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No, this isn't about the Goblin babies. :)
I just started a RotRL campaign, we've been through 3 sessions and it seems that the party is coming together quite nicely. However, I had a moral "Paladin" question and wanted to turn to the braintrust on these boards for advice.
Small disclaimer here: I know that asking "Should a Paladin have done this?" is akin to dumping kerosene on a bonfire. I'm not asking whether or not the Paladin "should" have done this, but where I go forward from here.
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The party had returned from the upper level of the Glassworks, killing all the goblins with a stabilized Tsuto (at -2). They tossed him in the jail. Since Sheriff Hemlock had already left for Magnimar to get reinforcements, there was only one guard to watch him. They went back underneath the Glassworks to the Catacombs of Wrath and killed the Sinspawn, the Quasit, and deactivated the Runewell. Once they returned to heal and question Tsuto, it quickly became clear he was not going to cooperate. They soon came to the conclusion that he was too dangerous to leave alone in the jail with the 1st level Warrior while they went to Thistletop to confront Nualia. The paladin moved into the cell, and attacked Tsuto, reasoning that if they left him alone, he could escape and threaten the town.
Since Tsuto was at 5 hp, the "fight" didn't last long. Paladin won initiative, and 1 rd later Tsuto was dead. He took responsibility for it, making sure the body would be cremated and buried in the local cemetary, and the PCs have moved on Thistletop. They are currently in the nettles, as we had to close that session just after the fight with Gogmurt the druid.
I've been playing since 2nd edition, no question in my mind that Paladin acted inappropriately. My question, how do I deal with it in game? I don't want to make him "fall" over one incident, but I need to make it clear that this sort of behavior is unacceptable behavior.
Any suggestions?
Um...given the guy was probably going to be executed anyway, I can see why you might be hesitant to make the character fall. In Gods & Magic, it gives examples of how each god let's someone know of their disfavor. I'd use that as a guide and go harsh with it.
Of course, there is the legal issue. Regardless of what Tsuto had done, he was a prisoner and entitled to trial. Now the paladin should possibly be facing a trial and maybe even a short drop with a sudden stop. Of course, I'd probably have had the not a level 1 warrior shoanti barbarian town jailer knock the paladin in the head for offing a prisoner.
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Appreciate the response. The Pally is an archer that worships Erastil, and Gods and Magic just says that Erastil shows his disapproval by turning the offending person into something more useful, like a tree. Might be a little drastic.
No doubt Sheriff Hemlock is going to have words with the PC, but seeing as he's a part of the troupe that is invading Thistletop on behalf of the town, I'm not sure Hemlock would actually arrest him. Hemlock leaves the PCs in charge when he goes to Magnimar, so he really only has himself to blame.
I'm wondering if I can take some sort of angle on this in "The Skinsaw Murders."
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Appreciate the response. The Pally is an archer that worships Erastil, and Gods and Magic just says that Erastil shows his disapproval by turning the offending person into something more useful, like a tree. Might be a little drastic.
No doubt Sheriff Hemlock is going to have words with the PC, but seeing as he's a part of the troupe that is invading Thistletop on behalf of the town, I'm not sure Hemlock would actually arrest him. Hemlock leaves the PCs in charge when he goes to Magnimar, so he really only has himself to blame.
I'm wondering if I can take some sort of angle on this in "The Skinsaw Murders."
If the paladin is in chArge, in a medieval society, he is judge, juror, and executioner. Justice happens.
If the paladin is in chArge, in a medieval society, he is judge, juror, and executioner. Justice happens.Appreciate the response. The Pally is an archer that worships Erastil, and Gods and Magic just says that Erastil shows his disapproval by turning the offending person into something more useful, like a tree. Might be a little drastic.
No doubt Sheriff Hemlock is going to have words with the PC, but seeing as he's a part of the troupe that is invading Thistletop on behalf of the town, I'm not sure Hemlock would actually arrest him. Hemlock leaves the PCs in charge when he goes to Magnimar, so he really only has himself to blame.
I'm wondering if I can take some sort of angle on this in "The Skinsaw Murders."
If you read the material, this is pretty clearly not a medieval society where the man in charge gets to be judge, juror and executioner. And while it's all well and good that the paladin is invading Thistletop on the town's behalf, if this sort of behavior were to become a regular habit, then I really doubt that ther sheriff or mayor would hesitate to bring the full force of the law down on him. There are hellknights in Magnimar for a reason, after all.
