Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The second spell I've grown fond of is Elemental Magic Missile. 1d4+8 damage per missile times 5 missiles.How are you getting 1d4+8 damage on magic missile?The sample character was a 12th level Half-Orc Sorcerer of the Draconic (Brass) blood line.
I use Elemental Spell to convert the Magic Missile to Fire damage.
Draconic means I get an extra point per die if the damage type matches my Draconic Forbear type. Brass dragons breathe fire. That brings it to 1d4+1+1.
Half-Orc racial favored class bonus is +0.5 per caster level in Sorcerer on Fire spells. That's an additional +6. So 1d4+1+1+2 total.
Anything with a Resist Energy [fire] spell is going to laugh at that spell...
The half-orc bonus to damage is a bonus to the damage caused by the SPELL, not to each MISSILE. It's no different from the Intense Spells class ability of the evoker specialist wizard.
12th level fireball: 10d6+6
12th level scorching ray: (4d6 x3) +6
12th level elemental (fire) magic missile (1d4+1 x5) +6
12th level elemental (fire) acid arrow: 2d4+6 damage on a hit, and 2d4 damage/round for 4 rounds.
His magic missile spell would cause 5d4+5, +6.
Battlefield control aside, easily the best way to stop yourself from getting killed in combat is to kill the guy that wants to kill you.
In that regard, Direct Damage Evocations are better than any other type of spells at doing this.
... Except for summoning spells (creatures both do damage and absorb attacks) and the few spells that mix battlefield control AND direct damage (black tentacles, etc.). Granted, neither of these tend to kill as fast as direct damage spells, but they absorb/prevent attacks from opponents so it's somewhat of a wash.
SoD/SoS can take out opponents quickly, but most of them are "all or nothing." Opponents that save (or have some sort of immunity to/protection against that effect, such as death ward or magic circle) tend to be completely unaffected (basically, you "wasted"* an action/spell slot).
*- Note: this is an attitude that some have.
However, as Ravingdork points out (as do other posters), the "best" type of spell is situational. Battlefield control and SoD/SoS tends to be more versatile (optimal in a wider set of circumstances), but direct damage is not "useless," as some hold, either. IMO, one of the best things about the complexity of D&D/Pathfinder is that no one spell type/tactic is optimal in all circumstances.
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The half-orc bonus to damage is a bonus to the damage caused by the SPELL, not to each MISSILE. It's no different from the Intense Spells class ability of the evoker specialist wizard.
12th level fireball: 10d6+6
12th level scorching ray: (4d6 x3) +6
12th level elemental (fire) magic missile (1d4+1 x5) +6
12th level elemental (fire) acid arrow: 2d4+6 damage on a hit, and 2d4 damage/round for 4 rounds.
His magic missile spell would cause 5d4+5, +6.
From the PRD:
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell.
Also from the PRD:
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.
From the APG:
Sorcerer: Add +1/2 to fire spell damage.
Note that neither the Draconic Bloodline NOR the Sorcerer bonus make the explicit limitation to 'once per spell' rather than 'once per damage causing element of the spell'. Evokers do.
This may be an errata item that needs fixing, but nothing in the rules as written indicates that the Half-Orc sorcerer bonus works like the Intense Spells class ability, and the Half-Orc sorcerer in question is getting both bonuses, which is why it's possibly broken.
Honestly, if I were reconciling the set of bonuses, I'd make the Evokers work like Half-Orc sorcerers and add their bonus per missile or ray, rather than vice versa. Two of the three spells where this is applicable can still be negated by a Resist Energy spell; the third has to be done within Melee range, and there are feats designed to specifically negate one Ray hitting.
*Saya a bunch of stuff about bonus damage to spells*
I wonder if the bonus damage is added in before or after the effects of a metamagic feat. Would a 10th-level half-orc draconic sorcerer be doing ( 10d6 + 15 ) x 1.5? Or would he be doing (10d6 x 1.5 ) + 15?
Talking about averages, its the difference between 67 and 75 damage.
Last I checked, they removed the area dispel option in Pathfinder, which is what totally hoses the dispeller when it comes to dispelling invisibility.
Greater Dispel Magic still has the area dispel option. Of course, it's only a 20 foot burst, so it's still pretty hard to get the flying invisible spellcaster with it :)
*Saya a bunch of stuff about bonus damage to spells*I wonder if the bonus damage is added in before or after the effects of a metamagic feat. Would a 10th-level half-orc draconic sorcerer be doing ( 10d6 + 15 ) x 1.5? Or would he be doing (10d6 x 1.5 ) + 15?
