| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I am starting a new thread regarding the -4 Dex penalty that applies to grappled characters but not to pinned ones. The main problems are:
1) -4 Dex also applies to skill checks so it also applies to escape artist. This leads to higher chance of escaping while being grappled than being pinned.
2) Since the grappled condition is also applied to the grappler, a character using the agile maneuver feat is also affected by the -4 Dex penalty, leading to weaker grappler.
Was this -4 Dex penalty intentional or it was originally made only to reflect a -2 penalty to AC and CMD? If you do not have an answer please at least tell how do you play it in your games?
Many thanks! Hoping for an official answer.
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TBH the -4 Dex thing is one of the reasons why I don't like the changes Paizo made to grapple, it necessitates having to modify (or pre-calculate) more stats CMB when grappling, CMD when grappling (if Agile Manouevres feat), AC when grappling etc.
See my old thread here for more of my thoughts on the Grapple changes.
TBH the -4 Dex thing is one of the reasons why I don't like the changes Paizo made to grapple, it necessitates having to modify (or pre-calculate) more stats CMB when grappling, CMD when grappling (if Agile Manouevres feat), AC when grappling etc.
See my old thread here for more of my thoughts on the Grapple changes.
Thank our for answering. I have read your thread but I was expecting that after one year, an official answer would have come up.
I would also like to mention that I am not discussing here whether the new system is simpler or more complicated. My main problem is that a grappled character has -2 penalty on Escape artist (from -4 Dex) which disappears when he becomes pinned.
Two people could argue wether a strength-grappler should be better than an agile-grappler (look at agile maneuvers feat and -4 Dex from grappled condition -> a 16 Dex character using agile maneuvers would have the same results with a 12 Str grappler), but IMO they shouldn't argue whether a pinned character has a greater chance of escaping comparing to being only grappled. This issue hasn't been talked at all and I wonder how people deal with it in their campaigns?
To be honest, it hasn't come up. But you're right, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And it specifically says that pinned and grappled don't stack.
It's a lot easier to hit someone that's pinned, but IMO they should (at least) have as hard a time of using Escape Artist checks as a grappled character.
I'll probably HR the -4 Dex applies to pinned creatures too.
To be honest, it hasn't come up. But you're right, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And it specifically says that pinned and grappled don't stack.
It's a lot easier to hit someone that's pinned, but IMO they should (at least) have as hard a time of using Escape Artist checks as a grappled character.
I'll probably HR the -4 Dex applies to pinned creatures too.
Thanks Tanis. Do you believe that the right fix is to apply -4 Dex to pinned or to change the -4 Dex penalty to a -2 penalty to AC and CMD? The spirit of this penalty was to penalize the CMB of agile maneuver characters and using of escape artist or to penalize the Defenses? Opinions?
I wouldn't hazard a guess as to the spirit of the rules, but it's probably simpler to just apply the -4 Dex penalty to pinned creatures as well as all the sucky stuff that happens to them.
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Apologies for taking the thread slightly off topic.
I am not GMing or playing PF, but if I were GMing PF RPG, I would play with the RAW, even if it does mean that Pinned characters find it easier to use Escape Artist. My reason being that I rarely implement house rules because I play and GM at conventions and take part in living games (though not PFS anymore) and so tend to play by the book games so my play experience and those of my players is consistent.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Apologies for taking the thread slightly off topic.
I am not GMing or playing PF, but if I were GMing PF RPG, I would play with the RAW, even if it does mean that Pinned characters find it easier to use Escape Artist. My reason being that I rarely implement house rules because I play and GM at conventions and take part in living games (though not PFS anymore) and so tend to play by the book games so my play experience and those of my players is consistent.
I totally agree with you DigitalMage, I also dislike the use of house-rules that contradict the RAW. I like playing by the book and never change anything without at least having a good reason. But in some situations like this one, I can see only two options:
a) Or something is wrong here (in concept or in the way it is written) so it should be fixed by the creators.b) Or I have understood something completely wrong and there is a good explanation about this that I cannot see. So I need someone to show me the truth :-)
So if a) is true why no-one complains or there is not an answer about it at the FAQ. And if b) is true please someone show me the LIGHT.
Many thanks and sorry for my persistence.
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The grappled condition specifical states the -2 penalty does not apply to rolls to escape the grapple.
The -2 does apply to Escape Artist checks; however, if you look at the numbers this is not a true penalty. For example, a 5th level Rogue with an 18 dex can have a +12 Escape Artist(5 ranks + 4 Dex + 3 Class).
A 5th level fighter with an 18 Str and a 14 Dex would have a +21 CMD (+5 BAB + 4 Str + 2 Dex + 10 Base). Even with the -2 penalty, the rogue still only need a 11 to escape the grapple (an average roll). A fighter that sinks 2 feats to get Improved grapple, would still only be at a +23 CMD vs a the Rogues +10 Escape Artist check.
It is a true penalty. It's just that you can easily get a better Escape Artist score than you can a CMB for grappling. A character attacking for 1d12-2 damage still has a penalty, even if he does more damage on average than someone attacking for 1d4 damage.
On the other hand, most of the time, the -2 to the Escape Artist check is balanced by the fact that the grappler also has -4 to Dex (since he is also grappled). Unless he is somehow flat-footed, that will decrease his CMD by -2 and there is no net effect from the loss of dex.
On the gripping hand, it does mean that someone using CMD and strength to escape the grapple has a net +2, since he has no penalties and the grappler has -2 to CMD from the loss of dex.