I've only read the first manual of the campaign arc (purposefully avoiding the 'main' fights to avoid meta-gaming) and the concept of Kobolds in the Kingdom has made me think I'll adopt a similar stance to most folks in this thread, ie offer the Kobolds full protection (and duties) under the Law and offer them the Mines as 'Their Land', taking steps to ensure not only can they make the mines fortifiable, but that they'll have land to grow their own crops and livestock, including the damned radishes!
Now all that's left is to badger the rest of the group into it ... bloody kill 'em all attitude in our last campaign!
I'm quite concerned that my players are going to slaughter the Kobolds wholesale myself. Forget the fact that they speak Common and could be an asset to any kingdom in the future, they're monsters and as such need killing!!! I've got to figure out how to handle this long-term...
What you wrote aboveI'm quite concerned that as a player you're reading the book, & yet claim
to be not reading bits to 'avoid metagaming'...Dude - you're learning the whole story, yet missing out the fights - which
over all have less metagaming potential than all the rest...If one of my players did this - I'd ask them to leave the game.
I'm pretty sure one of my players actually did this, despite the fact that I asked him not to read the AP at all (as he had asked me to run it in the first place). I simply decided to modify some things to really throw off his expectations, making it more interesting for me along the way. He's quit now, quite possibly because it didn't all play out as expected.
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I'm quite concerned that my players are going to slaughter the Kobolds wholesale myself. Forget the fact that they speak Common and could be an asset to any kingdom in the future, they're monsters and as such need killing!!! I've got to figure out how to handle this long-term...
I kind of played up their "silly and kinda cute" aspects, made Solnes want to keep one for a pet.
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Considering I've had to read the manual because the guy who won the lottery to GM the Kingmaker Campaign asked me for help, being as I have been playing D&D, and then Pathfinder, for nigh on 16 years, while he's only got 4 years (and a very cheeky young daughter who keeps painting his pewter dice with his wife's nail-polish, but that's a different story) and is feeling a wee bit nervous about tackling a Sandbox Adventure rather than a strait hack-and-slash Adventure, due to the fact we had new people joining the group and we've gone up to 6 PCs in the campaign, I think I'll do just fine, thank you.
Together we've come up with 18 difference scenarios for the PCs on top of the normal ones in the first book, and as combat merely involves adding more PCs, traps or increasing their gear/abilities/etc, I have been purposefully avoiding those so that my character does not walk right into combat and start to wafflestomping the enemies. I will have and edge in the non-combat, I will admit, but I will also be striving to not use that Meta-Knowledge because being the Guy-Who-Waltz-Through-The-Game annoys the !@#$ out of me on a profound level.
I should have possibly mentioned this in my post, also.
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I love reading the Paizo manuals, they are to me what tim-tams are to my female friends. Simply irrestiable.
If the player could not handle not getting flawless victories every encounter and scenario, then they should perhaps go play a Computer Game for a while, then come back to the Table Top Setting. I love it when the GM/DM throws a twist at the players, as do most of the gamers I've met.
Winning without any real effort is boring. Fighting tooth and nail, suffering, failing, bringing hope where there was none and rising against all possible odds to become true heroes is what Pathfinder speaks to me, and I love it for that struggle.
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I'm kind of excited for the prospect of ending our Curse of the Crimson Throne game, even though I'll also be sad, because it means that I can go back and read through the adventure path and see what was going on with the things we encountered. Our DM comments that there are a lot of really cool stories behind characters or events -- that pretty much the DM alone is privy to, and I know that I've felt a little whisked on to the next location without my curiousity satisfied.
Running Kingmaker, I see the same thing taking shape, though nothing so important yet. It helps that the PCs do what they can to investigate certain things, and I do what I can to nudge things into an investigable area.
Edit: Also, before you explained the situation, I don't think that raising an eyebrow to your reading Stolen Lands was unwarranted. I suspect that most people who read what the DM is running are up to trouble. You inhabit a noble corner case that couldn't reasonably be predicted.
Edit: Also, before you explained the situation, I don't think that raising an eyebrow to your reading Stolen Lands was unwarranted. I suspect that most people who read what the DM is running are up to trouble. You inhabit a noble corner case that couldn't reasonably be predicted.
