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I'm sure this has been asked before but I've seen varying replies to this. Ultimately the question is simply:
Do iterative attacks have any effect on the characters CMB.
For example, for a level 6 fighter, my attacks are +6/+1. If I try to disarm on my second attack in a full attack do I calculate my CMB with +1 or +6 from my attack bonus? Going purely from RAW it seems that it never changes... the formula specifies BAB which is a constant 6.
This is OK as it simplifies things a lot, however it seems that it is more advantageous to perform maneuvers on your later attacks since you don't lose effectiveness.
If it does go down with iterative attacks things become much more complicated. There are multiple values for each attack to keep track of (although there are simply -5 each time). But it seems to get even more complicated for a monk. A monk, past like level 2 I think, gets his level instead of his BAB to his CMB. So if a level 20 monk NOT using flurry of blows has attacks of +15/+15/+5. But if he performs maneuvers with these are they +20/+15/+10? Doesn't that seem a bit odd? And when he flurry of blows what do they become? I suppose +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3.
Ultimately I'm just rambling on about ramifications of the answer. My question is simply does CMB depend on BAB or the attack bonus for that individual attack, for disarming/tripping/sundering.
Yes it does depend on BAB. If you decide to use CMB on your second attack it will be five points lower. CMB is nothing but a specialized attack role.
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Yes it does depend on BAB. If you decide to use CMB on your second attack it will be five points lower. CMB is nothing but a specialized attack role.
+1
CMB and CMD are exactly like Attack Bonus and AC respectively, they just calculate their bonus slightly differently. This is why all non-armor/shield/nat.armor bonuses to AC apply to CMD, and all bonuses/penalties to attack apply to CMB*. The main reason for the difference is to make size an advantage rather than a disadvantage by inverting the size modifiers.*This is only the case for Weapon Focus and similar feats/abilities if the weapon is being used for the maneuver. By default only disarm and sunder use the weapon (IIRC). Trip can if the weapon is a trip weapon.
You`re` directed to calculate CMB as a single number. But everybody also calculates a single BAB number which they use for Feat Pre-Reqs and Power Attack Modifiers and so forth.
That doesn`t change that when you Full Attack, the iterative attacks each drop 5 each step, and that applies the same to CMB.
Really, CMB could just as easily have been presented as a MODIFIER you add to any normal attack roll. For Medium characters, there is NO difference to normal attack rolls (you can`t use Weapon Finesse for every manevuer, but neither can you for every melee attack). For creatures of other Sizes, the Modifier basically just needs to reverse the Size Modifier calculated into their melee attacks, i.e. would be (-2x Melee Size Mod). That way any attack, 2nd iterative or 3rd 2WF attack, can easily be substituted with a maneuver. Of course, you CAN easily do so currently, but the way it`s presented wouldn`t suggest that play style to many players.
@Stabs: Actually, because CMD was defined from an explicit list of bonuses rather than just deriving from Touch AC (which would be less words), it ended up that it doesn`t apparently benefit from Luck bonus, while Touch AC does. Errata? Who knows, Paizo hasn`t said.
Can someone with a +50 Luck bonus to Touch AC REALLY be near-impossible to TOUCH but are easy to Grapple even for a character with 1 STR?
And what`s wackier is that Paizo`s own char sheets DON`T LIST CMD NEXT TO AC (you know, since they`re affected by most of same modifiers, are defensive DCs target by attacks, etc) but is clumped with CMB as if they were SOOO different.
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You`re` directed to calculate CMB as a single number. But everybody also calculates a single BAB number which they use for Feat Pre-Reqs and Power Attack Modifiers and so forth.
That doesn`t change that when you Full Attack, the iterative attacks each drop 5 each step, and that applies the same to CMB.Really, CMB could just as easily have been presented as a MODIFIER you add to any normal attack roll. For Medium characters, there is NO difference to normal attack rolls (you can`t use Weapon Finesse for every manevuer, but neither can you for every melee attack). For creatures of other Sizes, the Modifier basically just needs to reverse the Size Modifier calculated into their melee attacks, i.e. would be (-2x Melee Size Mod). That way any attack, 2nd iterative or 3rd 2WF attack, can easily be substituted with a maneuver. Of course, you CAN easily do so currently, but the way it`s presented wouldn`t suggest that play style to many players.
@Stabs: Actually, because CMD was defined from an explicit list of bonuses rather than just deriving from Touch AC (which would be less words), it ended up that it doesn`t apparently benefit from Luck bonus, while Touch AC does. Errata? Who knows, Paizo hasn`t said.
