What is the stance on Golarian elves and lifespan? The rules conflict notably with the flavour text. In the flavour text, they can potentially live for thousands of years, and the only real way to tell their age is by their face looking more handsome and ethereal. You almost can't go two pages in Elves of Golarian without being reminded of a lifespan that will see monuments erode into dust.
In the rules, their average max lifespan is two centuries longer than dwarves, far short of a millennium (750 is the max). Conversely, dwarves are not described as a nearly timeless race (barring their craft-work), and in fact their comparable longevity is heavily downplayed. Elves physically suffer from age like any human, becoming weak and frail with time. Because of their lower Constitution, an appreciable fraction of elves will flat-out die at 350; as it's quite possible for an NPC to be two below average, and thus be born with a 6 Con, where the -6 from venerable will knock them to zero.
Ah, yes, that would be because all PC elves are from the "Not Awesome Elves" subrace. The "Awesome Elf" subrace lives forever, gets more powerful every 100 years, but has the disadvantage of always having to be an NPC.
I've actually kind of wondered in modern d20 games if age is as big a deal as it once was. What I mean by this was, in years gone by, when ghosts did "age" damage and haste could make you an old man, it made sense that being from a race that could live 1000 years was an advantage. Now it seems to be mainly a roleplaying hook, as there aren't nearly as many things that age you in the game.
Heck, even a curse that "moves you up an age category" wouldn't be much different between an elf or a human, because the elf would age, say, 1000 years compared the the humans, say, 15, but the mechanical effects would be the same.
So I guess what I'm saying is, do we need to be as careful to make sure that elves have limited life spans now as we were when living 1000 years actually had more of a mechanical benefit?
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For my home games, I make elven lifespans comparable to those of dwarves, so both races have a lifespan in the several centuries range, but not the ridiculousness of elves who are literally older than entire human civilizations. I mostly do that so that elves don't seem quite so unapproachable and alien to my players, and to avoid accusations of elven incompetence or invulnerability. To wit: If elves live several times longer than humans then they must, of necessity, either be morons ("Humans can get to level 20 in 5 years! What are you, stupid?") or unbeatable ("Cripes! Humans can get to level 20 in 5 years, and this guy is 500! Run!") The argument is a little facetious, but you see my point.
Of course, I also don't use half-elves or half-orcs in my game, so take that as you will.
Jeremy Puckett
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Elves should be alien and aloof, timeless in their attitude and actions... not just because of the old literature... but to give some differences.
having just long eared, aesthetically nice, three hugging/forest delving humans and calling them elves its soooo boring!
An elf should not have human attitudes... its not a human!
Creative Director
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If you're talking about flavor text from "Elves of Golarion," then it's important to remember that there's a little bit of 3.5 clinging to that book. It was, after all, written before we had our Pathfinder RPG out. I really wish we could revise that book to bring it more in line with the Pathfinder RPG design philosophy... but that's unlikely to happen since we still have plenty in stock and since the revisions would be relatively minor in the long run: AKA just not worth the trouble, really.
Elves in Pathfinder live for hundreds of years as a general rule. The PFRPG covers elf ages on page 169, where it caps an elf's maximum age at 750 years. That's pretty much how long elves can live in Golarion as well... but there are some cases where elves live a lot longer than that. Those elves are special cases, though, and going forward if we DO keep any of these super ancient elves as part of the world, they'll have key and important campaign roles to play.
On the same topic, about elves longevity, how is everyone dealing with their rate of maturity?
I mean, I personally always used the old AD&D tables for aging, which makes the elves age much slower than humans of course, but also get mature much slower.
They are only adult (21) at 176 for example.
Along years of gaming it never brought a question, but recently a few players argued that they shouldn't get to adult age slower, they should rather have a normal childhood and teenage, parallel to the human aging, and then they should slow down their aging dramatically, once arrived at adult.
What do you people think?
If you're talking about flavor text from "Elves of Golarion," then it's important to remember that there's a little bit of 3.5 clinging to that book. It was, after all, written before we had our Pathfinder RPG out. I really wish we could revise that book to bring it more in line with the Pathfinder RPG design philosophy... but that's unlikely to happen since we still have plenty in stock and since the revisions would be relatively minor in the long run: AKA just not worth the trouble, really.