I know I read the first Kingmaker module before playing because I was considering DMing it. After a quick read, I decided that it was too much to take on for me at this time, but one that I would definitely want to play in. The key when those situations come up where a player has for whatever reason read the adventure and then plays it is intent when reading it and how the information is used. While I know of certain specifics of the adventure, I am making sure to keep that player knowledge out of the game, and I deliberately only skimmed the section on the actual encounters to prevent as much accidental bleed over as possible if I ended up playing and not running.
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We managed to get the radishes through diplomacy and bribery. Then, taking out the mites and the sorcerer, we re-established the chieftain. In a trade for citizenship in our newly found barony and protection from the big ones by the baron, the kobolds got two squares to live in and raise livestock on. They work the mines for us as well. Their land is fenced off and marked every so often in proper (draconic), big ones (common) and fairy (sylvan) "Civilized Kobold Lands under the protection of the Baron". Most of the kobolds live in their two hexes, but a few have been recruited by the police force and military. In fact, 20% of the police force, mostly night watch, are kobolds. Usually, they don't do much more than "Boss, there's something going on!", but it is a good early warning system. They have had to put up with distrust a bit, but have proven themselves worthy of their citizenship. After two years, the kobold land has grown to four hexes (with double population, they are small and like tight quarters), and we are starting mass training in military skills. Two thousand kobolds with spears and short bows will make a formidable army.
We gave them respect and raised them up from being a scavenger race to citizens. We learned their language, (only one character started with draconic) and that impressed them. And they have acted lawfully and with honor, because this is better than anything else they could expect from life. They even held their temper when gnomes came to town.
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Skipping all of the following post after the main poster...
My group came across the Radish drugged kobolds and our honorable and brave fighter charged in and murdered them. While I the NG refused to attack. Well we renigged the whole situation as i brought it up again at the next session.
we stumbled across their layer, I thought it was a trap. I refused to enter into a trap. I then went into the cave when our cavalier stated ,"I will protect you, also I have done this part before" SIGH!
So we went in their and they didn't seem hostile, so we heard them out and went to their rivals to solve their issue. That is where we left off. It doesn't seem like they are hostile, I plan on converting or atleast attempting to convert them from Snaggle tooth to the Dawnflower!
My initial reaction is they are peaceful.. but who knows what they will do when we return to their layer.
In our game we made an alliance with the Kobolds and promptly forgot about them. We later realized we had settled the land with the Kobolds on it and since we didn't wipe them out we just assumed they became farmers.
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My PCs kept the kobolds around to work the mines, and they're currently a significant part of the war effort, acting as spies and scouts, and they were the guys that captured a pitax officer and tortured the whiterose plot hook out of him for the PCs.
That's how I play them. Evil, but helpfully so, and with a somewhat comical bent. I've done that ever since I saw someone with a kobold sorcerer who took the leadership feat so he could have his own tribe of level-1 kobolds and a cleric cohort. His cohort would, whenever given an order, say
Cohort:"yes, my king... (aside)yes, soon my vengeance shall begin, and you will rue the day-"
Sorcerer: "What was that?"
Cohort: "Nothing, my lord. You there" [smacks random level 1 kobold] "fetch water for the king's bath!"
Mook: "Yes, honored shaman! (aside) patience. Soon, my vengenace shall be complete, and they will rue the day..."
My character, who I'm making to fill the ruler position, is LE.
Even as we speak, he is currently working on drafting up a law book that would make even devils and demons cry about how evil it is.
"Section 3 clause number 238 of the Sacred statue convention, Sacred statues may only be obtained in ownership via means of forceful persuasion.
Section 3 clause number 239 of the sacred statue convention states that when a party breaks a sacred statue that is currently under the ownership of a second party, the first party in question will become the faithful obedient servers of the second party."
Gonna need to hire some lawyers.. :/
My players are rapidly approaching a confrontation with the kobolds and the mites, and I'm interested to see how they solve it. The mites being fey creatures, will be much much more harder to control, if ever(genocide hooooo!). But the kobolds are open to negotiation and assistance, as the adventure outlines.
