I am writing this post in part to prove a point, but mostly just because I was fortunate enough to be part of an awesome game last night that I wanted to share.
Our party had just raided a subterranean base full of evil "dark dwarves" along with a team of 12 allied "mountain dwarf" warriors. We successfully rescued the dwarven king's brother, who had been kidnapped, and we were in the process of fleeing through an abandoned underground city in order to get to a massive lift that would take us to a higher level of the underdark.
By the time we made it within 250 feet of the lift, over a hundred dark dwarves had rallied and cut us off. It was just us (the party), five of our original dwarf warriors, the king's brother, and three other prisoners he had been held with. None of the NPCs were in any condition to do any more fighting, and it was our job to see them safely to the lift.
The battle began at the end of a narrow city street. The dark dwarves were waiting in the alleys, on the rooftops, and in other out of the way locations, waiting for us to run between them and get torn to shreds by their gauntlet-like ambush.
Fortunately for us, we knew they were there. My wizard set up a wall of fire along the right side of the road with the heat bearing down on the left side (roasting the many enemies hiding there). Though only one dark dwarf was killed, the entire left flank of the enemy force had to pull back or be burned alive. The right flank was similarly stymied and could not come out of their alleys and other hiding spots into the street without passing through an opaque sheet of flame. They were likewise forced to find another way at us.
Their entire force had been split in half. What's more, their neat battle lines had either folded up into bunches, or had moved to parallel side streets in columns.
Our party double backed a block and took an alley to a parallel side street on the right side of the wall of fire before once again heading towards the lift. Naturally, we encountered half the enemy force who, in their attempt to also use the side street to circle around behind us, had lined up quite nicely for our party evoker's lightning bolt. Nearly 24 dwarves fell in a blinding flash of light, creating a horrific path of bodies which we quickly dubbed the "trail of death."
A number of dark dwarves on nearby rooftops took pot shots at our charges with their crossbows, but were soon distracted by our monk, who quickly leaped atop the roof and started throwing them down to their deaths in the wall of fire. Though they tried to defend themselves with their crossbows, many missed due to her sheer agility and deflect arrows feat.
My wizard double-backed and hid in the opaque wall of flame, protected from the heat by a resist energy spell cast during the earlier raid. Several more enemies from the left side of the wall of fire had taken their time to circle around behind the party in order to trap them in a pincer maneuver (the rest of their forces had gone in the other direction and bunched up at the far end of the wall of fire by the lift with their leaders in order to cut us off and crush us in between them). My wizard had predicted they might try this.
Several enemies slipped right by my hidden wizard, running after the other party members and their charges along the "trail of death." Only when they turned the corner around the wall and dound themselves on the side street did they realize that roughly half their forces had already been annihilated. Before they could decide whether they should continue pursuit or fallback, my transmuter stepped out of the flames and maneuvered behind them. A quick blast of lightning ensured that they would not be a threat to the party.
That left a quarter of the enemy forces huddled around the lift with their leaders, who were only now beginning to realize their losses (since only the roof-top dwarves could see over the opaque curtain of flames and they were more concerned with the monk killing them than about informing their allies of the situation). The party evoker flew overhead and, via a few scrolls, lobbed a few fireballs into their midst. Half of the forces guarding the lift were dead before they could even think to scatter.
Once they had scattered, our party's monk and ranger (who had long finished off the rooftop threats) charged up the middle, killing any who still chose to stand in their way, cleaving an easy path for our dwarven allies.
While my transmuter chased after fleeing enemies in the form of a dire bat, the monk and ranger escorted the dwarven royalty and his guards/fellow prisoners safely onto the lift.
Suddenly, from the shadows of the corner of the lift leaped the dark dwarf leader (who had been hiding under a pile of ancient debris). He charged towards the king's brother only to be zapped in the face by our flying evoker's enervation spell. Another quick zap from a scorching ray and the poor sod went flying over the edge of the (now very high) lift.
In roughly a minute, an evoker, a transmuter, a monk, and a ranger had annihilated a small army to the man with less than half of our spell complement remaining at the start of the encounter (much of which had been used on the aforementioned base raid and a prior ambush from a quartet of umber hulks).