But that's the thing, the aging of elves hasn't changed at all from 3.5 to Pathfinder, so I'd be really surprised if an updated book would differ its stance on elven psychology in regards to their lifespan.
The disconnect remains. The elves as a race seemingly obsess over how ageless they are, yet become weak and frail like children in less than three centuries. Their lives aren't drastically longer than a dwarf's, especially when so many more (comparatively) will succumb to frailty at 350, and dwarves are almost never described as being as timeless as the rocks they quarry.
I hope not many people in the setting wax poetic about how long elves live, citing the handful of exceptions that live for millennium; because then one could wax poetic about humanity being a font of power and longevity (Aroden, the Runelords, Geb, liches in general, etc)
If you're talking about flavor text from "Elves of Golarion," then it's important to remember that there's a little bit of 3.5 clinging to that book. It was, after all, written before we had our Pathfinder RPG out. I really wish we could revise that book to bring it more in line with the Pathfinder RPG design philosophy... but that's unlikely to happen since we still have plenty in stock and since the revisions would be relatively minor in the long run: AKA just not worth the trouble, really.
Elves in Pathfinder live for hundreds of years as a general rule. The PFRPG covers elf ages on page 169, where it caps an elf's maximum age at 750 years. That's pretty much how long elves can live in Golarion as well... but there are some cases where elves live a lot longer than that. Those elves are special cases, though, and going forward if we DO keep any of these super ancient elves as part of the world, they'll have key and important campaign roles to play.
Hmm, SKR just replied differently in the Elves of Golarion thread--
What is the stance on Golarian elves and lifespan, as the rules conflict notably with the flavour text. In the flavour text, they can potentially live for thousands of years, and the only real way to tell their age is by their face looking more handsome and ethereal. You almost can't go two pages without being reminded of a lifespan that will see monuments erode into dust.
In the rules, their average max lifespan is two centuries longer than dwarves, far short of a millennium (750 is the max). Conversely, dwarves are not described as a nearly timeless race (barring their craft-work), and in fact their comparable longevity is heavily downplayed. Elves physically suffer from age like any human, becoming weak and frail with time. Because of their lower Constitution, an appreciable fraction of elves will flat-out die at 350; as it's quite possible for an NPC to be two below average, and thus be born with a 6 Con, where the -6 from venerable will knock them to zero.
Golarion elves don't follow the lifespan in the Core Rulebook. There are many situations where world-specific material overrides a general game rule.
So who wins the fight? James has a lot going for him with the T-Rex thing, but SKR was previously an Umber Hulk and has Amiri to back him up, so it's a tough one. ^_^
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On the same topic, about elves longevity, how is everyone dealing with their rate of maturity?
I mean, I personally always used the old AD&D tables for aging, which makes the elves age much slower than humans of course, but also get mature much slower.
They are only adult (21) at 176 for example.
Along years of gaming it never brought a question, but recently a few players argued that they shouldn't get to adult age slower, they should rather have a normal childhood and teenage, parallel to the human aging, and then they should slow down their aging dramatically, once arrived at adult.
What do you people think?
It all depends on which lore you use(their are so many different types of lore), sometimes even physical science plays a role in that rationale.
For example: Say that Elves live to be 750, where Humans live to be about 75. Does that mean that Elves don't hit maturity until 150, as Humans do around age 15? To me that just doesn't make any sense. Their survival rate would be very low.
Unless you say that far enough back in history Elves were outsiders from another plane of existence, like in the D&D lore. So on "Their World" time is different and goes by slower, so their age progression was drawn out compared to the new world they came to inhabit.
One of the most popular Elves in D&D lore is Drizzt Do'urden. Even though he is Drow, they still have the same life-span as their surface cousins. When he came to the surface in the third book he was only about 5 decades old but he was well capable of defending himself and was easily as strong as any man. But according to the above rationale he would have been like a 5 year old human child? I don't think so.
Each race just has a different attitude about life, for the Elves it is unique. The reason most Elves take so long to mature, is their attitude at life. "If I'm gonna be here a while, what's the rush?"