I haven't seen any other guidelines in the book if you start including the kobolds and other various monster races you find. I am of the opinion this will effect unrest in some way, a small negative to it, or a continual drain until the kobolds are "accepted" as part of the society. I doubt the settlers from Bravoy and the River Kingdom are used to living with what they consider horrible monsters that steal their children, and the idea needs a little to get used to.
Does anyone have any good guidelines on just how the stat-effects of the inclusion of kobolds and other monsters should effect the various kingdom stats?
My players are rapidly approaching a confrontation with the kobolds and the mites, and I'm interested to see how they solve it. The mites being fey creatures, will be much much more harder to control, if ever(genocide hooooo!). But the kobolds are open to negotiation and assistance, as the adventure outlines.
I haven't seen any other guidelines in the book if you start including the kobolds and other various monster races you find. I am of the opinion this will effect unrest in some way, a small negative to it, or a continual drain until the kobolds are "accepted" as part of the society. I doubt the settlers from Bravoy and the River Kingdom are used to living with what they consider horrible monsters that steal their children, and the idea needs a little to get used to.
Does anyone have any good guidelines on just how the stat-effects of the inclusion of kobolds and other monsters should effect the various kingdom stats?
Personally, I think you shouldn't do it with stat adjustments. Do it with "random" events. Events are where you get to add flavor in kingdom building the easiest. Have a couple events where the culture clashes, but afterwards the kingdom comes out the better (or worse) for it. Something like +3 unrest as people accuse the kobolds of mishandling trade, but the kobolds accept rulership afterwards and you gains +1 loyalty if handled peacefully. You can decide the truth of the mater.
In our game the kobolds add +2 Unrest (one time effect), -2 Stability and +4 Economy to start with (I wanted to have a real benefit to suffering the little blaggards, and this allows them to provide as much economic benefit as a well qualified Treasurer).
To keep the backstabbing nature of the koblds, I also have the kingdom rulers (not the PC's in our game) make a Command check every six months/turns to keep the kobolds on track as they are constantly looking for a better deal and generally a whisker away from causing trouble.
If the check succeeds then things continue on as normal.
If it fails then I add +1 unrest and the kobold conflict adds a -4 stability for six months and all other Unrest results in that time frame are increased by one (because the kobolds are really just making everything worse). The PC's can then try to get things under control at the end of 6 months.
All that being said I have provided things the players can do to increase the chances of success on the Command check.
The bonuses to the check are pretty big, but it helps once the kingdom gets to a size that command DC's become a ponderous thing, and it keeps the kobold situation on everyone's minds without completely derailing the efforts of the kingdom. Plus there is that economic benefit to having extremely...extremely cheap labor.
Having misread the kobolds entry as CE instead of LE, I had them work their way towards chaotic good over 4 years of in-game time. With excessive help and presence from the PC's kingdom, they are now a happy if a tad crazy community. They love building and playing games, drinking themselves silly and mining the silvery ore in exchange for more money food and stuff to mess around with.
Mikmek is the kingdom's Marshall and hero of the soothscales while a small group of 10 (the population skyrocketed to about 100 in the recent years, but the main population is only about 30).
A silver dragon moved in recently, fascinated with the change in common kobold behavior. This led to a dilemna of forcing the kobolds from CG to LG from the dragon's point of view. A few night's of investigation, getting the chief drunk and talking down the young dragon to simply watch and not get involved made things right.
It also led to an attack against a black dragon in the swamp, one of the reasons for the silver moving in was to keep other influences out of the reformed kobold community.
Like most groups, mine made an agreement with the Kobolds to work the mines and stop attacking humanoids, in return for being left alone and well-supplied with food and luxuries. Mikmek was rather taken with the party and is taking levels in Trapper ranger in the hope of joining them at some point.
However, I had the party encounter another group of Kobolds, following rumours of a Green dragon (actually the Forest Drake). These other Kobolds have been sent to join the Sootscales, so I can either engineer a conflict between the two groups or have them be a bad influence.
Are your Sootscales evil?
Depends on your definition of evil. If you compare them to what passes as evil in PF, they aren't. In fact, none of humanoid races in my campaign are inherently wired to behave evilly, to avoid excessive implications of genocide as the best solution. I prefer to reserved this for mind flayers and other things whose biological cycle is inherently hostile to other sapients.
