This subject has been brought up in other theads...
But basically... Yes.
IGNORING the situation of the Eldritch Knight in comparison to the Alpha Magus,
It`s clearly the case that the ElK is rather underwhelming.
Taking that into account, isn`t it reasonable to expect a Complete Arcana book to include some new Eldritch Knight specific (or relevant) Feats or even Spells? Why isn`t the Eldritch Knight deserving of such goodies when other Core Full Casters apparently ARE receiving new options, spells, and so forth?
Is this going to happen? I don`t know, but I don`t get the impression it will.
Assuming the ElK doens`t get any love, where does that leave it?
Simply out-classed by the Magus? Mostly yes...
But as your example of multi-classing Magus and ElK shows, it remains to exist as ´filler´ for fighter-magic user combo´s, extending Caster Progression along with Full BAB. That means it`s Capstone is mostly irrelevant, but it DOES mean it can extend PrC`s like Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple, as well as Magus (i.e. if one decides that Full BAB/Casting is better than the high end Class Abilities). It also has synergy with combos like Sorceror and Paladin, but those are really just Stat synergies not the action-level synergies like Magus brings to the table... Paladin/Sorceror really needs a specific PrC like Rage Prophet to REALLY work well.
Personally, I don`t like the fact that Paizo is apparently ALREADY turning Core Class options into mechanical filler that can`t fulfill it`s own core premise competitively, but that looks like how it`s going... Then again, maybe the Eldritch Knight will get some love and most of the new Feats catering to the Magus will ALSO work well with the Eldritch Knight, and mayb even give it some of the action synergy the Magus enjoys... WHo knows?
Alright, my first thought upon seeing the Magus play-test was such: "Whats the point of Eldritch Knight prestige class then?"
Magus is a melee combat build, whose powers are all based around melee fighting. The Wiz5-Ftr1-Eldritch Knight is best for a ranged combat build (especially with ranged touch attack spells), with his lack of ability to cast in armor and a capstone whose most advantageous use is delivering touch-range spells as a follow-up to a ranged crit. The EK also has all those 7th-9th level wizard spells, which encourages standing back and casting over getting in melee
It looked somewhat promises since you can just take 4 levels in Magus and be qualified for the prestige class.
Seven levels. EK entry requires 3rd level spells, not 2nd.
Although the two classes do look good together, giving some possibilities to wreak havoc on anything in its path! Taking 10 levels in Magus and 10 in Eldritch Knight you get some good bonuses.
Not particularly. You get +2 BAB (and thus one very low bonus attack on a full attack), one bonus feat, Spell Critical, and qualifying for Greater Weapon Specialization over the straight magus. In exchange, you lose a level of spellcasting, get a -2 to Will saves, never get the ability to fight in heavy armor, miss out on 3 magus arcanas, never get rid of the -2 penalty with Spell Combat (perfectly negating your BAB advantage for Spell Combat), and don't get counterstrike or weapon call. You get no HP advantage because magus as a favored class gets you +1 hp/level, and the average roll on 1d8+1 is identical to 1d10.
If new Feats were included with the idea to be open to ElK,
besides exclusive ElK Feats, I think ones using Arcane Caster Level as main Pre-Req along with simply BEING an ElK or Magus make the most sense and would work best between both classes.
Got to say I've never been underwhelmed by the pathfinder eldritch knight.
I think the Eldritch Knight itself in Pathfinder is a considerable improvement over the 3.5. The fact that you can't combine it with Spellsword and Abjurant Champion is what makes a Pathfinder EK build not as tough as a 3.5.
Besides, if you get to 20th level, you're going to have 9th level spells. Just getting 7th and 8th levels spells that the Magus won't have access to is a considerable increase in power.
The Eldritch Knight with a Fighter/Wizard build has one significant advantage over the Magus.
When you want to you can fully put on your robe and wizard hat and fully walk the part in terms of spells, class abilities, and the what not. Hopefully it will see a bit more love in Ultimate Magic.