In other lore, to be more specific, the "Original" in Scandanavian Mythology, Elves or Álfar were divine beings, basically immortals. They were graceful and elegant, and even at times mischevious. They were broken up into two types the ljósálfar and the svartálfar, the light-elves and the dark-elves. They were somewhat akin to angels. They did interact with humans quite a bit, and were even thought to be fascinated with humans, even to the point of inter-breeding. Sounds familiar doesn't it? I could go into a great amount of detail about this subject but I don't want to get to far from the point of the OP.
I personally believe in RPG lore that Elves have long life spans because of their genetic code, and in times long past became an "enlightened race" and the magic that flows through them prolonged their lives. They have however adapted to life stuck on a "faster" world and still mature at relatively the same age as a human child with a slight adjusment of about 10-20 years.
With that all said I think Paizo has done a fantastic job with the lore, and are pretty much "true" to the element of the Elves. I have seen the lore of elves evolve and change dramatically with each system,(don't get me started on the "Eladrin") but what it boils down to is just take it with a grain of salt and not to get too wrapped up in the specifics. After all it's not like the characters will die of old age right.....right?
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Actually that generally IS the Elven trope. In most classic settings the Elves are in decline, being hard pressed by more metabolically active types such as Humans and Orcs. The Lord of the Rings after all opens with most of the Elves having already grown "weary of the world" and left for the Undying (and unreachable to mortals) Lands of the West. Faerunian Elves were in Retreat until just before the year of the Spell Plague. And Melinbonean, Vadagh, and Greyhawk elves... were just decadently self-absorbed.
Yeah, I have noticed that commonality over the years and different editions of D&D, and I've learned to accepted it the way it is, but in retrospect it doesn't make any sense. I mean with all the wars and tribulations they have endured throughout the ages, and if it takes Elven children 150 years to mature, they would eventually turn into a loosely-knit Lord of the Flies like society and inevitably destroy themselves.
All I'm saying is that it is safe to say their is no "true" source that says it has to be one way or the other. The way I have always played any of my Elf characters regardless of what any books, or rules lawyers say, is that they typically mature around the age of 25, but don't actually become adults until around 50. Time essentially still passes the same for them, but their attunement with magic just prolongs their lives. Not stretching it out over time, but extending it.
I mean think of the poor Elven Mother's who would have to breast feed their children for 15 years! And not to mention changing dirty garments for 30 years, that is brutal. ;P
Why does a new thread get started on this topic every few months?
At any rate, you can think of the gap between when elves have physically matured (i.e. sometime in their 20s) and when they are considered 'adults' (i.e. centennial birthday) as the difference between turning 18 vs. turning 21. Where humans only have to endure 3 years of quasi-adulthood before the establishment gives them the right to not only go off to war but have a beer, elves have to endure about 80 years of such nonsense before reaching the age of majority.
Why do you think there are so many half-elves running around?
"Damn, the elders say I can't take a wife for another 70 years, but those human girls in that village are attractive now and will be long-gone before a wife enters the scene..."
Here's a visual aid I made a while back to illustrate the matter for those of you who don't quite 'get it': Beer & Half-Elves
Why do you think there are so many half-elves running around?
"Damn, the elders say I can't take a wife for another 70 years, but those human girls in that village are attractive now and will be long-gone before a wife enters the scene..."
Heh, excellent point . . . ;)
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On the same topic, about elves longevity, how is everyone dealing with their rate of maturity?
For my games, I generally rule that elves are physically mature around 30-40 (so about twice as long as humans), but that they aren't considered adults until around 75 to 100. Basically, elven society is so choked by the conservative nature of a race with nearly-immortal elders (even with my shorter-lived elves) that young elves just aren't given permission to go anywhere or do anything until then. I've had my players meet a few elves who chose to leave their society early and are basically children in the eyes of other elves, kind of like humans would see 13- or 14-year-old runaways.