And honestly, if Hemlock were really worthy of the job of Sheriff, helping the town or not, he'd at least go through the motions of enforcing the law. Just because the paladin is put on trial doesn't mean he has to be found guilty. The justice presiding over his trial might actually agree with his reasoning.Varisia is clearly a place where justice frequently comes on the end of a blade. But it also has laws, and it has some scary people who enforce them. And I doubt Erastil would really agree with the paladin's reasoning.
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wspatterson, I generally agree with you. I would probably have Sheriff Hemlock and demand to know what happened, especially after talking to the jailer. I would have him try to get the point across that there is a process of law. I would also have him take responsibility (and whatever you feel would be the necessary consequences) but the trust that he has in the party would be forever broken.
In my campaign, my heroes are not everyone's favorite bunch of people in Sandpoint. Every time they do something that would endear themselves to the town, they go and do something that turns them off. Now they have kept a good relationship with a handful of the important people in town, namely Ameiko, Brodert, and the good Sheriff, the general people don't trust them.
That translates into several things, such as their discount. The discount that they earned early on, has 'dried up.' Slowly, some of them are starting to regain the trust of the town, but it is an up-hill battle.
All this and they have only just finished Skinsaw Murders...
Go a little more easy on them because they are still beginning. If you feel that Erastil is displeased, give him a minor penalty... maybe he is struck with bane until he atones for it. He is still lower level, so it is likely that Erastil is not watching this paladin personally. So it makes sense that maybe a herald is meting out his judgment.
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Since he is a paladin/archer of Erastil, have stuff like the following happen OUTSIDE of combat:
Bow String Breaks
Arrow Heads 'fall off' his arrows
His Bow is not where he last left it (but still nearby)
Quiver falls apart
Sees a stag in distance, that runs from the PC in fear.
Etc.....
At night, he should have nightmares about killing a defenseless captive. At times, the role should be switched so that the PC takes on the role of be the defenseless captive.
Have the Town's Priest confront the PC when he comes back to town. The priest has had the same dreams about the PC.
The only way he can atone is to swear to serve Tsuto's next of kin (sister) until she releases him.
So that that service doesn't affect the campaign, in book Two it is she that asks the PCs to investigate the events at the farm. All of book two becomes the Paladin's Penance, and she releases the paladin at it's conclusion.
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Sees a stag in distance, that runs from the PC in fear.
Etc.....At night, he should have nightmares about killing a defenseless captive. At times, the role should be switched so that the PC takes on the role of be the defenseless captive.
Have the Town's Priest confront the PC when he comes back to town. The priest has had the same dreams about the PC.
The only way he can atone is to swear to serve Tsuto's next of kin (sister) until she releases him.
So that that service doesn't affect the campaign, in book Two it is she that asks the PCs to investigate the events at the farm. All of book two becomes the Paladin's Penance, and she releases the paladin at it's conclusion.
These are good ideas... I find it very appropriate that you send Father Zantus to speak to him, as he is a cleric of Desna (dreams)...
Serving next of kin is appropriate as well, though after Tsuto kidnapped Ameiko, I think that she would be a little more conflicted about Tsuto's death. Perhaps she would have wanted nothing to do with him, but perhaps she would have forgiven him and considered him troubled and steered upon the wrong path by Nualia. It all depends on the DM...
If not serve Ameiko, perhaps a quest of atonement.
I think the "quest" of atonement wouldn't have to be much of a quest and rather a lot of back-breaking service. Perhaps have the paladin clean up the glassworks so it can be operational again... alone. The solitary and physical work should give him plenty of time to reflect on taking the law into his own hands rather than leaving it to the legitimate authority.
I'm in favor of penance and basic atonement more than making a paladin fall. In fact, I'd hit the paladin up for penance even for things that don't significantly break the paladin's code. "You wasted all that food by not checking up on the cellar and letting it spoil? Stand vigil in the sanctuary tonight and then back to normal duties in the morning. Perhaps a night without sleep and in quiet reflection will put some sense in your head."
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Dude went into a jail cell and executed a prisoner because he "might" have been able to get out of a locked cell and overpower an armed and armored low-level guardsman (who's 2nd level, btw, not 1st). This in a town with a sheriff and a mayor and 2 days away from a msjor city with an established justice system.
That was premeditated, could-blooded murder. CHAOTIC, and EVIL.
Despite all the advice for atonement ideas, there is no way I'd allow that guy to be a paladin again. He broke the first lessons they teach in Paladin 101 class. He should be in that cell, awaiting his trial in magnimar. Have the player roll up a new character.
IMHO, of course.