Ummm... Well, Robes of Arcane Heritage or whatnot will bump up your Class Abilities from your Caster Class but you certainly won`t be EQUAL in that regard (esp. given that a Full Class Wizard can also grab those Robes). So you can have almost equal spells, gaining 9th level spells if you want. But besides the capstone there isn`t anything compelling about the class, which is why I think it works best as filler for other melee/caster hybrids like Arcane Archer. The only `benefit` of it over most of it`s duration is that for giving up 1 CL up front, you get Full BAB and better HP (and Fort Save)... I GUESS more HP and Fort Save is nice, but Full BAB is mostly irrelevant to using Full Caster abilities... IF you really want it, any caster can get TRANSFORMATION and enjoy Full BAB (real full BAB, not the less than version ElK`s have from their requisite Caster Levels).
Errataìng ElK seems like the best solution if people arne`t to ignore it (except for mechanical filler)
PRPG changed the game, class abilities are king now, so merely full BAB and CL progression with no synergy just doesn`t cut it.
Also, the problem with Feats is that they need to be REALLY GOOD because you`re giving up normal Combat/Casting Feats to take them... Assuming that, it seems harder to balance a Feat for BOTH ElK AND Magus given the Feat should be REALLY strong for an ElK and NOT SO strong for the Magus who already has tons of synergy and whatnot.
opinions
Um... I found it does just fine as is. Got to say I love having heal and righteous might for my witch/fighter eldritch knight (weapon master). Full plate and weapon training, is a great thing.
Granted I'm not casting ninth level spells but then, I wasn't expecting too.
The EK's big problem is that you have one swift action per round, and the EK has three different abilities he'll want to use every round that use a swift action.
The EK's big problem is that you have one swift action per round, and the EK has three different abilities he'll want to use every round that use a swift action.
But he won't want to do all three each round.
He might want to quicken a spell -- which means he probably doesn't want to arcane strike.
He might want to full attack with arcane strike -- which means he's choosing to to quicken a spell -- which is fine since he only has so many quickened spells per day.
He might want to full attack then quicken a spell -- if he gets spell critical off great that saves him the quickened spell he was going to cast for later, if not he can go ahead and cast the quickened spell he has ready.
The EK's big problem is that you have one swift action per round, and the EK has three different abilities he'll want to use every round that use a swift action.But he won't want to do all three each round.
He might want to quicken a spell -- which means he probably doesn't want to arcane strike.
He might want to full attack with arcane strike -- which means he's choosing to to quicken a spell -- which is fine since he only has so many quickened spells per day.
He might want to full attack then quicken a spell -- if he gets spell critical off great that saves him the quickened spell he was going to cast for later, if not he can go ahead and cast the quickened spell he has ready.
I wasn't really referring to quickened spell.
Arcane Strike, arcane armor, his capstone.
Well, and I suppose quickened spell adds a fourth swift action.
The EK's big problem is that you have one swift action per round, and the EK has three different abilities he'll want to use every round that use a swift action.But he won't want to do all three each round.
He might want to quicken a spell -- which means he probably doesn't want to arcane strike.
He might want to full attack with arcane strike -- which means he's choosing to to quicken a spell -- which is fine since he only has so many quickened spells per day.
He might want to full attack then quicken a spell -- if he gets spell critical off great that saves him the quickened spell he was going to cast for later, if not he can go ahead and cast the quickened spell he has ready.
I wasn't really referring to quickened spell.
Arcane Strike, arcane armor, his capstone.
Well, and I suppose quickened spell adds a fourth swift action.
The Magus suffers from a similar problem, although a high-level magus has plenty-enough *power* as it is. His real problem is *sustainability*, in that he shines for awhile, then runs out of juice real quick, and from what I hear, is too weak at lower levels.
If we fix those by rearranging the ability progression (rather than adding to it) and give him an additional pool to tap on for fueling his arcana abilities, he'll be set. He just needs some tweaking. There's no need at all to reinvent him.
As for the Eldritch Knight, I see some potential here for a feat that fixes this problem for both classes whilst limiting relatively exclusive to them- a feat that allows more than 1 swift action per round (although not more than 1 quickened spell a round), with a requisite that includes both fighter and arcane caster levels.