As well, in some games, I've implied that an elf who leaves home too early hasn't learned enough about his own longevity to avoid long-term mental problems. Elves who wait until they're adults to meet other races have various psychological adaptations in place to let them deal with the fact that any non-elf they start to like is basically going to be dead in an eyeblink. They've heard all the lectures, done all the right meditation, that sort of thing. An elf who skips all that to get to the "fun stuff" winds up being miserable or a sociopath because he just doesn't have the psychological mechanisms in place to deal with grief and loss. It would be like taking a 10-year-old human and putting him into a world filled with magical, talking puppies who fell over dead every couple of weeks. ;_;
Jeremy Puckett
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Your assumptions have a common fallacy that most people bring to discussions of Elvish (or any other demi-human type species) You look at them, model their psychology and society on Human terms. The point however is that Elves are not Human, and don't have a Human psychology.
I don't see how you made that connection, I wasn't modeling them on human terms, in fact you could do that with any form of life and still get the same result. Imagine a baby giraffe that came from the womb and wasn't able to walk for the first year of it's life, Giraffe's would become extinct almost over night, it is the cycle of life for any species, they learn to adapt, survival of the fittest. Taking a century and a half just to mature is not survival. All I'm saying is that for an Elven child to be prone for such an extended period of time would put a severe hinderance on their entire existence. It just doesn't make any sense to think this way about any species, Dwarves, Halflings and so on. The Shorter lived races just have more of a zest for life, and seem to live it at full throttle, compared to the longer lived races.
If you said it takes 150 years for them to mature mentally not physically, now that's a different story...but even still every Elf is different and some could take longer or shorter than others.
To say that it takes Elves 150 years to mature physically is where the fallacy begins, that is where the modeling of human society comes into play. To say that because Elves live so long they "must" mature at a much slower rate. like I said before the best way to look at it is, time is still time, and it passes the same for everybody, but their attunement with magic just prolongs their lives. It doesn't stretch it out over time, it extends it beyond the average of other mortal life-forms.
One interesting "Elf" variant are the Elori of Arcanis, which are major subversions of the classic tropes. These "Elves" were created as a slave race by the ruling Sessethegoran Empire (mainly the classic reptile races with Yuan Ti and Naga as the rulers). The Emperor demanded these specifications.
And so things worked quite well, until of course the inevitable revolution and overthrow, and the first meeting with Men but that's a story for another time. By the way on Arcanis the term "elf" is a Human pegorative. Most Ellori take offense at the term.
I actually played in a campaign similar that over 10 years ago, where a large civilization of Frost Giants had held Ice Elves as slaves for centuries, we came along and helped spark their eventual rebellion and escape, it was an epic session to say the least. Thanks for reminding me!
Your assumptions have a common fallacy that most people bring to discussions of Elvish (or any other demi-human type species) You look at them, model their psychology and society on Human terms. The point however is that Elves are not Human, and don't have a Human psychology.
Most humans don't have human psychology, in that most psychological models are based heavily on cultural values, and cultures, generally speaking, vary a heck of a lot. Letting humans have myriad cultures and accompanying psychology but locking all the other races into a monoculture and a single society starts to look like Star Trek, with Vulcans as the space elves and the Romulans as the space drow, Klingons as the warlike orcs, and the Ferengi as the miserly gnomes.
There are all sorts of ways to model it, but some are more realistic than others. If you want incredibly long-lived elves, one of the more important questions is of what is maturity for an elf and what sort of elves are we talking about? Fantasy elves can range from three foot tall Elfquest elves to seven-foot-tall creatures that look like the NBA as re-imagined by Erte. Hell, you could have all of these be the same species, with the Elfquest halfling-size ones being the elementary schoolkids out getting into mischief, the five-foot or so ones being the middle school kids, the same-as-human-height ones being the high school age elves, and the seven-foot Erte creatures being the mature adults. If you want the wisdom of the elves to be something gained with age, make it so that the PCs are only allowed to play the elementary and middle school age elves, or maybe high school at high levels. The adult elves are taking tea with mature dragons and talk about the rise and fall of human civilizations the way modern human suburbanites talk about people putting in a new strip mall.
Culture? Why does there have to be only one one elven culture, apart from shorthand?
Consider this stolen :-) Excellent simulationist reasoning leading to a coherent explanation for a genre convention, I applaud.
Thanks for saying so. :)