None of our charges had been so much as injured. The two wizards were likewise unharmed. The monk and ranger suffered only minor cuts and bruises.
It made me realize just how powerful direct damage can be, despite all the naysayers on these boards. The ability to clear out huge numbers of enemies quickly is a great boon. Battlefield control, on the other hand (which is certainly as powerful as people say it is), won't do anyone much good against a determined enemy. Splitting up and hindering the enemy is great for reducing their effectiveness and buying your party time, but you still have to destroy them if you want to keep them from ever being a threat to you. Direct damage and save or die spells are good for that (depending on whether or not you are taking out masses of lesser enemies, or a single powerful foe).
And what was the first spell you cast, the one that enhanced the effects of all your other spells by making sure you weren't overwhelmed? A battlefield control spell. Just saying.
Make no mistake, I'm not claiming battlefield control to be weak or anything (far from it). I am merely trying to get across that direct damage isn't nearly as bad as man of the posters on these forums make it out to be. It kept us from being overwhelmed just as readily as did the wall of fire. It also helped to clear paths through the enemy forces that allowed us to escort our dwarven allies (all of whom were too weak to fight themselves at this point) to safety.
A well made point sir. As you have aptly demonstrated, battlefield control spells simply delay the threat, not destroy it. Yes, they have their uses but by themselves would not prove adequate against a determined foe.
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Yah. Most comparisons are on the direct damage dished out by, all things, PC classes against each other (e.g., "my monk's useless because she can't do as much damage as a wizard's wall of fire or a rogue's sneak attack." WTF?!?)
Your game above shows how parties are suppose to be using their unique abilities against a GM-run scenario. (BTW, kudos to your GM. Sounded like an epic battle.)
Unfortunately, if your story shows anything, it's "Battlefield control is what allowed the evoker to do stuff."
Unfortunately, if your story shows anything, it's "Battlefield control is what allowed the evoker to do stuff."
I'm not so sure about that. If the enemies had come at us down the center of the street, our lightning bolts and fireballs might well have made quicker work of them.
Forcing them to go around a wall of fire, however, did serve to better protect our (significantly weaker) dwarven allies, however. The opaqueness of the wall also kept one half of the enemy forces from fully grasping what was happening to the other half. Had they known the full extent of what was happening, much of their force may have retreated much sooner.
What is most irritating about this post is that EVERY time I read something by RavingDork its about an awesome game. WTH, share the awesomeness! Cape Cod, Mass and I can't even FIND a game... :(
-Vaz
Really? I thought at least half my posts were about complaints or rules. I guess my awesome game posts aren't as rare as I thought.
Notice how your wall spells channeled everyone into nice kill zones for your blast & burn spells and your monk.
Normally, I would agree with you, but we were in an abandoned subterranean city full of narrow streets not more than 10 feet wide. The enemy was channeled into kill zones long before I put down the wall of fire.
Keep in mind that, for the most part, you were fighting a weenie army.
Evocations are great against weenie armies, they just don't do as well against regular forces.
Everything has its place. Nothing is best for every situation.
I'm curious to know what your definition of "regular forces" is. I can't think of too many enemies that will stand up more than 2 or 3 rounds against a properly built arcane damage dealer. That's about how long it would take for a similar caster relying on save or dies to get past the enemy's save, or for a fighter to beat the target down with full attacks.
The guy relying exclusively on battlefield control on the other hand, may well still have a living enemy by that time. You gotta mix it up a little I find.
I'm curious to know what your definition of "regular forces" is. I can't think of too many enemies that will stand up more than 2 or 3 rounds against a properly built arcane damage dealer. That's about how long it would take for a similar caster relying on save or dies to get past the enemy's save, or for a fighter to beat the target down with full attacks.
The guy relying exclusively on battlefield control on the other hand, may well still have a living enemy by that time. You gotta mix it up a little I find.
Well, yes, that's the problem.
NOTHING can last 2-3 rounds of focused fire from someone. Now, as a wizard, do you want to be "doing the same as the fighter," or do you want to be "the guy who made the other four enemies stop in their tracks?"
How did the damage rolled compare with average damage?
