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I normally prefer to wait for an entire AP to be released before I consider running it. This way I have the whole story before my eyes, all the support material, and I can judge if I actually want to run it or not.
However, with Serpent’s Skull things took an unusual turn. I ran a fresh new group of players thru a PFS scenario set in Mwangi (Bloodcove Disguise). They loved it. They are tired of traditional European-eaque locales, and they are asking me to run SS for them.
That’s great, but it would mean a head-first dive into the AP that’s not fully out yet. Now I have the first two episodes, and they rock. The design, the ideas, the concepts – great work.
Now I’m curious what’s ahead. There are signs that adventure 3 took some trouble in writing, with James and Rob having to stand in and pick up the ball at some point. I have all the faith in both gentlemen, yet what lies ahead is a mystery. Will adventures 4,5 and 6 be awesome as well ? Or perhaps will Serpent’s Skull succumb to the same malaise that killed Second Darkness, namely a sharp dive of the metaplot and one big stinky pile of something sitting at the penultimate (sic!) chapter (Memory of Darkness, I am looking at you).
Then again, over at the horizon I see a smug smile and a mischievous look, is that Greg A. Vaughan, the dungeon crawl expert ? It’s sure that he cannot fail, else his arch-rival Sir Pett would laugh and ridicule poor Greg all over across the Pond.
Who’s next ? Graeme Davis. Co-author of Warhammer Fantasy RPG and Vampire the Masquerade. No need to say more.
And finally some Neil Spicer guy , who knows very well that he has to deliver the goods or else we will laugh at him on the forums and send poodle ninjas at him.
So, my question to Paizo crew is: is it going to be awesome ? Are there any t-rexes involved ? Can you guys convince me in any way, that I can be safe running this AP without knowing what lies ahead ? Perhaps some hints, as to what amazing sights and events await ? Oh, and is a dire celestial fiendish T-rex there ?
...Is it going to be awesome?
Of course. :-)
Are there any t-rexes involved?
Maybe. Replay hazy. Ask again later.
Can you guys convince me in any way, that I can be safe running this AP without knowing what lies ahead?
Well, I kind of look at it this way. It's a matter of trust. Trust in Paizo that they know what they're doing and that they learn more and more about what makes an adventure path successful everytime they do one. And trust in both the freelance authors as well as the Paizo developers, who will spin their turnovers into something truly great.
To whit, you've already enjoyed the first two issues, right? And now you get three authors for the cost of one contributing to the third adventure, one of whom already wrote Smuggler's Shiv which you seemingly enjoyed. Another of which is serving as the primary developer for the overall story arc of the campaign. So, I fully expect SS#3 to rock on toast.
Next, you seem to have an unhealthy man-crush on Vaughan (though, for the life of me I don't understand why!). Be that as it may, Greg has consistently written for every single adventure path since the line's inception. He's got to be doing something right, yes? So I think you're pretty safe in trusting he'll bring the awesome.
Graeme Davis will be up next...and what hasn't he contributed to over the years? To me, that seems to imply some serious professionalism and creativity. This is his first foray into Golarion, I believe, but he won't be writing the adventure on an island or anything. Rob and James will still be there to weave everything together.
And, lastly, that brings you to me. :->
It's called for a reason, people! C'mon!
Perhaps some hints, as to what amazing sights and events await?
You mean the adventure blurbs about the ancient, ruined City of Seven Spears in the Mwangi jungle, the equally hidden serpentfolk city of Ilmurea beneath it, an appearance by the Gorilla King, feral morlock descendants of the original Azlanti, dangers in the Darklands, raising an army to battle the serpentfolk, and the very real possibility of an evil snake-god returning to life aren't doing it for you?
Okay, how about this...
Enjoy!
--Neil
Can you guys convince me in any way, that I can be safe running this AP without knowing what lies ahead ?
I'm no Paizo guy, and my opinion doesn't mean much, but I sure wouldn't. AFAIC, running an AP before it's complete and before reading it all is doing your players a disservice. (Though I'm glad it works for other groups.)
Neil talks about "trust", but that got us Second Darkness, and to a lesser extent, Council of Thieves. (He also said: "To whit, you've already enjoyed the first two issues, right?", but I enjoyed the first two issues of SD, too...) *ahem* ;)
Thanks Neil, I see your passion and the "raising an army" bit got me. Are there plans for rules on that?
Simplistic rules, provided they survive the development process. Nothing all-out, full-scale Kingmaker-oriented, though.
