So how does it exactly work like if I had a lvl 8 cavalier with 3 strength modifier, power attack and challenge on an enemy and charging on horseback with a lance, so what parts get multiplied?
It is normally:
Lance: 1d8 crit 3x, horseback with spirited charge 3d8 3x
3d8+3(from str)+1(wpnfocus)+1(enchantment)+8(challenge)+16(power attack)+4(charge)
So what parts go into the stack before I multiply it by 3x?
Multiple dice are never multiplied by a critical hit, only 'static' bonuses (+1, +14, etc.)
So by your example (for a critical, it's 1d8 + 3(Str) + 1 (WF) + +1 (enchantment) + 8 (challenge) + 6, (not 16) (Power Attack), (No bonus to damage for charging) *3 = 3d8 + 57.
If you're wielding the lance two-handed the Str bonus goes to +4 and the Power Attack goes to +9 meaning it's 3d8 + 69.
cool?
Multiple dice are never multiplied by a critical hit, only 'static' bonuses (+1, +14, etc.)
So by your example (for a critical, it's 1d8 + 3(Str) + 1 (WF) + +1 (enchantment) + 8 (challenge) + 6, (not 16) (Power Attack), (No bonus to damage for charging) *3 = 3d8 + 57.
If you're wielding the lance two-handed the Str bonus goes to +4 and the Power Attack goes to +9 meaning it's 3d8 + 69.
cool?
So challenge and power attack do increase it? Alrighty, thanks for the info and for clarifying how power attack works (read it sloppily).
Just being nitpicky, but weapon focus is a bonus to attack rolls, not damage rolls, if I read it correctly.
On a somewhat related note, I had a heavy pick-wielding kobold (x4 crit multiplier) very nearly crit and do in a 3rd level fighter PC in one shot last session. I missed the confirmation roll by 2 points. So close! It would have been in the realm of 45 points of damage, too. Crits are dangerous! =)
Just being nitpicky, but weapon focus is a bonus to attack rolls, not damage rolls, if I read it correctly.
On a somewhat related note, I had a heavy pick-wielding kobold (x4 crit multiplier) very nearly crit and do in a 3rd level fighter PC in one shot last session. I missed the confirmation roll by 2 points. So close! It would have been in the realm of 45 points of damage, too. Crits are dangerous! =)
Yeah it was a mistake, wpn spec gives dmg.
Just being nitpicky, but weapon focus is a bonus to attack rolls, not damage rolls, if I read it correctly.
huh. :/ missed that one.
good Perception check.
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"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2."
Under attack action: critical hits
So by the book even the dice are multiplied so since spirited charge changes a lance to 3d8 that would be 9d8+57.
Or you could argue that spirited charge doesn't change the base damage that's 3d8 from spirited charge and 3d8 from the crit so 6d8+57.
There's a reason a lot of GM's try to limit chargable encounters. (All the more reason to take a small size race because you can charge in dungeons also.)
Extra dice are never multiplied.
You probably should have quoted the next paragraph (p.184):
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue’s sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
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That's fine, and that's also why I included the second part regarding it being 6d8.
So the extra dice from spirited charge aren't multiplied that's still 3d8 (spirited charge) + 3d8 (crit)= 6d8
How can you tell me that a critical on a spirited charge is the same damage as a spirited charge alone? or a critical alone for that matter.
That's fine, and that's also why I included the second part regarding it being 6d8.
So the extra dice from spirited charge aren't multiplied that's still 3d8 (spirited charge) + 3d8 (crit)= 6d8
Multipliers are added. You combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. So 1d8 (*3 + *3) = 5d8.
How can you tell me that a critical on a spirited charge is the same damage as a spirited charge alone? or a critical alone for that matter.
I didn't. I just said that additional dice damage (like spirited charge) are not multiplied on a critical hit.
I probably should have elaborated, and added the paragraph above tho.
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Multipliers are added. You combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. So 1d8 (*3 + *3) = 5d8.
I can reference this from 3rd edition, but I have not been able to find it in the Pathfinder core rules. I just searched over at d20pfsrd.com to no avail, and my books are at home right now. Perhaps my search-fu is inadequate, but does anyone out there have a reference for this in any of the core material? One of my players just took spirited charge and I know critical multiplier stacking issues are just a dice roll away.
Thank you
Duane
Multipliers are added. You combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. So 1d8 (*3 + *3) = 5d8.
I can reference this from 3rd edition, but I have not been able to find it in the Pathfinder core rules. I just searched over at d20pfsrd.com to no avail, and my books are at home right now. Perhaps my search-fu is inadequate, but does anyone out there have a reference for this in any of the core material? One of my players just took spirited charge and I know critical multiplier stacking issues are just a dice roll away.
Thank you
Duane
"Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage."
I don't have a page number since I'm getting this off the PRD, but it's under Combat -> Combat Statistics -> Damage -> Multiplying Damage.
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Multipliers are added. You combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. So 1d8 (*3 + *3) = 5d8.
I can reference this from 3rd edition, but I have not been able to find it in the Pathfinder core rules. I just searched over at d20pfsrd.com to no avail, and my books are at home right now. Perhaps my search-fu is inadequate, but does anyone out there have a reference for this in any of the core material? One of my players just took spirited charge and I know critical multiplier stacking issues are just a dice roll away.
Thank you
Duane"Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage."
I don't have a page number since I'm getting this off the PRD, but it's under Combat -> Combat Statistics -> Damage -> Multiplying Damage.
Thank you Zephyr
Multipliers are added. You combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. So 1d8 (*3 + *3) = 5d8.
I can reference this from 3rd edition, but I have not been able to find it in the Pathfinder core rules. I just searched over at d20pfsrd.com to no avail, and my books are at home right now. Perhaps my search-fu is inadequate, but does anyone out there have a reference for this in any of the core material? One of my players just took spirited charge and I know critical multiplier stacking issues are just a dice roll away.
Thank you
Duane"Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage."
I don't have a page number since I'm getting this off the PRD, but it's under Combat -> Combat Statistics -> Damage -> Multiplying Damage.
Page 179
Here is a full link to a similar post from yesterday. LINK.
I have also cut and pasted the math portion.
Yes. In Pathfinder and D&D the way to figure out multiplication is like this.
Weapon Damage (Dice+Mods) is Z.
Weapon Multiplier is W
Extra Dice Damage (Flaming, Sneak Attack, Vital Strike) is Y.
Special Rules Multiplier (Brace, Charge, Feat, Ability) is T, S, etc
Normal Crit is (Z*W)+Y
Special Hit without at Crit is (Z*T)+Y
Massive hit that is a crit with special multipliers would work as below.
(Z*{W+[T-1]+[S-1]}+Y
So Lance with a Crit (X3) with Spirited Charge(X3) is
(Z*(3+(3-1))+Y equals (Z*5)+Y
Or X5 Damage. Not X6 or X9.