I don't recall exact numbers for most of it, but the evoker (who did most of the blasting) had a +2 to damage from a class ability and -2 caster levels form multiclassing into eldritch knight. I do, however, recall that in one instance he did the average of a 10d6 fireball (35), even though he was throwing a 7d6+2 fireball. I remember that one because I pointed it out to him how odd it was that he rolled so high.
For these direct damage evocation spells, would the dark dwarves still been standing after a failed save with average damage?
The dark dwarves had a handful of squad leaders. They would normally survive one blast and die the next. All the other dark dwarves died if they failed their saves (and on a good damage roll like the above, even on a passed save).
If the answer is 'no' then you confirm that direct damage evocation is best used against underpowered opponents.
I will never answer a question with a simple "yes" or "no" on these boards. Such questions are often word traps.
In any case, direct damage is still really good against on-par CR encounters if you build towards it. If you don't build towards it (just throwing an everyday fireball) than it will still kill on-par CR enemies, but may take a round or two longer.
The only time battlefield control wins on it's own is when all you have to do is leave and it prevents the enemy from blocking/following you. The rest of the time it is about setting up the enemy for the party to have the advantage and take them out while suffering minimal damage.
Agreed.
There is a difference between encounter CR and enemy/opponent CR.
I misspoke. There is no such thing as an encounter CR, just an encounter level (EDIT: and strictly speaking I think that's a v3.5 term these days). I was referring to the CRs of individual creatures.
I would expect a well made spellcasting DPR specialist to take out any given creature of equivalent CR in two rounds. Three rounds if it has especially good defenses (as they often do at high levels).
Your average joe throwing the same spell at the same caster level, on the other hand, will take as many as two rounds longer.
Let's say you are 10th level and you are being chased down by four 10th level critters who are kind enough to line up in a row for you to hit them all at once with a lightning bolt. They each run 15 feet apart from each other. How many lightning bolts do you have? One? Two? Three? When do you start casting them? As soon as the first guy is in range? Let's assume you start casting them as soon as all four guys are in range. So, the first guy is 60 feet away from you when you cast your first lightning bolt. Let's say he fails his save. You...
If the guy isn't flying or otherwise protecting himself with a few buffs, he kind of deserves to die once he finds himself surrounded.
A well made point sir. As you have aptly demonstrated, battlefield control spells simply delay the threat, not destroy it. Yes, they have their uses but by themselves would not prove adequate against a determined foe.
The best battlefield control spells do both at once.
Consider black tentacles, cloudkill, polymorph any object are examples of this. A well place wall of stone can end a fight before it starts too. A disintigrate on the ground could drop a monster, literally, getting rid of the threat.
Now this isn't always the case of course, but if always look for ways to control the battlefield that also wipes out the opposition.
The best battlefield control spells do both at once.
Consider black tentacles, cloudkill, polymorph any object are examples of this. A well place wall of stone can end a fight before it starts too. A disintigrate on the ground could drop a monster, literally, getting rid of the threat.
Now this isn't always the case of course, but if always look for ways to control the battlefield that also wipes out the opposition.
Black tentacles is effective at grappling large groups of weak enemies and nearly useless against big, powerful creatures. Sounds a bit like the way some posters describe fireball. Disintegrate is inferior to flesh to stone on a number of levels (when it comes to taking a single target out of the fight).
I don't have enough ingame XP with the other spells to feel comfortable saying anything about their effectiveness.
Likewise, if a bunch of fighter types are running in a straight line at an arcane spell caster, they deserve to be hit with a lightning bolt. And I didn't factor in any elemental resistances (which, at 10th level, they probably have), and I assumed there was an equal chance to succeed/fail which, in reality, isn't likely.
Seriously, I gave you a -lot- more benefit of the doubt than I gave them.And I should note, it's as likely for them to have fly as it is for you.
Though I agree, how likely is it that you are going to fight an entire squad of 10th-level fighters at 10th-level? What are you doing? Attempting to break through the royal bodyguard to kill the king?
Encountering and fighting such a large group of powerful NPCs is likely a rare event even at high levels.
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Black tentacles is effective at grappling large groups of weak enemies and nearly useless against big, powerful creatures. Sounds a bit like the way some posters describe fireball. Disintegrate is inferior to flesh to stone on a number of levels (when it comes to taking a single target out of the fight).
