/dose means most bad guys with NPC wealth/level can't afford until PCs laugh at it.
Vacuous grimoire: Do you put like 6 of these in a every room and force people to read them? Because 1 Cha drain isn't going to do the job.
Ghost: One low-damage Cha effect, foiled by save
Vargouille: Takes hours, threat at very low level only.
Succubus: You have to be willing.
Overall, this is all low damage, easy save stuff. It's a threat to low-Cha characters only at very low levels -- when a single swat with a greataxe is an equally credible (and more immediate) threat. I don't see anything in your list that would even vaguely worry someone with a Cha score of 5.
Ego whip did equally low damage if you left it at low level -- but did half damage even on a failed save, and you could spend more PSPs to jack up the damage. And you could hit the same person with it as many times as you wanted; the damage kept accumulating.
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Hello all,
How do you GM's out there determine comeliness?
Don't. Just don't.
Let a character LOOK like they want to. As good looking or as bad looking as they wish within the possibility for their race. But the rules for interacting with others are already there in the game and they cannot end around them by saying they are super attractive.
You can be hot as hell but if your charisma is 7 then the moment you open your mouth people are going to either become annoyed that your there and want you to shut up or will become bored of you very fast since you cannot hold a conversation that interests them with your wet carboard like personality.
Some folks are hot/sexy/attrative as hell but the moment they open their mouth you want them gone. The assumption of the Charisma stat is it is an overall total rating that is the effective value of the character for any and all situations that it affects. So you could be as beautiful as a supermodel but with a charisma of 7 you speak like a 7 year old and are as intersting to hold a conversation with as a snail.
Let the player look like they want, just tell them that it will not give them any advantages. They chose to tank their charisma and they have to deal with that.
Making a new stat just adds more stuff to worry about that frankly you probably don't need.
@Kirth GersenYes, but roll a 1 once or twice and you're out a character, or the supplies to bring them back, plus no one will like you, ever, not with a 3 or 5 cha anyhow.
From Bestiary 2: totenmaske, Meladaemon, tick swarms, wendigo, Theletos, ALL of the proteans, augnager, chernobue, and the vrolikai. Some of these are already very nasty creatures, if they have a one-shot kill on all of your party except the ninja and cha-casters, then you might have a big problem.... unless it's like one of my groups that is all cha-casters, and one ninja.
Some folks are hot/sexy/attrative as hell but the moment they open their mouth you want them gone.
So true... So very true.
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Playing a half-orc barbarian with a 12 in Charisma. Looks are heavily on the orcy side. I prefer to think that whether someone finds him attractive or not depends on that person's tastes. Charisma as directly proportional with attractiveness AND a Comeliness stat would both interfere with that.
I tend to agree. The one caveat I have is that, while Charisma is not physical beauty, and looks do not need to be directly proportional to charisma, they're not completely unrelated either (IMO)-- I don't think the person who's supposed to be the absolute ideal of physical beauty, appearance-wise... can really be accurately portrayed as, say, having a 5 or 6 charisma, no matter how obnoxious they are (unless they have some kind of supernatural aura of repulsion....); one can have a really high charisma and still be rather ugly, physically-- but you can't be so hideous that no-one can stand to be in your presence, and still adequately explain an 18 charisma (given its game effects)(unless perhaps you have a supernatural aura that makes people like and follow you anyway).
So... end result for me is that your character's appearance is up to you and is not dependent on your charisma score-- but the two concepts are (just barely perhaps) related enough that you can't have your charisma and your described appearance at completely opposite ends of the scale from each other.
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Charisma does not reflect beauty in my games. It reflects presence and social awareness. A person could have all the right features to make them beautiful, but have no influence on the social setting. (Think of all those trophy wives rich men have.) Meanwhile, the downright horrific night hag is making policy happen.
We use to run a house rule that had all the stats being the average of two other stats. STR was Physical [Lifting things] & Might [combat], CON was Health [hit points] & Wellness [saves and such], INT was Knowledge & Reasoning, etc...There was an official version of something like this for 2nd ed. I can't remember what book it was from though. I'm tempted to say it was from the Birthright series. That's going to bug me now. :/
It was AD&D 2nd ed Skills and Powers.