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In the form of the dragon I spell is a list of modifiers: +4 size bonus to Str, +2 size bonus to Con, +4 natural armor bonus, and so on.
What is the type of the NA bonus? Does it stack with an amulet of NA? Does it stack with NA gained through other racial characteristics? Let's say the creature in question is a race with a +2 NA and has an amulet of NA +1. When using this spell (through the dragon disciple PrC) does the creature get NA +7?
I think the NA should be typed as "racial" and thus overlap with the +2 NA postulated in my previous question. That makes the total NA +5.
In the form of the dragon I spell is a list of modifiers: +4 size bonus to Str, +2 size bonus to Con, +4 natural armor bonus, and so on.
What is the type of the NA bonus? Does it stack with an amulet of NA? Does it stack with NA gained through other racial characteristics? Let's say the creature in question is a race with a +2 NA and has an amulet of NA +1. When using this spell (through the dragon disciple PrC) does the creature get NA +7?
I think the NA should be typed as "racial" and thus overlap with the +2 NA postulated in my previous question. That makes the total NA +5.
The natural armor bonus provided by the Amulet of Natural Armor is an enhancement bonus.
The natural armor bonus provided by the spell Form of the Dragon is untyped, it can stack with the amulet.
Unfortunately, I can't tell if the natural armor bonus provided by the spell adds to or replaces a creatures own natural armor.
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Unfortunately, I can't tell if the natural armor bonus provided by the spell adds to or replaces a creatures own natural armor.
Yeah, that's exactly my question. It seems like a spell from the polymorph subschool should be providing a racial bonus to NA.
Unless someone has an alternative suggestion I'm going to house rule it to be a racial bonus...
It adds a bonus, so it would add, rather than replace. Since it is untyped, it would stack with the bonus from the amulet. So the total natural armor would be
2 (base) + 4 (FotD) + 1 (amulet) = 7
If you have it replace the racial natural armor (note NA, not NA bonus), then you are nerfing the spell in the hands of races with natural armor. Their natural armor should have been considered when evaluating their strength, so allowing it to be increased should not be unbalancing.
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But it's not untyped--Natural Armor is one type of bonus to AC, as are Dodge, Deflection, Armor and Shield. Multiple Natural Armor bonuses don't stack.
You are however correct that a Natural Armor bonus does stack with an Amulet of Natural Armor, which applies an Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor. The Enhancement bonus modifies the Natural Armor bonus, which in turn modifies the character's AC.
The situation is exactly analogous to the way Armor bonuses and Enhancement bonuses to Armor interact. A chain shirt won't stack with, say, padded armor because both provide Armor bonuses and only the higher one applies. A chain shirt will stack with Magic Vestment, because that spell specifically applies an Enhancement bonus to the armor rather than a separate Armor bonus.
It adds a bonus, so it would add, rather than replace. Since it is untyped, it would stack with the bonus from the amulet.
But it's not untyped--Natural Armor is one type of bonus to AC, as are Dodge, Deflection, Armor and Shield. Multiple Natural Armor bonuses don't stack.
Bingo! Give the man a prize. Natural Armor bonuses from polymorph type spells replace, and do not stack with, base natural armor.
In the form of the dragon I spell is a list of modifiers: +4 size bonus to Str, +2 size bonus to Con, +4 natural armor bonus, and so on.
What is the type of the NA bonus? Does it stack with an amulet of NA? Does it stack with NA gained through other racial characteristics? Let's say the creature in question is a race with a +2 NA and has an amulet of NA +1. When using this spell (through the dragon disciple PrC) does the creature get NA +7?
I think the NA should be typed as "racial" and thus overlap with the +2 NA postulated in my previous question. That makes the total NA +5.
The natural armor bonus provided by the Amulet of Natural Armor is an enhancement bonus.
The natural armor bonus provided by the spell Form of the Dragon is untyped, it can stack with the amulet.
Unfortunately, I can't tell if the natural armor bonus provided by the spell adds to or replaces a creatures own natural armor.
It is a size bonus. If you look at the polymorph chart as creatures get larger their Natural armor increases. The polymorph spells go off this chart so the spell give an additional +4.
It is a size bonus.
Incorrect. It is a natural armor bonus. If it was a size bonus, it would be listed as "A +X size bonus to natural armor" rather than "A +X natural armor bonus".