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Sorry, but I don't agree. Then again that opens up the can of alignment arguments that shall not be entered. As for the Paladin issue. As he is a paladin of Erastil, I would make his code of conduct different. More in line with his god's alignment.
However, this action seems to have been more out fear than anything else. Not trusting the law, especially when you are low level, leads to extreme measures.
Punish them, and make it seem like a serious error in judgment that will not be tolerated again.
You want to allow your PCs to grow... and if that player uses that opportunity for great role-playing, all the better.
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If the paladin felt that Tsuto was too great an evil to be left alive, then he should never have taken him into custody. Tsuto was in the justice system, and behind bars!! Opening up the cell and going in there with sword in hand is cold blooded murder.
Prisons are full of "evil" people. Is that because there wasn't a paladin around to mercilessly execute them all?
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But see, your argument holds more weight if the was a Paladin of Iomede, where his primary role is to serve justice and law.
Not all Paladins have that focus, especially now that the Archetypes have been released. Since this player chose to be a Paladin of Erastil, perhaps he and the GM should talk to see what laws he is primarily supposed to uphold. Erastil is the hunter, and so I would feel that the laws of nature, or a hunter's code would make more sense.
Then again, playing a paladin, the player should be held to a code of conduct, regardless of who he worships. It just needs to be determined by the player and GM.
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Lots of responses here!
When I first heard the character's justification, my thought was "This is a Neutral Good POV, the greatest good for the greatest number of people."
I think I know what I am going to do, but I don't want to spell it out in this thread as my player might be on these forums.
However, I will be getting the point across that all actions have consequences, both in the physical world and in the spiritual one.
Also, this will be carrying over WELL into Skinsaw Murders. Once my nefarious plot is carried out, I'll necro the thread and fill you all in.
Muahahahahahaa!
What the Paladin did was against the law, and thus against -any- paladin's code. A paladin is, by very essence, non chaotic and an upholder of order and law. He broke the law "for the greater good", in a sense.
However, it also was was not an evil act. He did this against a known enemy to protect innocents and with good intentions. It does not sound like he was doing it out of revenge or malice. So it clearly was still a good act.
So in the end, the paladin broke his code by performing a Chaotic Good act.
If he had performed an act that was more Neutral or Evil, I would have the paladin fall immediately. But being that the Paladin strayed off his path and broke the law, but stayed on the side of good, there's several ways to handle this. Here's a few ways that I would probably take it if this happened in my campaign:
1) Strayed from the path
The church steps in. They see great potential in the paladin, as he has come and saved both their church and the town on one of their most holy days, and spared many lives. Unfortunately, it appears a dark shadow is clouding his thoughts, and the paladin has strayed from his path. They enact steps to save this holy soul, return him to the path of truth and justice. Through the church's influence and sway, they are able to remove or reduce any charges against the paladin, but in return take full responsibility for him. The paladin now owes the church his freedom, and possibly even his life. In return, the church will both discipline him to return him to the good graces of the gods, and task him with goals and errands in which to further serve the church. He must pay tithes on everything he earns, obligingly respect both every law of Sandpoint and rules of the church, as well as volunteer his skills and services at times to both the town and church. This can, of course, easily be used as a hook both into any sidequests you may have (such as clearing out chopper's isle and blessing it to remove any "unholy taint" that may remain, so it may be used once again) or to bridge into book 2 (or even book 3, with a little rewriting)
2) The cursed Dark hero, vigilante
The Paladin gets arrested and thrown in the Sandpoint jail. He stays there for several days, but Mayor Deverin doesn't want the public image of crucifying one of the saviors of the town and defending the murdering monster that he offed. Things get tied in red tape, favors are called in, and the town guard on watch that day ends up "forgetting" if it was the paladin who came in and did it and that it might have been some random lynch mob. The paladin gets set free, but reactions are mixed. Some of the town may still think of him as a hero, while others push their kids inside and close the door and refuse to make eye contact or even talk with him. Ameiko (and the rest of the Rusty Dragon by proxy) shuns the paladin for offing her brother like that and not giving him a fair trial. Yes, he may have been a monster, but he was still family to her. Staff and patrons in the Rusty Dragon would pretty much ignore the paladin and any party members who are with him at the time. The paladin ends up adopting a sort of "Spiderman Syndrome" where many people think he's a bad guy that has Hemlock and/or Deverin wrapped around his pinkie and is now trying to run the town to his own ends, despite the paladin perhaps trying to convince everyone that he's just trying to do good for the town. Hemlock isn't happy with the way things go down, and is watching the paladin like a hawk and often isn't giving him an inch to breathe. Mayor Deverin also now has a favor owed by the paladin to be called in whenever she wants...
