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Anyone ever play an Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age? Basically, the class sacrifices some of its mana, its potential to cast spells, to power "sustained abilities." These abilities increase armor, defense, elemental resistance, etc.
Is there a way we could make this work for the Magus? The Magus Arcana as written are neat but require too much in continuing resources. If we cut down on this by sacrificing spell slots for longer term benefits they'd be much more used, I think. Would it be possible to stop the benefit to free up a spell slot later? If it took, say, a minute so it wasn't something you did in combat and such?
I had a similar idea when I was reading "The Warded Man". Good book, by the way. Would the Magus at all benefit from permanently surrendering spell slots for permanent benefits like wards? Sort of like the old Tattooed Monk.
Anyone ever play an Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age? Basically, the class sacrifices some of its mana, its potential to cast spells, to power "sustained abilities." These abilities increase armor, defense, elemental resistance, etc.
Is there a way we could make this work for the Magus? The Magus Arcana as written are neat but require too much in continuing resources. If we cut down on this by sacrificing spell slots for longer term benefits they'd be much more used, I think. Would it be possible to stop the benefit to free up a spell slot later? If it took, say, a minute so it wasn't something you did in combat and such?
I had a similar idea when I was reading "The Warded Man". Good book, by the way. Would the Magus at all benefit from permanently surrendering spell slots for permanent benefits like wards? Sort of like the old Tattooed Monk.
I think a couple solutions to this problem is the inclusion of an Arcane Pool, similar to the Ki Pool monks have, or Rage Rounds, Bardic Music rounds, etc. etc. Basically, a pool of points that can be expended instead of spells to power the Magus Arcana.
Another is the inclusion of new Magus Arcana abilities that work similar to the Reserve Feats from the Complete Mage. Basically, then arcane potential of a prepared but uncast spell can be used to fuel different abilities. For example, holding a 3rd level Fireball in reserve lets you cast 3d6 mini-fireballs (10 foot radius). Once you cast Fireball, you might only have a Scorching Ray left as your next highest fire spell, so you can only use 2d6 mini-fireballs. Basically, you have to decide if a weak at will power is worth having, or should you use your big gun and then rely on an even weaker at will power.
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I've seen the Pool idea but don't particularly like it. I don't feel like we should relly on existing mechanics to fuel this class. I also don't feel particularly like reusing a 3.5 mechanic.
I think we can pool the intellectual resources of a few dozen of the smartest roleplayers (yes, I think Pathfinder players kick more butt than the other schlubs) and one of the best RP development teams in the business to think of something new.
The Arcana as written are new and interesting but rely on too many swift actions and too small a resource pool. We can fix what we have or develop a new and interesting mechanic if we try.
I've seen the Pool idea but don't particularly like it. I don't feel like we should relly on existing mechanics to fuel this class. I also don't feel particularly like reusing a 3.5 mechanic.
I think we can pool the intellectual resources of a few dozen of the smartest roleplayers (yes, I think Pathfinder players kick more butt than the other schlubs) and one of the best RP development teams in the business to think of something new.
The Arcana as written are new and interesting but rely on too many swift actions and too small a resource pool. We can fix what we have or develop a new and interesting mechanic if we try.
How about a Spellcraft check, maybe DC 15 initially, but it increases by 2 or 5 for every additional successful use.
Or something like Mystic Fortune. Everytime you roll a natural 20 (whether it's an attack roll, saving throw, skill check, initiative roll, caster level check, ability check, etc.) you get an additional use of a Magus Arcana.
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I think a couple solutions to this problem is the inclusion of an Arcane Pool, similar to the Ki Pool monks have, or Rage Rounds, Bardic Music rounds, etc. etc. Basically, a pool of points that can be expended instead of spells to power the Magus Arcana.
I just wanted to chime in and say that although I think that *could* work, I'm not sure I like it for the Magus specifically. The class already has a lot going on, with all of the worries a melee fighter might have, plus a spell book and spell preparation, plus Arcane Weapon, plus Arcana that are limited by uses per day...adding yet another daily resource to track would clutter it up. It's inelegant.
I think part of the reason that the Magus received the number of spells per day normally reserved for a spontaneous caster is because he is expected to sacrifice some of them.
In fact, I actually really like the idea of being able to burn spell slots for a buff. As a prepared spell caster, the Magus is eventually going to find himself in a tough spot where he has 3 spells left, and none of them are useful.
The ability sacrifice one (or more) for a buff gives him a lot of diversity, and enables him to have something useful to do with his spell slots no matter how badly he predicted what kind of trouble he might find himself in today.
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I like the idea of burning slots for buffs, too. Hence the Arcane Warrior from Dragon Age note above. However, burning Haste just so I can Haste myself for three rounds seems retarded.
I think the Magus should be able to keep shield up all day (hour per level probably but until he next prepares spells would be fine too) by losing a level four spell for the day.
What if the Magus had a number of Arcana slots he could fill with buffs for the day that increased with levels. At level three you get your fist Arcana Slot. You pick whether it is Shield, Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Power, etc. You sacrifice a spell to fill that slot with a bonus to AC, hit, or damage, respectively. The bonus is commensurate with the spell level burned. As the Magus levels he gets more slots. This would work kind of like the Inquisitor's Judgment does but all day and lacking the flexibility of the Judgment.
I think a couple solutions to this problem is the inclusion of an Arcane Pool, similar to the Ki Pool monks have, or Rage Rounds, Bardic Music rounds, etc. etc. Basically, a pool of points that can be expended instead of spells to power the Magus Arcana.I just wanted to chime in and say that although I think that *could* work, I'm not sure I like it for the Magus specifically. The class already has a lot going on, with all of the worries a melee fighter might have, plus a spell book and spell preparation, plus Arcane Weapon, plus Arcana that are limited by uses per day...adding yet another daily resource to track would clutter it up. It's inelegant.