I don't have enough ingame XP with the other spells to feel comfortable saying anything about their effectiveness.
Black tentacles isn't perfect but it does more than the fireball does: Fireball is one hit for low damage on a lot of creatures. Black tentacles creates difficult, entangling, possibly damaging terrain in an area. Of course you won't use it against a big powerful creature -- it would be like throwing a fireball against a golem -- plain stupid.
Disintegrate should almost never be used on a creature. It's just about worthless that way -- you disintegrate the bridge the creature is on instead -- or the support for the wall it is beside, etc. You cause the world around it to become its enemy instead of just hitting it with the dinky little ray. Polymorph any object also isn't going to be used directly against your opponent -- it's going to be used on the roof above his head to turn said roof into lava (or some other dangerous substance). Most spells are actually more than one type of spell. Consider the summon monster spells. Once you can summon earth elementals if you are an cave have them appear in the ceiling. Since they have earth glide they can legally be there. Then have the earth elemental five foot step out of the ceiling on your enemy and then take its attack. An earth elemental weighs a LOT and will inflict a lot of falling damage when it hits.
Lots of enemies in a dry field? Summon a fire elemental to set the field on fire, or just use burning hands -- it now becomes battlefield control since you are setting the battlefield to damage your enemies (be careful for your allies of course).
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AGAIN:
This stuff isn't always possible, but there usually is a way to do more with a spell than simply what it appears to be -- thus a simple "battlefield control spell" can also be a 1 round "win" button -- if you can figure out how.
Same with damage dealing spells -- don't just look at them as their use to damaging the enemy -- look at them for how they will finish off your enemy, by not only damaging him, but controlling his environment.
In my example, I envisioned four 10th level characters. However, even if just one of them was coming at you, he'd still get to you with just a little less than half of his hit points left.
He'd slice you and dice you like a cuisinart.
How many hit points would one of those 10th-level characters have?
Assuming they are fighters with 14 constitution, they would average 75 each.
A dedicated damage dealer would annihilate them in approximately two rounds even if they passed their saves. You could argue they have resistance, evasion, or similar defenses from magic items, but you need to remember that they are NPCs and as such should be equipped with NPC gear, not with heroic gear like the spellcaster. What's more, any sorcerer or wizard worth their salt will figure out their defenses real quick (if not in advance).
The only way they are taking down the spellcaster is if they plan ahead REALLY well or else catch him off guard. Even then, said sorcerer/wizard will likely just teleport away if he got into any real trouble, only to get revenge on his own terms.
In my example, I envisioned four 10th level characters. However, even if just one of them was coming at you, he'd still get to you with just a little less than half of his hit points left.
He'd slice you and dice you like a cuisinart.How many hit points would one of those 10th-level characters have?
Assuming they are fighters with 14 constitution, they would average 75 each.
A dedicated damage dealer would annihilate them in approximately two rounds even if they passed their saves. You could argue they have resistance, evasion, or similar defenses from magic items, but you need to remember that they are NPCs and as such should be equipped with NPC gear, not with heroic gear like the spellcaster. What's more, any sorcerer or wizard worth their salt will figure out their defenses real quick (if not in advance).
The only way they are taking down the spellcaster is if they plan ahead REALLY well or else catch him off guard. Even then, said sorcerer/wizard will likely just teleport away if he got into any real trouble, only to get revenge on his own terms.
Correct! A dedicated damage dealer will take out a 75 hit point foe with EVERY SPELL at level 10. Arcane Thesis, Scorching Ray, Empowered, Maximized is a 5th level spell doing 72 + 6d6 dmg. that lead fighter is toast! Or, he can Twin the spell instead, and use a metamagic rod to maximize it for 84 dmg to two of them. The second pair just eat the same thing as the first.
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Direct damage is usually compared up against stuff with tons of hit points, not against low level peons where it shines. A fireball isn't effective against stone giants, for instance, or a dragon, and this is what it is compared to. Not hordes of orcs or duergar...although those are by far the most fun things to use it on.
I'd also like to note that if those duergar had tower shields, none of those spells would have done any damage to them...