Talking about averages, its the difference between 67 and 75 damage.
According to an earlier clarification the dice are multiplied by 1.5 then bonuses are added in later. I don't do it that way in my games, and it is not an issue so far so you may be able to get your DM to let everything get multiplied.
One of the first lessons every good combat engineer learns is that every obstacle can be breached and the second is cover every obstacle with fire.
Battlefield control spells are designed to delay and channel your enemy allowing you and your allies to bring overwhelming fire power to bare against them at the point and time of your choosing.
According to an earlier clarification the dice are multiplied by 1.5 then bonuses are added in later. I don't do it that way in my games, and it is not an issue so far so you may be able to get your DM to let everything get multiplied.
I wonder if the bonus damage is added in before or after the effects of a metamagic feat. Would a 10th-level half-orc draconic sorcerer be doing ( 10d6 + 15 ) x 1.5? Or would he be doing (10d6 x 1.5 ) + 15?Talking about averages, its the difference between 67 and 75 damage.
Ooh. I've been looking for an official ruling on that (and I've always played it that it's multiply the results of the dice, then add the bonuses).
Can you get me a link to the ruling, please?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The half-orc bonus to damage is a bonus to the damage caused by the SPELL, not to each MISSILE. It's no different from the Intense Spells class ability of the evoker specialist wizard.
12th level fireball: 10d6+6
12th level scorching ray: (4d6 x3) +6
12th level elemental (fire) magic missile (1d4+1 x5) +6
12th level elemental (fire) acid arrow: 2d4+6 damage on a hit, and 2d4 damage/round for 4 rounds.
His magic missile spell would cause 5d4+5, +6.
From the PRD:
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell.Also from the PRD:
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.From the APG:
Sorcerer: Add +1/2 to fire spell damage.Note that neither the Draconic Bloodline NOR the Sorcerer bonus make the explicit limitation to 'once per spell' rather than 'once per damage causing element of the spell'. Evokers do.
This may be an errata item that needs fixing, but nothing in the rules as written indicates that the Half-Orc sorcerer bonus works like the Intense Spells class ability, and the Half-Orc sorcerer in question is getting both bonuses, which is why it's possibly broken.
Each ability calls out what it does.
Intense spells adds damage to the spell.
Sorcerer ability adds damage to each die.
HO Sorc ability adds damage to the spell.
One of these is not like the other ones; that one is the sorcerer bonus that adds to each.
The HO Sorc ability doesn't need to call out any special exceptions because it says what it does and does what it says: It adds damage to the SPELL. It would only have to call it out explicitly if it added a damage bonus repeatedly and separately to each subunit of a spell, since no other ability that adds a static bonus works that way without specifically calling it out.
It would be my opinion that it also fails the simple face-logic test; one interpretation (per SPELL) increases the average damage of a 12th level MM spell by 34% (17.5 > 23.5), while the alternate interpretation (per MISSILE) increases the average damage of a 12th level MM spell by (17.5 > 47.5) 171%.
One interpretation gives you a free half-strength Empower to the spell.
One gives you a free TRIPLE-STRENGTH (and then some) Empower to the spell.
(BTW, at 20th level, it would be +57% for ‘per spell’ and +286% for ‘per missile.)
Which seems to you to be the more rational interpretation?
That said, by all means I think a FAQ tag is appropriate. As the designer I thought that calling it out as bonus damage to the spell was sufficiently clear as RAI and RAW. If it's not, then an official erratum is certainly worth asking for.
From the PRD:
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell.Also from the PRD:
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.From the APG:
Sorcerer: Add +1/2 to fire spell damage.Note that neither the Draconic Bloodline NOR the Sorcerer bonus make the explicit limitation to 'once per spell' rather than 'once per damage causing element of the spell'. Evokers do.
This may be an errata item that needs fixing, but nothing in the rules as written indicates that the Half-Orc sorcerer bonus works like the Intense Spells class ability, and the Half-Orc sorcerer in question is getting both bonuses, which is why it's possibly broken.
Each ability calls out what it does.
Intense spells adds damage to the spell.
Sorcerer ability adds damage to each die.
HO Sorc ability adds damage to the spell.
That may have been the designer's intention. It is not what was written. (It seems like you're the designer of this ability?)
It very specifically says "Add +1/2 to fire spell damage."
It does not say "Add +1/2 to fire damage spells." If it did, I would agree that it matches the Evoker's Intense Spell.
