joshwitz |
My party is currently exploring Castle Scarwall, and will encounter Belshallam in a session or two. In preparation, I started converting him to Pathfinder rules, and noticed that Pathfinder dragons seem considerably weaker than their 3.5 counterparts.
Belshallam is a Adult Dragon (CR14) with 21HD (241 hp, BAB+21). An equivalent Pathfinder Dragon (aka Adult Red) will be CR14 with 17HD (212hp BAB+17).
The comparison between a 3.5 Adult Red Dragon with a Pathfinder Adult Red Dragon is even worse. The 3.5 Adult Red Dragon is much tougher.
Am I missing something? Are Pathfinder Dragons really weaker than the 3.5 versions?
I'm probably going to use the 3.5 version of Belshallam to make him that much more dangerous to the party. They need a good scare, but I'm kinda curious as to the reasoning behind weakening Dragons in Pathfinder.
Gorbacz |
What you are missing is that 3.5 Dragons were under-CR'ed by 2-3. It was done because the 3.5 designers believed that 1) dragons will most usually be encountered in their lairs with PCs being well-forewarned and ready and 2) dragons should be uber-tough encounters at given CR because, they are, Dragons.
Pathfinder did away with that and Dragons are now at the correct CR in relation to their abilities. So, if a 3.5 adventure calls for a CR 14 3,5 dragon, you should drop a CR 14 Pathfinder dragon there.
Wyrd_Wik |
Thought I'd chime in with my Belshallam experience. Its very likely the party will stumble on Belshallam with little warning (also he's a dragon type that players are not familiar with). If the party has been softened up by previous encounters (which in Scarwall is almost certain) Belshallam goes from dangerous to potential slaughter. When I ran it, the party survived by the skin of their teeth as they quickly decided after a couple of rounds to try negotiation rather than stand up battle (1 party member was killed outright and another in the negatives).
cibet44 |
joshwitz wrote:
Am I missing something? Are Pathfinder Dragons really weaker than the 3.5 versions?
They tend to have fewer hit points and lower BAB, but they have significantly more other abilities, as well as getting higher levels of spellcasting earlier (CR-wise).
I know this is an old thread but I figured it was a good place to post this.
In the AP Bellasham has a SR of 27 but it also says an Adult Umbral Dragon should have a SR 22 in the bestiary section. So why does Belshallam get the extra +5? I don't see a spell or spell like ability that gives it to him.
Are |
In the AP Bellasham has a SR of 27 but it also says an Adult Umbral Dragon should have a SR 22 in the bestiary section. So why does Belshallam get the extra +5? I don't see a spell or spell like ability that gives it to him.
I assume the 27 was either a typo or a remnant from a version where he was an old dragon.
Interestingly, the Bestiary 2 version has SR 25 for an adult Umbral Dragon.