Incorrect. It is a natural armor bonus. If it was a size bonus, it would be listed as "A +X size bonus to natural armor" rather than "A +X natural armor bonus".
It is a size bonus.
I thought that chart had natural armor on it. I rescind the statement. Zurai is correct.
The Form of the Dragon Spell applies an untyped bonus there as well which would stack with that provided by the amulet..
Incorrect. If this were so, the spell would read, "A +X bonus to natural armor", not "A +X natural armor bonus". Read amulet of natural armor and barkskin more closely: They both specifically point out that they are providing a bonus TO natural armor. Form of the dragon does not do this.
The Form of the Dragon Spell applies an untyped bonus there as well which would stack with that provided by the amulet..Incorrect. If this were so, the spell would read, "A +X bonus to natural armor", not "A +X natural armor bonus". Read amulet of natural armor and barkskin more closely: They both specifically point out that they are providing a bonus TO natural armor. Form of the dragon does not do this.
The switching of the words is so subtle. I had to read it 3 times.
It is subtle, to be sure. The meaning is pretty clear once you see it, though, and compare form of the dragon to barkskin.
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Thanks Zurai. :)
Given that you tend to be pretty precise about wording, I need to throw another snag into the question I posed in the OP:
The creature in question has a +2 NA from its race. It gains +3 NA as it progresses through the Dragon Disciple PrC (which specifically states that it stacks with existing natural armor. So we're at a total of +5 NA. Add in the amulet of NA +1 and we're now at +6 NA.
Now the DD uses the form of the dragon I ability from the PrC. How does the +4 NA interact with the original NA?
1. The +4 NA overlaps with the original +2 NA. This would grant +4 NA (FotD1), +3 NA (DD), +1 NA (amulet) for a total of +8.
2. The +3 NA granted by the DD stacks with existing NA. SO it grants a total of +5 NA that is racial, which means the +4 NA from FotD1 overlaps entirely -- the NA of the creature doesn't change and remains +6 NA.
3. Some other combination?
Thanks everyone! So far I'm agreeing with Zurai that the FotD1 overlaps with the creature's base racial NA, but what about the +3 granted by the DD PrC?
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2. The +3 NA granted by the DD stacks with existing NA. SO it grants a total of +5 NA that is racial, which means the +4 NA from FotD1 overlaps entirely -- the NA of the creature doesn't change and remains +6 NA.
This is correct.
At the risk of appearing pedantic, however, the PrC feature doesn't stack with the creatures base NA, it increases it. It may seem trivial, but noting subtle differences in terminology is often essential to figuring this stuff out.
2. The +3 NA granted by the DD stacks with existing NA. SO it grants a total of +5 NA that is racial, which means the +4 NA from FotD1 overlaps entirely -- the NA of the creature doesn't change and remains +6 NA.This is correct.
At the risk of appearing pedantic, however, the PrC feature doesn't stack with the creatures base NA, it increases it. It may seem trivial, but noting subtle differences in terminology is often essential to figuring this stuff out.
This.
Dragon Disciple is an increase to the base racial natural armor, so form of the dragon's natural armor bonus conflicts with the whole shebang (minus the amulet).
wait, if something gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor, does that stack with other enhancement bonuses, like if you were additionally wearing magic armor, or not? This is getting pretty technical...
wait, if something gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor, does that stack with other enhancement bonuses, like if you were additionally wearing magic armor, or not? This is getting pretty technical...
So far as I know, there is absolutely no way to get an enhancement bonus directly to AC. Enhancement bonuses that eventually apply to AC are all actually enhancement bonuses to other AC bonuses. In your example, barkskin gives an enhancement bonus to your racial natural armor bonus, while a suit of +5 leather armor gives an enhancement bonus to the item's armor bonus. The natural armor bonus and armor bonus are then applied to your AC.
If you were totaling it up, it would look something like this:
AC 22 (10 base + 5 natural armor [0 racial + 5 enhancement] + 7 armor [2 base + 5 enhancement])
EDIT: In other words: no, they don't stack, because they aren't giving a bonus to the same thing. There's no question of "stack or overlap", because in order for that to be relevant, the bonuses have to apply to the same stat. That's never the case for enhancement to natural armor vs enhancement to armor vs enhancement to shield vs enhancement to dexterity, etc.
Thanks! I still get confused by technicalities after ten years and uncounted sage advice columns.