The object being modified at the end of the sentence that was written was 'damage'. It was not 'spell'.
I don't actually see it being that big of a deal. Modifying the fire spell damage means that you get a lot of small to medium sized hits that will just bounce off of a Resist Energy.
For example, my interpretation of Elemental Magic Missile does 1d4+8 damage at 12th level, per missile. Someone with Resist Energy 20 (a 2nd level spell cast by a 7th level caster) would take all 5 of those missiles and none of them would penetrate.
According to an earlier clarification the dice are multiplied by 1.5 then bonuses are added in later. I don't do it that way in my games, and it is not an issue so far so you may be able to get your DM to let everything get multiplied.
I wonder if the bonus damage is added in before or after the effects of a metamagic feat. Would a 10th-level half-orc draconic sorcerer be doing ( 10d6 + 15 ) x 1.5? Or would he be doing (10d6 x 1.5 ) + 15?Talking about averages, its the difference between 67 and 75 damage.
Ooh. I've been looking for an official ruling on that (and I've always played it that it's multiply the results of the dice, then add the bonuses).
Can you get me a link to the ruling, please?
I can't find the link, but I remember being unhappy about the ruling so I just FAQ's an old thread it came up in, one of many.
For dmg multiplying, I've always added in all bonuses, then multiplied. Empower ups spell dmg by 50%. Without empower, the spell does 10d6 +15. So, multiply 'the spell', which is all of it.
As for the per die thing, I have to back the others. No way you get the dmg bonus per missile. You might spread it out per missile, but you don't get it all.
I have personally always played that additional dmg effects are 'per target'. That way, if yuo have a +7 dmg to your magic missile, it's the exact same thing as +7 to your fireball...each and every target takes +7, but if you stack them, it still only does +7 even with all the missiles. Makes much more sense then tacking the extra damage onto one missile.
==+Aelryinth
For dmg multiplying, I've always added in all bonuses, then multiplied. Empower ups spell dmg by 50%. Without empower, the spell does 10d6 +15. So, multiply 'the spell', which is all of it.
As for the per die thing, I have to back the others. No way you get the dmg bonus per missile. You might spread it out per missile, but you don't get it all.
I have personally always played that additional dmg effects are 'per target'. That way, if yuo have a +7 dmg to your magic missile, it's the exact same thing as +7 to your fireball...each and every target takes +7, but if you stack them, it still only does +7 even with all the missiles. Makes much more sense then tacking the extra damage onto one missile.
==+Aelryinth
I follow this interpretation as well.
9d6 fireballs and lightning bolts are terrible and useless.This. Fireball and Lightning Bolt are abilities you could give to first level characters, of any class, for free, at will. And they still would not care, because they'll take one look at their 1d6 damage ability, shrug, and use something better. You could even go further than that, making Fireball and Lightning Bolt no save, no SR abilities and they STILL wouldn't get used by anyone that knows better.
When you can massively buff an ability, make it available early, and more often and it STILL sucks there's no saving it. And it certainly isn't viable by RAW (as in, without any of those buffs).
This is internet propaganda BS. Direct damage is just fine when used properly. By itself, it isn't very effective. However, save and die spells as well as battlefield control spells aren't very effective either when used exclusively.
Mix 'em up and you will have an effective caster.
If you rely too heavily on save or dies, you waste a round of actions every time someone saves. If you rely solely on direct damage you will run into something that can kill you before you can wear it down. If you use only battlefield control you can delay the enemy, but if it is determined enough, it will eventually break free and come after you again if you don't use another spell to kill it.
However, if you use battlefield control to buy time while you use other spells to wear down your opponent, then you will really begin rocking the enemy's world.
I find that all the people who say direct damage is worthless are talking about it in a vacuum. Most everything is worthless when talked about in a vacuum.
9d6 fireballs and lightning bolts are terrible and useless.This. Fireball and Lightning Bolt are abilities you could give to first level characters, of any class, for free, at will. And they still would not care, because they'll take one look at their 1d6 damage ability, shrug, and use something better. You could even go further than that, making Fireball and Lightning Bolt no save, no SR abilities and they STILL wouldn't get used by anyone that knows better.
When you can massively buff an ability, make it available early, and more often and it STILL sucks there's no saving it. And it certainly isn't viable by RAW (as in, without any of those buffs).
This is internet propaganda BS. Direct damage is just fine when used properly. By itself, it isn't very effective. However, save and die spells as well as battlefield control spells aren't very effective either when used exclusively.
Mix 'em up and you will have an effective caster.