I wasn't really referring to quickened spell.
Arcane Strike, arcane armor, his capstone.
Well, and I suppose quickened spell adds a fourth swift action.
Arcane armor? You are serious? That's a trap feat for almost everyone. Two feats so I can fail? No thank you I'll stick with still spell and actually have an AC.
His capstone isn't even going to be regularly available. Arcane strike won't always be needed, Arcane armor is a trap, and quicken spell won't happen that much either.
Honestly If you have unlimited any spell quicken spells then ok. Or if still spell wasn't available. Otherwise it's just poor action planning on the part of the player.
Yes, as James said.
Arcane armor? You are serious? That's a trap feat for almost everyone. Two feats so I can fail? No thank you I'll stick with still spell and actually have an AC.His capstone isn't even going to be regularly available. Arcane strike won't always be needed, Arcane armor is a trap, and quicken spell won't happen that much either.
Honestly If you have unlimited any spell quicken spells then ok. Or if still spell wasn't available. Otherwise it's just poor action planning on the part of the player.
1. I agree on arcane armor. The feat should remove the swift action to activate it. At that point it seems meh.
2. If he goes with a high crit weapon on 15-20, has a 16BAB for 4+1(haste) attacks/round he'll regularly get a crit every full attack action.
But he won't have the swift action available for arcane strike which is annoying.
Compared with the magus getting up to 6th level spells, the EK can still almost everything and still have 2 full levels over him. He'll get his swift spell off each round wielding a falchion, while the magus is going to be hoping he's allowed dervish dance with a scimitar.
-James
Still Spell? Really? If and EK relies on that to do all his casting, it basically gimps him a second spell level. He'll be behind Magus in casting for half his career, he won't surpass Magus until 15th and he'll only be 2 levels ahead at levels 19 and 20. So maybe if I was doing a one shot at level 20 I could see doing this, but otherwise it seems like a horrible idea. What am I missing here?
Still Spell? Really? If and EK relies on that to do all his casting, it basically gimps him a second spell level. He'll be behind Magus in casting for half his career, he won't surpass Magus until 15th and he'll only be 2 levels ahead at levels 19 and 20. So maybe if I was doing a one shot at level 20 I could see doing this, but otherwise it seems like a horrible idea. What am I missing here?
Arcane armor? You are serious? That's a trap feat for almost everyone. Two feats so I can fail? No thank you I'll stick with still spell and actually have an AC.His capstone isn't even going to be regularly available. Arcane strike won't always be needed, Arcane armor is a trap, and quicken spell won't happen that much either.
Honestly If you have unlimited any spell quicken spells then ok. Or if still spell wasn't available. Otherwise it's just poor action planning on the part of the player.
1. I agree on arcane armor. The feat should remove the swift action to activate it. At that point it seems meh.
2. If he goes with a high crit weapon on 15-20, has a 16BAB for 4+1(haste) attacks/round he'll regularly get a crit every full attack action.
But he won't have the swift action available for arcane strike which is annoying.
Compared with the magus getting up to 6th level spells, the EK can still almost everything and still have 2 full levels over him. He'll get his swift spell off each round wielding a falchion, while the magus is going to be hoping he's allowed dervish dance with a scimitar.
-James
Casting in full plate armour and looking awesome-cool whilst you're at it! Rawr! XD
Still Spell? Really? If and EK relies on that to do all his casting, it basically gimps him a second spell level. He'll be behind Magus in casting for half his career, he won't surpass Magus until 15th and he'll only be 2 levels ahead at levels 19 and 20. So maybe if I was doing a one shot at level 20 I could see doing this, but otherwise it seems like a horrible idea. What am I missing here?Oh I'm not a fan of still spell, but it works.
At low levels the magus is in light armor and the EK can get by with either mage armor or mithril chain. Depending upon extra sources there are ways to lower ASF.
Seeing however that we're talking about spell critical the capstone of the EK, we're talking about CL 16-20.