Meanwhile, Erastils agents aren't too pleased with the paladin, but given that he hasn't strayed so completely yet he hasn't fallen. As penance for "hunting" a caged animal, the Paladin ends up suffering victim to bizarre circumstances and strange coincidences. Any game he ever tries to hunt (such as either using survival, or going with Foxglove on the boar hunt) never proves fruitful for the paladin. His bowstring always snaps, he always steps on a branch and spooks the game, he shoots himself in the foot, etc. In the end his strikes/shots always miss, and the hunted is always spooked and runs away.
In addition, the paladin keeps falling into strange circumstances where he is trapped and unarmed. His sword and scabbard fall off his belt, and as he dismounts his horse to retrieve it, gets his foot caught in his sturrup. He slips and rolls down a hill and into a gully, dropping equipment as he goes. A tree falls on him and traps his leg, his sword just out of reach or broken. Even in town, a merchant cart tips and rolls onto him, safely trapping him inside, he gets his sleeve stuck in a doorjam or fence, etc. And every time one of these freak accidents happen, a predator of some sort shows up. A firepelt cat shows up when he's stuck to his saddle, a goblin or wolf is patrolling the gully, even hawks or eagles dive at him while he's stuck under the tree. In town stray dogs come at him when he's stuck on the fence, or the merchant cart was carrying a box of snakes, which is now busted.
Such a curse would continue to plague the paladin for the rest of his life, until he atones for his actions, such as releasing enough captives or prisoners, finding ways to (legally) get innocents in jail released, or sparing the lives many of his foes and handing them to the law to let them have due justice under the law rather than the sword.
3) Hellknight recruit
The Hellknights get wind of the parties exploits, as well as the paladin's current predicament and see it as an opportunity and show up in town. They find his incarceration unlawful because under the letter of Sandpoint's law, martial law is enacted when the Sheriff is missing or otherwise unaccounted for. Being that Sheriff Hemlock was out of town and did not leave an exact address and timetable filed with the city or post public notice a week in advance, Sandpoint was officially, by law, under martial law during Tsuto's death, and the acting guard did nothing to stop the party while under martial law, no crime was committed. Being that incidents that happen under martial law that are not dealt with do not carry over.... well, you get the idea.
So the Hellknights get the paladin out of the jail free and clear. They feel his actions were justified, but that his mistake was that he should have proper authority in the future to make such justice easier to carry out. They see potential in him as a recruit to the order (not necessarily the prestige class, i'm speaking of the faction here) and offer to give him certain privileges and limited access to certain training and resources should he wish to start working for them. They could even, after proof of his worth, give him deputized authority as a Hellknight representative to carry out Hellknight law in Varisia.
The conflict here would be walking the very tight line between his duties as a Paladin and upholding Good and Law beyond everything else, and his duties as a Hellknight in upholding Hellknight Law above everything else. Especially when Hellknights can have a sense of law that doesn't necessarily lean towards good...
Just a few suggestions. :)
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When I first heard the character's justification, my thought was "This is a Neutral Good POV, the greatest good for the greatest number of people."
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That's what I see too, he didn't bypass the law (they let him in knowingly) and his judgment was 'proper'(nobody there would say that a judge would have decided differently) but he didn't make sure his judgment was approved by the local authorities.
If he wanted to get back his pally abilities he'd be looking for a cleric who'd be willing to cast atonement, which of course would entail some sort of side quest. Pretty cut and dried.
A lot of good advice in this thread.
In my own, not so humble, opinion, Paladin Codes nowadays are for weenies. In my day, (back when Fighters had THAC0 and Thieves' had backstab) Paladins were paragons of virtue, they were held to the very highest of standards. If a Paladin strayed from the path, even a little, he was PUNISHED and he had to ATONE. (Not necessarily via the Cleric spell of similar name). If he ever committed a willful, evil act, he FELL. There was no atonement for a fallen Paladin, he was forever sullied. Note that "falling" was a specific and permanent event, a Paladin could lose his abilities temporarily for other reasons and not be considered "Fallen".
In a more direct response to the OP, the Paladin killed a surrendered foe. Regardless of reason that's clearly a violation of his code. Now I'm a big ol' softie and wouldn't have him fall permanently for this, I particularly like the bit about bow strings breaking and such to show the Pally that his deity is displeased. If he takes the hint and prays for forgiveness I'd let it go right there. If he's a little to thick, I mights consider taking his powers for a few days. On the other hand, this is a pretty severe violation, so a more severe penance might be in order. Perhaps a small quest in service of his church (or maybe just the 2500gp offering for an Atonement spell) to regain his powers.