Can someone with a +50 Luck bonus to Touch AC REALLY be near-impossible to TOUCH but are easy to Grapple even for a character with 1 STR?
And what`s wackier is that Paizo`s own char sheets DON`T LIST CMD NEXT TO AC (you know, since they`re affected by most of same modifiers, are defensive DCs target by attacks, etc) but is clumped with CMB as if they were SOOO different.
Yeah, in my group I explicitly say "Everything but Armor, Shield and Natural Armor" to prevent any confusion. Dodge is a slightly better feat when you realize it helps your CMD too. As are many little other things, for that matter.
And just because it has to be said: Monks are the gods of CMB/CMD (except possibly for disarm/sunder, where they are just "good"). A monk at high levels will (especially with Defensive Maneuver Training) have a much better CMD than pretty much anyone, on top of likely having maneuver feats that boost it against certain maneuvers, and the ability to recover from some of them more easily (or made them irrelevant, in the case of disarm and sunder).
I'm sure this has been asked before but I've seen varying replies to this. Ultimately the question is simply:
Do iterative attacks have any effect on the characters CMB.For example, for a level 6 fighter, my attacks are +6/+1. If I try to disarm on my second attack in a full attack do I calculate my CMB with +1 or +6 from my attack bonus? Going purely from RAW it seems that it never changes... the formula specifies BAB which is a constant 6.
I'm pretty sure they're supposed to work like that but i don't see any rules to that effect.
Bull Rush: is standard action or part of a charge, so it doesn't apply.
Grapple is a standard action: Folks with improved grapple get one grapple check as a move action and one as a standard action: there's nothing to indicate that its reduced as per base attack bonus
Overrun: Is a standard action during move or as part of a charge.
Feint is a standard action.
Trip: an attack
Sunder: In place of a melee attack, so its applicatble
Disarm: In place of a melee attack, so its applicatble
I don't see anything in base attack bonus to indicate that the base attack bonus itself is lower on iterative attacks. It should be SOMEWHERE...
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I'm sure this has been asked before but I've seen varying replies to this. Ultimately the question is simply:
Do iterative attacks have any effect on the characters CMB.For example, for a level 6 fighter, my attacks are +6/+1. If I try to disarm on my second attack in a full attack do I calculate my CMB with +1 or +6 from my attack bonus? Going purely from RAW it seems that it never changes... the formula specifies BAB which is a constant 6.
I'm pretty sure they're supposed to work like that but i don't see any rules to that effect.
Bull Rush: is standard action or part of a charge, so it doesn't apply.
Grapple is a standard action: Folks with improved grapple get one grapple check as a move action and one as a standard action: there's nothing to indicate that its reduced as per base attack bonus
Overrun: Is a standard action during move or as part of a charge.
Feint is a standard action.
Trip: an attack
Sunder: In place of a melee attack, so its applicatble
Disarm: In place of a melee attack, so its applicatbleI don't see anything in base attack bonus to indicate that the base attack bonus itself is lower on iterative attacks. It should be SOMEWHERE...
It's not your *base* attack bonus that's lowered (otherwise things like power attack would get really weird), it's just your attack bonus overall. The argument is that since CMB is also an "attack bonus" (just a specialized one) it should have the same penalty when replacing an attack that has a penalty.
The following is relevant:When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
Emphasis mine.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
works for me.
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Also,
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll
Does that mean that Power Attack makes your Tripping and Grappling less likely to work, and other stuff like enhancement bonii (like a +5 Longsword) will help your chances of succeeding on a special maneuver?
My DM is saying that on things like a bullrush or grapple, since logically the weapon has nothing to do with the attack the weapon magical bonuii have no effect.
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Does that mean that Power Attack makes your Tripping and Grappling less likely to work, and other stuff like enhancement bonii (like a +5 Longsword) will help your chances of succeeding on a special maneuver?
My DM is saying that on things like a bullrush or grapple, since logically the weapon has nothing to do with the attack the weapon magical bonuii have no effect.
Indeed. Bullrush, grapple, overrun and trip are (by default) extensions of unarmed strike. Bonuses to such should probably apply, but by RAW they do not. Sunder and Disarm can be any weapon (including unarmed strike) and should include the bonuses for whatever you're using. Trip can be a weapon if that weapon has the trip property.
And yes, power attack would reduce your odds of success with no benefit (unless you're sundering).