Neil talks about "trust", but that got us Second Darkness, and to a lesser extent, Council of Thieves. (He also said: "To whit, you've already enjoyed the first two issues, right?", but I enjoyed the first two issues of SD, too...) *ahem* ;)
To which, I'll respond by saying, I'm also a fan of Paizo and I've collected every AP since the beginning. Second Darkness was enjoyable through the first two issues for me, as well...and I lost interest after that. So we're in agreement there. However, I've also got insight into the overall story arc for Serpent's Skull and I specifically know how it ends. I think people will like it. Do I know so? No. But I trust that they will. ;-)
My two-cents,
--Neil
I'm no Paizo guy, and my opinion doesn't mean much, but I sure wouldn't. AFAIC, running an AP before it's complete and before reading it all is doing your players a disservice. (Though I'm glad it works for other groups.)
I generally agree with this.
It's not about trusting Paizo to make it cool or not trusting Paizo to make it cool; it's about being able to see the big picture and correct as necessary for your players.
To keep using Second Darkness as an example, more than a few people have said they had a good time with it, because they were able to steer character creation in a direction that made sense for the last 2/3 of the AP, rather than what appears to make sense from the first 1/3 of the AP.
In the case of Legacy of Fire, a good 1/2-1/3 of the AP hinges on the players doing a certain thing. I have a good enough read on most of my players to have a good sense that, left to their own devices, they probably would try very hard to not do that thing. Since I've seen the full AP, I can stack the deck from the beginning such that they'll be more likely to do that thing of their own volition without me having to railroad it right on them in the moment.
I charged into CoT with only the first 2 parts of the AP in hand. I wouldn't do that again. It worked out ok but in hind sight had I had all 6 parts there are things I would changed and added to make the game flow much better for the particular characters.
I feel you Gorbacz. I don't know how to do character creation either. Because books 1-3 seem to be geared towards "make someone who likes adventure and is interested in gold" whereas the synopsis of the unreleased books 4-6 seem a bit more "make someone who wants to save the world from evil."
So what might be a fun greedy dwarf or snarky rogue in the first half, might not be as thematically appropriate for the second half. (Or maybe they will be: but my point is that I don't know.)
Alternatively, you could just run the AP as written for books 1-3, and then jump off the rails and do your own thing afterwards. Find some related module lines, or try your hand at writing up your own "searching for cool stuff in the jungle" material to help stay on theme better.
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I feel you Gorbacz. I don't know how to do character creation either. Because books 1-3 seem to be geared towards "make someone who likes adventure and is interested in gold" whereas the synopsis of the unreleased books 4-6 seem a bit more "make someone who wants to save the world from evil."
So what might be a fun greedy dwarf or snarky rogue in the first half, might not be as thematically appropriate for the second half. (Or maybe they will be: but my point is that I don't know.)
Alternatively, you could just run the AP as written for books 1-3, and then jump off the rails and do your own thing afterwards. Find some related module lines, or try your hand at writing up your own "searching for cool stuff in the jungle" material to help stay on theme better.
This. Thats something that bothers me, that happened in Second Darkness, and to a lesser extent in Council of Thieves (I somehow imagined a thievery centered campaign), when the goals of the PC suffer a sharp change and the designers of the campaign somehow asume the PC are going to stick to it.
It would be better if the AP started directed to a certain frame of characters and be coherent to the end, or have a VERY good reason to change that, the best campaigns I have played were the ones in wich the PC had agood reason to be involved in the action, even better if it was from the very start.
I don't know why players don't get it yet: All adventure paths come down to saving the world (or at least some small part of it). If the only thing your characters are motivated by is the accumulation of wealth, you don't need a big back-story or convoluted storyline. That's what one-off adventures like the Tomb of Horrors are for. Every character ever made for an Adventure Path should have the potential within them to stand against overwhelming odds at some point for some grand cause.
The examples above of the "fun greedy dwarf or snarky rogue" can't be as two-dimensional as that to last in any adventure path. They start out that way, true, because frankly who would expect a quartet of 1st-level no-names to tackle the evil drow army when at this time they can't even handle a single ogre without getting squashed? Their initial motivation can be petty because at these early stages they are pitted against petty foes. As they advance in level, their opposition grows and sets their sights on grand designs. So too must the PCs adapt or they will quickly grow bored and may miss the carrot to take them to the next stage of the story.
Remember Indiana Jones (as many have mentioned that this AP seems to reflect his stories)? He starts out looking for his "fortune and glory" but it always comes down to him trying to stop the Nazis from taking over. As the story develops and grows, his motivation develops and grows. If the players don't get that from the beginning, and don't adapt, they stagnate. You can't really make an interesting career out of "He who dies with the most toys, wins." It makes a good bumper sticker but not a good story. The nature of every adventure path is the same; eventually the players have to make a stand against the BBG and stop the return of the evil demigod to rule this plane/stop the drow army from attacking the surface world/stand between armies of magical genies/stop the evil Queen from trashing the kingdom/prevent the city from becoming a direct gateway to Hell/etc. See the pattern here? Only a hero will be motivated to finish the adventure path... "Kill them and take their stuff" isn't enough motivation to last. Every player should know this.