==Aelryinth
In my example, I envisioned four 10th level characters. However, even if just one of them was coming at you, he'd still get to you with just a little less than half of his hit points left.
He'd slice you and dice you like a cuisinart.How many hit points would one of those 10th-level characters have?
Assuming they are fighters with 14 constitution, they would average 75 each.
A dedicated damage dealer would annihilate them in approximately two rounds even if they passed their saves. You could argue they have resistance, evasion, or similar defenses from magic items, but you need to remember that they are NPCs and as such should be equipped with NPC gear, not with heroic gear like the spellcaster. What's more, any sorcerer or wizard worth their salt will figure out their defenses real quick (if not in advance).
The only way they are taking down the spellcaster is if they plan ahead REALLY well or else catch him off guard. Even then, said sorcerer/wizard will likely just teleport away if he got into any real trouble, only to get revenge on his own terms.
Dedicated damage dealer? How do you mean that? At 10th level the best damage spells you have are still only 10d6. That averages at 35 HP damage per spell, meaning two spells are 70 HP before saves are made. Now the "Dedicated" damage dealer is probably looking at a DC 10+5(spell level)+4(maximum from spell focus/elemental focus)+8(intelligence) = 27 with his best spells -- I'm a little less likely to say the "average" level 10 NPC will make that save -- but some resistance isn't unlikely, and even if not available even your 75 hp fighter is going to live to fight on round 3. Now an evoker specialist will be adding 5 damage to those spells in all likelihood so he might drop the targets with two spells (since his average is going to be about 40 per spell meaning 80 total leaving a 75 HP npc at -5).
Now this is with NPC fighters -- if we were to change to barbarians, rogues, or actual monsters your chances of success drop dramatically.
Also while you burned up two spells to drop the NPC fighters, a good battlefield control spell could still stop the fight from happening. These fighters have are going to have the "basic" NPC melee stats, which puts there CMD at a wonderful 23. The black tentacle spell mentioned earlier is going to be using a CMB of +15. On an 8 or better the fighters are screwed, and they can't charge you at all.
Once grabbed the fighters have to beat a CMD 25 with a +12 bonus. Once the grapple is set the tentacles get a +5 bonus to keep the fighter there giving them a +20 verses that CMD of 23. My money is on the tentacles, which isn't even my highest level spell slot.
In my example, I envisioned four 10th level characters. However, even if just one of them was coming at you, he'd still get to you with just a little less than half of his hit points left.
He'd slice you and dice you like a cuisinart.
Which, I believe, is pretty much the point that the 'Dork was making.
Everything has its place. Nothing is best for every situation....The guy relying exclusively on battlefield control on the other hand, may well still have a living enemy by that time. You gotta mix it up a little I find.
We get it, LT, "Thou shalt not offer the slightest of praise to Evokers, their Evocations, nor the damage they deal. They are an Abomination unto the 'God' wizard, all praises be to his battlefield control spells. Speak not of any other build lest ye be cast out. Forever and ever, Amen."
"Direct Damage is pointless", "adventurers would ruin local economies", and "'scry and die' is undefeatable/would destroy society" are all commonly held beliefs by many, very vocal, and prolific posters. They are also complete and total b.s.
The larger the party and/or the fewer the opponents, the more valuable a "God" wizard becomes.
The smaller the party and/or the more numerous the opponents, the more valuable a "damage dealer" becomes.
They are both valuable. The party that has one of each (or a caster capable of both) is truly blessed. That such an obvious truth seems so controversial to some is utterly beyond me.
It's not that evocation is bad, just that it's not that good, and that there's generally better uses of your spell slots.
Also scry and die tactics are stupid.
Oh, and large fields of weak enemies? Battlefield controllers love that. Let's not pretend it's somehow their weakness. It ain't.
The larger the party and/or the fewer the opponents, the more valuable a "God" wizard becomes.
The smaller the party and/or the more numerous the opponents, the more valuable a "damage dealer" becomes.
They are both valuable. The party that has one of each (or a caster capable of both) is truly blessed. That such an obvious truth seems so controversial to some is utterly beyond me.
This is my experience as well.