If you rely too heavily on save or dies, you waste a round of actions every time someone saves. If you rely solely on direct damage you will run into something that can kill you before you can wear it down. If you use only battlefield control you can delay the enemy, but if it is determined enough, it will eventually break free and come after you again if you don't use another spell to kill it.
However, if you use battlefield control to buy time while you use other spells to wear down your opponent, then you will really begin rocking the enemy's world.
I find that all the people who say direct damage is worthless are talking about it in a vacuum. Most everything is worthless when talked about in a vacuum.
Most of the arguments are not that evocation is useless, but that it is the worse possible option most of the time. That does not mean it can't work. It just means most casters can be more effective with their spells, with less effort.
How are we saying "evoking is bad in a vacumn" if you're ignoring that other teammates exist?
Certainly battlefield control alone won't kill all the enemies, but the wizard is assumably a part of a group, and they can. More to the fact, they can kill them much easier and without losing life because you've controlled the battlefield.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Here's an interesting thought, perhaps already mentioned upthread but I don't think I saw it:
Blasting spells are less useful against big hit-point-chunk because the whittling takes too long. However, not all monsters qualify. On the other hand, maybe the greatest utility of blasting spells is actually against other spellcasters, in particular, as a readied action.
1. Spellcasters often don't have great hit points.
2. Spellcasters often don't have great Reflex saves.
3. Most of a spellcaster's best defensive spells are against targeted attacks (things like mirror image, displacement, etc.). SR is a defense, of course, but relatively rare and expensive for PCs and usually not a very high number. Even an invisible spellcaster can get nailed with AoE effects (assuming you haven't used see invis/invis purge or the like).
4. A spellcaster's mobility advantage is reduced when you're using an attack that has both good range and (often) affects an area. In fact, the tendency of defensive-oriented spellcasters to be flying actually works to your advantage in targeting them with AoE spells, as you needn't worry about friendly fire.
5. Since evocs do a variety of damage types, it's a crapshoot for an opposing caster to happen to have resistance against the energy you use to attack.
What is the redeeming feature of blasting spells, after all: They still do SOMETHING even if the target makes its save.
So, the blaster becomes the "mage destroyer," readying an evoc to blast somebody whenever they try to cast a spell; even on a save, the target will likely take a considerable amount of damage, and the concentration DC to get a spell off if you are damaged while casting is hardly trivial. Heck, a 10th level caster can drop a simple magic missile on an enemy caster, average damage is 17.5, which is a concentration DC of 27+ spell level; Combat Casting doesn't apply to rolls when you're injured while casting, so even an enemy with a 22 casting stat at 10th level is going to have less than a 50/50 chance to get the spell off.
If the target has a shield spell up (easy Spellcraft to notice), you drop a fireball or lightning bolt (to avoid miss chances, images, etc.); an evoker will average 40 damage, a draconic sorcerer 45 (if it's the right energy type); if you pop one of your lesser metamagic rod (empower) uses on it, you go 60/67.5. Even with a save for half, you are getting close to an impossible concentration check.
True, the first time you pull this trick the enemy caster can spend a round casting resist/protection from energy, but you can always change the energy type you use to attack. Even if you don't, that's a round your opponent spends casting a defensive spell rather than attacking.
Anyway, just had a thought to share, so share I did. :)
How are we saying "evoking is bad in a vacumn" if you're ignoring that other teammates exist?
Certainly battlefield control alone won't kill all the enemies, but the wizard is assumably a part of a group, and they can. More to the fact, they can kill them much easier and without losing life because you've controlled the battlefield.
You're right, to a point. Many of the battlefield control spells a wizard can use are indiscriminate.
Black tentacles, cloud kill, fog cloud, grease, wall spells, web, just to name a few. Often times, the moment you put an enemy into an area, the big allied melee brutes can't move up and pwn them without getting into the area of trouble themselves. Even ranged allies can be negatively effected by fog, walls, and similar obstacles, even when they are not within them!
I can't count the number of times my party mates have complained about battlefield control because it takes THEM out of the fight just as much as it takes the bad guys out of the fight.
On the other hand, blasting can be really nice as it can take out all the mooks in one go while possibly putting the tougher guys near the breaking point, thereby allowing the party bruisers to move in on their initiative and finish the survivors off quicker and easier--while allowing them to continue feeling heroic about it.
EDIT: I often leave out the party members in my examples because I feel that if I can show that a single Xth-level wizard can solo several CR X targets with just his damaging spells, then there will be little doubt left in the minds of readers that it can be a viable party tactic as well.