This is an interesting post in that some people have a strange sense of what a "good" act is. So let's review, this group of "Heroes" caught Tsuto and was holding him in prison, so far so good. However because he was uncooperative the group, not just the paladin folks, decided he was too dangerous to let live since they had to go running off to Thistletop.
The icing on this cake is that not only did they decide that they were going to kill a prisoner who while in his jail cell was relatively helpless but that the paladin would do it fully armed and armored with full hit points against an unarmed man who was wounded with only 5 hp.
First point as others above have stated this is clearly against the law and due to the circumstances I would say an act of premeditated murder. Second point how in the world could the paladin have any respect or honor from his peers? He killed a man who was unarmed and helpless, a dishonorable act of cowardice, not of good. Third, there is nothing good or redeeming in killing someone because of what they "might" do, there was no guarantee he would even attempt to escape let alone kill anyone.
If they were so concerned they should have stayed to guard him until the sheriff returned or they could have asked his sister who is a capable adventurer to watch him, where was the Jailer Vachedi a 3rd level Barbarian? there was also a 2nd level paladin Gavin of the Two Knights Brewery, but no, it was easier to just kill him and that's the real point, they did what was easier rather than what was right and then tried to justify it by saying it was for the "good" of the town. I would even call this evil for a chaotic good to have done.
Personally, I would have the paladin's powers taken from him by his deity until he atones for his actions, it shouldn't matter that the he is low level, it sucks but sometimes that's the cost of player actions. I would also have the Sheriff waiting for the entire party ready to put them in jail for taking the law into their own hands or at the very least having them leave town. Even if that doesn't happen I'm sure that some of the people in Sandpoint would be taking a second look at these so called "Heroes" that would kill someone in cold blood, it would sound uncomfortably close to Chopper which wasn't that long ago.
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Incredible responses! Thanks so much for everyone's ideas.
So far: when things started happening (dreams, the Bane spell), the player wised up right away. He's now saying he wants to play a different character, as the two of us have opposing viewpoints as to what Lawful Good is.
Oh well...
That used to happen with me when I ran Star Wars. People had a different view of Dark Side Light Side... Ultimately it is the domain of the GM to set the ground rules though...
Maybe it is for the best. Better early in the Campaign rather than later...
Incredible responses! Thanks so much for everyone's ideas.
So far: when things started happening (dreams, the Bane spell), the player wised up right away. He's now saying he wants to play a different character, as the two of us have opposing viewpoints as to what Lawful Good is.
Oh well...
Sigh. This is what happens when players don't understand that playing a Pally has RP implications.
It's also what happens when players don't read the entire class description and say,"Hey, it says here that the DM can take all my powers away. Huh, maybe I should talk to him first and make sure we're both on the same page. After all, my character is my own responsibility, not the DM's"
Well, at least he realized his mistake early in the campaign.
This has always been my issue with Paladins. Supremely awesome power, which is tempting for any player, but all that power comes with responsibility.
Uh... since when Paladin has awesome power? PF made the class competitive, from one of the absolutely weakest classes in the game, but no more.
As about the incident in question, the paladin's judgement was poor. In general, it is inevitable that a DnD party reaches the point when imprisoning villains stops working, because they can tear apart any prison not staffed by people as strong as PCs (and if there are such people around, why PCs must save everything?). So you have no real choice but to make incorrigible villains deader than dead, whenever you can. However, the party clearly wasn't at that point, even assuming that the villain in question was indeed incorrigible (altough in Paizo APs that's a safe assumption). I'm only hesitant to call this needless vigilante killing outright evil, because over time exactly this sort of decisions will indeed become necessary to protect the innocent from supervillains PCs fight. So, the paladin deserved scolding from his deity, at least.
If you look further into the AP, there are elements dealing with sins and their corrupting influence on a person. Initially, I would say this paladin is a prime candidate for Wrath. Toss in some bloody, murderous dreams. When he's considering an action, tell him he'll get a bonus if he does something violent and destructive (though you can be a little more subtle as well).
I would temper it with having someone or something give him a warning though. Like a cleric or druid of Erastil giving a sermon on how violence should be a last resort. Another option is to have a power fail, like Lay on Hands doesn't work after a combat that could have been avoided (though the next day it's restored). Then, continue to try and tempt him with bonuses for being Wrathful.