Dedicated damage dealer? How do you mean that?
I was thinking of one of the two following:
- An evoker with maximize and quicken spell metamagic feats (staples of damage dealing spellcasters), the magical lineage trait, and a metamagic rod of empower spell.
The first fireball/lightning bolt/whatever will hit for 65x1.5 damage (or 60x1.5 + 5 depending on your interpretation), enough to kill the aforementioned fighters with a little bit of luck. Following up with a quickened empowered magic missile takes luck out of the equation. That's a one round KO if the wizard wins initiative and the fighters fail their (weak) saving throw. Two rounds if they succeed on the save or have some form of resistance.
- Alternatively, play a half-orc sorcerer of the draconic bloodline who REALLY likes fire spells. Without metamagic, such a character would deal 10d6+15 damage (10 from the draconic bloodline and 5 more from the half-orc/sorcerer alternate favored class bonus). Throw in some metamagic similar to the above and those fighters are toast.
Of course all this "examples in a vacuum" crap accomplishes little since vacuums never happen in real games. As has been stated, if all four fighters survive to get to the wizard and he can't get away or has enough buffs already in place to survive a round or two, than he dies.
Of course, the fighters have to get to the wizard first. That's what battlefield control is good for. A wizard who focuses solely on damage will be just as dead as the wizard who focuses solely on battlefield control.
In the end, a smart character would just assassinate the wizard by stabbing him through the heart in his sleep or poisoning his food with enough doses as to make surviving impossible short of poison immunity.
I don't blame you guys for being so set in your ways though. The APG didn't always exist and I'm not so sure a wizard or sorcerer could have done quite so well 6 months ago.
EDIT: Things start to get REALLY nasty when you get to 15th-level and bring Spell Perfection into play. Once that is in your feat suite, the only people who will survive your onslaught are those who studied up on your tried and true technique before facing you.
That doesn't bother me though as anyone is screwed in the end anyways if their enemies do enough preparation/research.
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DD is useful if you can kill them in one or two spells. Which does happen when your up against the weenie army. Otherwise, it's better to BC and let the martials do the damage. In DDO, DD is king because you can kill the hoards your up against in one or two spells. If your game focuses on dynasty warrior like kill the mooks, then yes DD is a good option.
ummm, A maximised Fireball (with a rod of course) plus a quickened Magic Missile does 97 pts of dmg - 62 if saved against - in one round.
And *every* Evoker Wizard has a Lesser Maximise MM Rod.
*edit* And a 10th lvl Fighter's avg HP are 88 - 48 (fighter) + 10 (fvrd class) + 30(+3 Con).
He won't last 2 rnds even with saving throw succeeding.
Of course, these vacuum fights are purely academic.
Sure, why not? But i'm not giving the Evoker a MM rod specifically to take out the Fighter. It's something that all Evokers prioritise to buy IME.
So sure, buy magic items if you want, but how many rings of elemental resistance is the average Fighter gonna buy? Even if you bought two, there are 4 elements, and odds are the Evoker will still have spells available.
In this thread, we learn that different tactics are needed for different situations.As I've said, evocation is great against weenie armies.
My 11th lvl Evoker crushed 40 low lvl Rogues, 4 Stone Giants, 2 Fire Giants, and 2 Storm Giants in about 5 rounds...by himself mostly.
In this thread, we learn that different tactics are needed for different situations.
Hahaha, indeed. :)
With pleasure.
I had Gtr Invisibility and Overland Flight.
AoE spells and their terrible Reflex saves. Also had a scroll of Meteor Swarm which helped. Used the touch attack of the boulders on the head Rogues, so when the Meteor's Fireballs hit most of them failed their saves.
In the end didn't even need it, as I had heaps of spells left (about 70%). Used my MM rod with Fireball and just blasted.
Oh, i forgot there were 6 Ogre Magi there as well. No jokes. Don't believe everything you hear about Evokers, much underrated.
On the flip-side, the same character would routinely memorise battle-field control spells as his non-school spells to deal with tricky situations. Once we were up against a Succubus and I cast Stinking Cloud and Black Tentacles - totally disabled her.
So I'm not discounting God Wizards, i just think the Evoker hate is missplaced.