At this point the magus is just getting his top casting.. that is 6th level spells like greater dispel magic, while the EK has had 7th level spells for a full level. At this point the magus is in heavy armor if he hasn't gone a DEX route via weapon finesse/dervish dance, and the EK can be as well via still spell.
Is still spell optimal? Not really, but seeing that a 16th level EK can use still spell on everything and come out looking better than the magus should say something about the magus.
At low levels the magus is very poor. At high levels the magus falls very much behind the EK.
-James
If the magus is poor at low levels, the EK is even poorer.
At low levels, the Magus is actually on par with the EK in terms of spell level. (The EK is a level back due to fighter) The Magus can cast in light armour, the EK either has to rely on Mage Armour, which may need to be recast and won't keep up with magic armour, be a spell level behind to still, or take a feat that will be worthless at high levels.
At level 7 the magus gets medium armour while the EK gets the worst level in his progression. To keep up with AC the EK has to blow another feat or stay a spell level behind. He can stay in his Chain Shirt and be only 2 AC back, or keep relying on Mage Armour and be 4-5 AC back.
At level 13 the Magus get heavy armour and the EK can cast his first quickened stilled spell. The EK can't take a feat now, his only way to keep up is to lose his edge in casting, putting him at the same level as the Magus.
By level 16, the EK is better than the Magus at casting no matter what (the Magus will always have the edge at action economy), but up to that point he either had lower level spells, less AC, or less feats; or a combination of the three.
Really, now that I think about it, losing the feats is probably his best option since the EK gets five bonus feats and the Magus only gets three. Stilling at high levels and eating the feats is likely better than trying to wear Mithral Chainmail and using up swift actions. So I can see when Still Spell becomes useful.
Still Spell? Really? If and EK relies on that to do all his casting, it basically gimps him a second spell level. He'll be behind Magus in casting for half his career, he won't surpass Magus until 15th and he'll only be 2 levels ahead at levels 19 and 20. So maybe if I was doing a one shot at level 20 I could see doing this, but otherwise it seems like a horrible idea. What am I missing here?Oh I'm not a fan of still spell, but it works.
At low levels the magus is in light armor and the EK can get by with either mage armor or mithril chain. Depending upon extra sources there are ways to lower ASF.
Seeing however that we're talking about spell critical the capstone of the EK, we're talking about CL 16-20.
At this point the magus is just getting his top casting.. that is 6th level spells like greater dispel magic, while the EK has had 7th level spells for a full level. At this point the magus is in heavy armor if he hasn't gone a DEX route via weapon finesse/dervish dance, and the EK can be as well via still spell.
Is still spell optimal? Not really, but seeing that a 16th level EK can use still spell on everything and come out looking better than the magus should say something about the magus.
At low levels the magus is very poor. At high levels the magus falls very much behind the EK.
-James
If the magus is poor at low levels, the EK is even poorer.
At low levels, the Magus is actually on par with the EK in terms of spell level. (The EK is a level back due to fighter) The Magus can cast in light armour, the EK either has to rely on Mage Armour, which may need to be recast and won't keep up with magic armour, be a spell level behind to still, or take a feat that will be worthless at high levels.
At level 7 the magus gets medium armour while the EK gets the worst level in his progression. To keep up with AC the EK has to blow another feat or stay a spell level behind. He can stay in his Chain Shirt and...
There is, perhaps, 1 advantage to using mage armour/bracers of armour: it sticks with you when you polymorph.
Actually, armour bonuses from items cease to function when you polymorph into a form that doesn't keep your equipment. Mage Armour would still work, though, since it's a spell effect.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function).
I suppose "armor bonuses" can be interpreted as "bonuses from armour" which would include all effects on your armour including slick, SR, fortification, ghost touch, etc.
But more likely it refers to the specific bonus type "Armour Bonus" which can be granted by armour, bracers of armor, iuon stones, etc.
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It refers to armor bonuses, which includes AC bonuses from armor or bracers of armor. It does not refer to the AC bonuses provided by ioun stones (that's an insight bonus), rings of protection (deflection), or natural armor (natural armor).
Armor bonuses cease to function. But not all your AC bonuses are armor bonuses.