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It is my intention to scry on an enemy army's general until he falls asleep. Once he falls asleep and is relatively vulnerable, I want to attempt to teleport to him, snatch him up, and teleport back to MY army camp--essentially kidnapping him for interrogation purposes.
However, I can only teleport a willing target.
I once heard or read somewhere that sleeping/unconscious targets were always considered willing. However, I cannot find any such rule now, if it exists at all.
Can someone please clarify the issue for me? Does such a rule exist, and if so, where?
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I once heard or read somewhere that sleeping/unconscious targets were always considered willing.
My wife will disagree with you on this one.
You are right, Unconscious creatures are always considered willing. Th section about spells and targets specify it clearly :
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Yay! So my plan should work then?
My wizard will never sleep again.
Date rape much.
Mr. Fishy never goes out with his wing man Roofie. Roofie always brings home a girl. Or that one time that mascot.
Check the description of the game condition unconscious. Sleeping <> unconscious.
Sleep will always make someone unconscious, but being unconscious is not always the same thing as sleeping.
Therefore, it looks like my trick will work.
I suspect you will have a hard time arguing that a sleeping person is not also unconscious.
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"Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points."
Thats from the SRD, so your DM may not allow your plan. I would suggest a spellcraft roll or a K.Arcana roll to see if it would work. Or kiddnap a random NPC first. If he allows that then it gives you a better position to do it again.
Surprising the DM can be risky. Because payback is hell.
Just in case bring Roofie.
Mr. Fishie is wise.
*Doesn't understand fish or goat languages*
Will someone get these animals out of here? They are getting noisy.
I'm trying to have a serious discussion here.
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:P (j/k)
Mr. Fishy and the Goat just sided with your DM.
AIRBREA! er...HUMAN!
The only problems I see is 1) Someone detects your scrying and sets a trap, and 2) Your DM allows him to wake when you touch him to cast the exit teleport at which point he is no longer willing.
Odds are, he would wake up after the teleport. Even if he doesn't that's what Reach Spell is for. I can teleport him without having to touch him.
The goat and the fish are noisy but they are right !! Asleep is not unconscious (if it was, then eveyone will fail his save when subject to a nightmare).
If you want your plan to work, you need a rogue with a sap to knock your target out (or some big barbarian with a merciful greataxe). Then you will be able to teleport him without problem.
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Check the description of the game condition unconscious. Sleeping <> unconscious.Sleep will always make someone unconscious, but being unconscious is not always the same thing as sleeping.
I suspect you will have a hard time arguing that a sleeping person is not also unconscious.
A sleeping character can be awoken. An unconscious character cannot be awoken; something must be done to remove the condition that has made him unconscious.
A sleeping character can perceive (and wake up to) a noise. An unconscious person cannot.
Unconsciousness is a defined game condition. It mentions nothing about sleep.
Helpless is a defined game condition. It specifically includes both sleep and unconsciousness as two of the reasons a character might be helpless.
There are multiple entries of text that list sleep and unconsciousness as separate elements in a list.
This isn't in the form of a proof. Personally, I'm satisfied that the asleep doesn't equate to unconscious, but I fully recognize it isn't consciousness, either.
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Wait wait wait...being asleep doesn't make you unconscious?
F***ing game terminology...
Okay, the only definition of sleep I can find in the rules is under the sleep spell, which basically says that if you are asleep you are helpless.
Unconsciousness, according to the rules, is when you are helpless and "knocked out". So WTF does "knocked out" mean? Presumably it means you have to be beaten into negative hit points, or have more nonlethal damage than your current hit point total. I guess you just have to wait for some action or condition to state that it causes unconsciousness.
The goat and the fish are noisy but they are right !! Asleep is not unconscious (if it was, then eveyone will fail his save when subject to a nightmare).
If you want your plan to work, you need a rogue with a sap to knock your target out (or some big barbarian with a merciful greataxe). Then you will be able to teleport him without problem.
Being willing is not the same as not getting a save. Even sleeping creatures get saves.
Nightmare has a save. Sleeping creatures still get saves. Teleport does not have a save. However, teleport can only target willing creatures. Luckily sleeping creatures are considered willing.
Wait wait wait...being asleep doesn't make you unconscious?
F***ing game terminology...
Yeah, a lot of these posters are totally over thinking it.
Unconcious creatures are considered willing for spells with a harmless save line, or that only affect willing targets. It's covered in the harmless part of the magic section.
Unconcious creatures are considered willing for spells with a harmless save line, or that only affect willing targets. It's covered in the harmless part of the magic section.
Are you of the opinion that teleport would not work then since it does not have (harmless) written on the save line?
Sleeping creatures are unconscious. Any other ruling is sheer, arbitrary gamesmanship. Why not just drop a rock on the PC's head, since clearly you're not willing to let him play the damned game?