I think the points per day would replace the daily limits of specific Magus Arcana. So, if you knew 3 arcana, instead of using each once per day, you could spend 3 points and use the same one 3 times a day instead.
I have to agree with the Arcana Pool.
But we might as well see the next iteration before banging our heads on these kinds of details.
Handling it through some modification of the 3.x reserve feat system even if they are class abilities rather than feats would probably be a pretty decent method.
Basically the Magus would be allocating resources (spell slots) to generate extended duration buffs, improve to hit, improve DPR, improve movement, etc.
Instead of spellstrike holding a full strength shocking grasp, the Magus stores a charge for x number of hours and during that time the weapon functions like a shocking weapon (+1d6), a higher level electrical evocation could power a shocking burst effect and so on.
Expeditious retreat can be used to boost speed by +10 for a couple of hours, magic missile could allow you to hit incorporeal targets, sleep adds a daze effect, whatever.
That way the Magus could bind a large number of persistent effects at the cost of reducing his ability to hit really hard for very short durations.
You could even seperate the spell part from the extended buff part and have it where the Magus has X number of points to be spent on buffs (that can be configurable on a daily basis) and x number of spell slots. That way even though he's stuck as 3/4 BAB his daily buffs are strong enough to get him within striking distance of the full Bab. If the magus wants to dramatically pump DPR he uses his spell slots and goes Nova for a small duration getting maybe fighter DPR + 25% damage for a limited number of rounds.
I think I would be willing to trade being 80% of the fighter some of the time in order to be 120% of the fighter other times (percentages are totally arbitrary but mainly used to highlight a point). The trick is figuring out what combination of powers allows a 3/4 BAB class to equal 80% of equivalent level fighter most of the time and what powers are needed to spike the damage to 120% a limited duration of the time and to balance what percentage of the time that is. If the Magus can spike for 120% of the Fighter for the majority of encounters faced in a given day then there is no reason to go with the Fighter (Paladin can have this problem due to the applicability of Smite Evil).
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I think the points per day would replace the daily limits of specific Magus Arcana. So, if you knew 3 arcana, instead of using each once per day, you could spend 3 points and use the same one 3 times a day instead.
Well that teaches me to post on the forums while sleep deprived.
That actually sits a lot better with me. I think he'd have to start with a relatively low number of points, and gain more at a rate similar to a Monk. The Arcana could then be limited by the number of points they consume, with the more powerful (late entry) ones consuming several points per use.
Maybe they could then give the Magus the ability to sacrifice spells to regain Arcana points (the # of which depending on the level of the spell sacrificed) as an immediate action, keeping the versatility that it gave the Magus, and letting him power any Arcana with a spell.
I like this idea. Reserving spell slots for long-term/permanent buffs will go a little bit easier on the resources without adding a new component.
Can you be more specific with the kinds of things you'd include?
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I have to agree with the Arcana Pool.
But we might as well see the next iteration before banging our heads on these kinds of details.
Isn't this just the time to talk about these kinds of details? Unless Jason has his next ideas for the class set in stone, we could figure out something pretty good.
As for the Reserve feats, I think it has the additional problem of maybe taking up a bit too much space page-wise. Paizo is limited in the size of book they can bind for reasons of cost and, presumably, physics. The Magus may not have a very deep spell list now but it'll get bigger in UM.
Vuron, how is handling it in a way like I was talking about above not nearly the same thing only taking up less page space? Other than offering less variety, it looks to be pretty similar. If they just changed the arcana to last an hour per level+Int mod, I think the class would work great. Obviously, Hasted Assault would not be on the list anymore since a forever Haste would break the class.
I've never been on board with the Arcane Pool that mimics the monks ki pool. However, I for some reason like the following idea as extrapolated by the above posts.
Empowering Arcana: spend an arcana usage, empower a spell as the empowered metamagic feat. You gain 1 additional arcana usage per day. You must be 5th level to take this arcana.
At first level and every odd level thereafter the magus should get an arcana. Each arcana either grants a continuous ability (maneuver mastery) or a limited usage ability (like the modified empowered arcana above). Now, how would we do a quickened arcana?
Quickened Arcana 1: you may spend an arcana usage to quicken a 1st level spell. You must be 13th level to take this arcana. You gain an additional arcana usage per day.
So, at most you could quicken all your 1st level spells at 13th level. Doesn't seem all that bad to me.
This is how I feel this should go. What do you think?
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I've never been on board with the Arcane Pool that mimics the monks ki pool. However, I for some reason like the following idea as extrapolated by the above posts.
Empowering Arcana: spend an arcana usage, empower a spell as the empowered metamagic feat. You gain 1 additional arcana usage per day. You must be 5th level to take this arcana.
At first level and every odd level thereafter the magus should get an arcana. Each arcana either grants a continuous ability (maneuver mastery) or a limited usage ability (like the modified empowered arcana above). Now, how would we do a quickened arcana?
Quickened Arcana 1: you may spend an arcana usage to quicken a 1st level spell. You must be 13th level to take this arcana. You gain an additional arcana usage per day.
So, at most you could quicken all your 1st level spells at 13th level. Doesn't seem all that bad to me.
This is how I feel this should go. What do you think?
Part of the reason I would want the higher power arcana to require more points to use is to keep them all more useful. How many people do you think are going to use the Silent Spell arcana when the same resources could get a Quickened Spell instead?
I'd probably say that Quickened would cost 2 points if not 3.