Now, by more mundane definitions, they are pretty bad people, just like nearly any undeveloped tribe, who doesn't know any more advanced ways of settling disputes than blood feuds, think (largely correctly) that the world is out to get them, and worships things that, if they are lucky, do not exist, and if they are unlucky, will see them as thralls.
But my PCs aren't particularly picky, particularly as they recognize, that nominal ownership of land is worth little more than nothing in places, where my interpretation of Kingmaker is locate - people is what has real value for lords. So, after figuring out that the kobolds can be communicated with, they made a deal with Soothscales - kobolds toil for them, and otherwise do as they said, and in return they will be treated as subjects, instead of vermin. As kobolds and the Chied Soothscale in particular were imressed enough by PCs' martial prowess, they didn't even have to bring up the "or else" part so far.
I suppose the next step will be converting the tribe to worship of the proper gods and introducing them to advantages of trade.
My Sootscales are evil. Even though the mites in my campaign are the aggressors, I made sure to show my Sootscales torturing their lone mite prisoner for information and being excessively violent to Tartuk's corpse after that battle was resolved.
The moral ambiguity of a mostly good-aligned PC party allying with evil-aligned kobolds makes for some interesting roleplay, in my opinion.
*Evil Grin* Mikmek (and a few other kobolds) helped out as guards at Fort Stag when it was first settled. They went home after a few months and Mikmek is now captain of the Sootcale Militia.
The Sootscales themselves have absorbed a number of other kobold tribes - and work the mines in a semi-independent reservation. They have their own laws and rules, just so long as they stick to the federal laws.
They are not LE as per the PF guidelines - however they are LN with very evil tendencies (Which is an AD&D I / AD&D II type concept). There is now a Kobold Cleric of Asmodeus who writes their laws and handles all of their contracts (on chief sootscales behalf).
Visitors are welcome for trade purposes (after all they have to sell their ore) but the Kobold laws must be followed. And the penalties are much a
harsher than most people expect :) The average kobolds enjoy teasing visitors and encouraging them to break the laws ....
My PCs don't go there anymore unless it is a very formal visit :)
I have a question. Many people have said that you can work with the koblods and about how to minize the problems with that. Well what are the upsides? What benefit do you get that you would not get if you killed them all.
I have a question. Many people have said that you can work with the koblods and about how to minize the problems with that. Well what are the upsides? What benefit do you get that you would not get if you killed them all.
Aside form not having to kill them and any treasure and roleplay opportunities that might be lost going that route, It's pretty much left up to whatever the GM wants to award.
Sneaky little spies and skilled craftsfolk who can work for the kingdom. For my group's Spymistress, 45% of her underlings are Little Folk fey (friends of Perlivash and co.), 45% are sneaky kobolds of various classes (mostly rogue, ranger, sorcerer, and classes like them), and the others are assorted "big folk" (a couple of ex-bandits, an inquisitor who's the Diplomat's daughter, the Spymistress's Winter Wolf cohort, and a handful of others).
Chief Sootscale is a viceroy for the kingdom, his mines provide silver and occasionally diamonds (which the group buys at a premium for rez spells) without having to solicit extra labor from outside colonists (or refurbish the mines to allow comfortable access for Tall Folk), and he provides a fair number of members of various craftsmen's guilds due to kobolds' innate skill with Crafting.
In my KM campaign, the players have managed to make allies out of the Kobolds, by being exceptionally good to them on many levels. They work the mines, have their own settlement called Scaleborough not too far from the sycamore tree that was owned by the mites (the kobolds final victory over the little despicable fey) and Sootscale is now a lord on the council. I do remind the players that they are Lawful Evil but funnily enough the laws work in THEIR favor, including the fact that Scaleborough and the mines are "guarded" by human militia. Secretly, any kobold that risks Sootscale's position on the council is likely severely punished by Sootscale himself.
In my KM campaign the PC's made an alliance with them,expanded the spider cave into a new lair for them, and got the sootscale tribe to set up a moon radish farm. They then bult a settlement over the lair turning into a above ground and underground village.