Unconcious creatures are considered willing for spells with a harmless save line, or that only affect willing targets. It's covered in the harmless part of the magic section.Are you of the opinion that teleport would not work then since it does not have (harmless) written on the save line?
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Teleport restricts you to willing targets only -- Unconcious creatures are automatically considered willing, therefore you can teleport an unconcious character.
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I would provide the target a Perception check to wake up, albeit with a circumstance penalty for being asleep in the first place. :)
However, I would rule that "willingness" for something must be given freely and cannot be coerced or imposed.
Let's say you're sleeping peacefully and your Significant Other asks if you're willing to do something. Would you consider being asleep to be tacit acknowledgment that you're willing? I wouldn't.
A sleeping person is unconscious. Period. This is elementary school biology, folks.
Via Dictionary.com:
Unconscious
–adjective
1. not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition.
2. temporarily devoid of consciousness.
Conscious
–adjective
1. aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
3. having the mental faculties fully active
Consciousness
-noun
3. full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life: to regain consciousness after fainting.
Asleep
–adverb
1. in or into a state of sleep: He fell asleep quickly.
Sleep
–verb (used without object)
1. to take the rest afforded by a suspension of voluntary bodily functions and the natural suspension, complete or partial, of consciousness; cease being awake.
Sleeping creatures are unconscious. Any other ruling is sheer, arbitrary gamesmanship. Why not just drop a rock on the PC's head, since clearly you're not willing to let him play the damned game?No it is not gamesmanship.
Sleep definition: a period of rest for the body and mind, during which volition and consciousness are in abeyance and bodily functions are partially suspended; also described as a behavioral state, with characteristic immobile posture and diminished but readily reversible sensitivity to external stimuli.
Unconsciousness definition: insensible; incapable of responding to sensory stimuli and of having subjective experiences.
They are different. No gamesmanship. If the NPC is able to react to external stimuli, you know the PC messing with him he is asleep, if he cant react he is unconscious. If he is asleep it does not follow that he is unconscious.
Exactly. I don't see the problem in understanding the difference. If I beat the cr@p out of someone and they are are unable to respond to external stimuli they are "unconscious". They will wake up when they heal / recover and are able to respond to external stimuli. Someone who is asleep can respond to external stimuli. If I shake him he wakes up.
The dictionary disagrees with you. Part of the very first definition of "sleep" is "the natural suspension of consciousness", ie, being unconscious.
Roll a Spellcraft check.
@ Zurai
You don't run the game you don't get a vote.
Also
Unconscious
–adjective
1. not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition.
2. temporarily devoid of consciousness.
No mention of sleep.
Unconscious
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
or Mr. Fishy could pull out the fantasy creatures arguement. Logic in my Pathfinder troll bait.
@ RD
Your going to piss off your DM if you're not careful. So be careful.
No, actually, I'm not wrong. The dictionary does disagree with you. So does Merriam-Webster.com:
Definition of SLEEP
1: the natural periodic suspension of consciousness during which the powers of the body are restored — compare REM sleep, slow-wave sleep
So does google.com/dictionary:
sleep Noun /slēp/
A condition of body and mind such as that which typically recurs for several hours every night, in which the nervous system is relatively inactive, the eyes closed, the postural muscles relaxed, and consciousness practically suspended
So does dictionary.cambridge.com:
sleep noun ( NOT AWAKE ) /sliːp/
• [U] the resting state in which the body is not active and the mind is unconscious
So does encarta.msn.com:
sleep [ sleep ]
noun
Definition:1. state of not being awake: a state of partial or full unconsciousness in people and animals, during which voluntary functions are suspended and the body rests and restores itself, or a period spent in this state
It is my intention to scry on an enemy army's general until he falls asleep. Once he falls asleep and is relatively vulnerable, I want to attempt to teleport to him, snatch him up, and teleport back to MY army camp--essentially kidnapping him for interrogation purposes.
However, I can only teleport a willing target.
I once heard or read somewhere that sleeping/unconscious targets were always considered willing. However, I cannot find any such rule now, if it exists at all.
Can someone please clarify the issue for me? Does such a rule exist, and if so, where?
sA general not having bodyguard or other defenses while asleep should not be common in a world with magic. Be prepared if your DM is as evil as myself, and only trying to set you up.
The goat and the fish are noisy but they are right !! Asleep is not unconscious (if it was, then eveyone will fail his save when subject to a nightmare).
I can't believe that after all the times I have tried to argue against sleeping=willing I had not thought of that.
The goat and the fish are noisy but they are right !! Asleep is not unconscious (if it was, then eveyone will fail his save when subject to a nightmare).
I can't believe that after all the times I have tried to argue against sleeping=willing I had not thought of that.
Willing is not the same thing as not allowed a save.
The NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH disagrees with you.
Medical definitions are not exactly very good arguments except when you're talking medical treatment. The medical definitions for quite a few things are considerably different than the definitions we're familiar with.
Since we're not talking treating a person with a traumatic brain injury or one who is in a coma, a medical definition of consciousness isn't important. What is important is the common definition of consciousness, because that's the one that every single human on the face of the planet understands. And that definition disagrees with you.
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Regardless of whether asleep is unconscious or not...
Those quoting dictionaries or biology texts, please point me to where they tell me that a person holding some bat guano, mumbling a few words and then a large fiery explosion happens.
Please keep the argument to game terms.
Here is the reference in the PRD
-- david
Papa.DRB
No, actually, I'm not wrong.
Quoting multiple dictionaries won't help you. Ask a medic.
Please keep the argument to game terms.
That would be a wonderful argument if Paizo had not specifically said at several points in the past that they specifically left out common-sense definitions. It's absolutely common sense that a person who is a sleep is not conscious. He cannot consciously (that is, intentionally) respond to stimuli. Thus, he is unconscious. That is common sense, and Paizo has repeatedly said that common sense rules should be followed as if they were game rules.
Furthermore, THE RULES DO NOT DEFINE "ASLEEP". Thus, we are left with the common sense, common dictionary definition, WHICH DEFINES ASLEEP PARTIALLY AS BEING UNCONSCIOUS.
No, actually, I'm not wrong.Quoting multiple dictionaries won't help you. Ask a medic.
How about read what I posted? Quoting multiple dictionaries does help because I specifically said THE DICTIONARY DISAGREES.
Are you people all brain-dead?
Yes. We're all brain-dead, and you're the only concious one around here.
The NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH disagrees with you.
Medical definitions are not exactly very good arguments except when you're talking medical treatment. The medical definitions for quite a few things are considerably different than the definitions we're familiar with.Since we're not talking treating a person with a traumatic brain injury or one who is in a coma, a medical definition of consciousness isn't important. What is important is the common definition of consciousness, because that's the one that every single human on the face of the planet understands. And that definition disagrees with you.
Wait WHAT?
So if a doctor tells Mr. Fishy he's dead but the Webster says Mr. Fishy isn't then is Mr. Fishy still dead? What if some people don't speak English. That could be embarassing.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound,sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.If sleep=unconscious why are they listed separately?
Sleep does not equal unconsciousness. Unconsciousness is one aspect of sleep, and it's possible to be unconscious but not asleep. This isn't rocket science. It's not even high school logic. A contains B does not mean A equals B.
Can you knock out an elf? No you can't if sleep=unconsciousness.Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against
enchantment spells and effects.
Again, no one has made the claim that sleep and unconsciousness are the exact same thing. Stop throwing up straw men. Furthermore, elves are only immune to magical sleep; they still require normal sleep.
Creature making the check is asleep +10DCSo I do get a Perception Check if I am unconscious? No, only if sleep=unconsciousness, but medically that is not the case and it is pretty clear it ain't the case in Pathfinder either.
Again, you are unconscious when you are asleep, but you are not necessarily asleep when you are unconscious. You're trying to force an equation which no one has suggested.
No mention of sleep.Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having
negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
There doesn't have to be. Pathfinder does not define "asleep", so we use the common dictionary definition. That definition, in every case I have been able to find, includes unconsciousness.
He does not march himself to sleep. Unconsciousness is forced, there is no reaction to stimuli, recovery requires medical care or natural healing. A loud noise will wake you from sleep. There is a difference sleep does not equal unconsciousness in Pathfinder or IRL.It’s possible for a character to march into
unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
I know people who will not awaken from loud noises or being shaken, even when they're just napping, not even being asleep from exhaustion. I've literally had a 20 person party going in the same room and he slept through the whole thing. I guess that means, by your definition, he was asleep and unconscious.
No it is not common sense, just plain ignorance.Please keep the argument to game terms.
That would be a wonderful argument if Paizo had not specifically said at several points in the past that they specifically left out common-sense definitions. It's absolutely common sense that a person who is a sleep is not conscious. He cannot consciously (that is, intentionally) respond to stimuli. Thus, he is unconscious. That is common sense, and Paizo has repeatedly said that common sense rules should be followed as if they were game rules.
Furthermore, THE RULES DO NOT DEFINE "ASLEEP". Thus, we are left with the common sense, common dictionary definition, WHICH DEFINES ASLEEP PARTIALLY AS BEING UNCONSCIOUS.
I suggest you take that up with Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, the Oxford English Dictionary, and every other dictionary and language reference in the world, then, because you just called them all ignorant.
I would suggest that if you believe the definition of a word is different from what every dictionary in the world says the definition of that word is, maybe, just maybe, you are wrong.