| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Does the original save against the poison (when you're first stung by the wyvern or hit by the assassin's poisoned dagger) completely negate the poison, or simply count as one of several necessary saves?
For example,
Black Lotus Extract
Type poison, contact; Save Fortitude DC 20
Onset 1 minute; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Effect 1d6 Con damage; Cure 2 consecutive saves
Would you need to save twice in a row if hit by this, even if your first save is successful, or would the very first save completely negate the poison in your system?
If I'm not mistaken, you still would need to save again in that case. I'm curious as to when the secondary effets occur.
A friend brought up an interesting point, and a sort of followup question to this. Do you, by the RAW, save against the poison and damage when poisoned? Or at the start of your next turn?
Which scenario better represents the RAW? Does poison happen immediately, or on your turn?
A)
Initial Save, upon being poisoned
Second save, start of your first turn
Third save, start of your second turn
. . .
Seventh save, start of your sixth turn.
(This would be 6 rounds.)
B)
First save is at the start of your first turn after being poisoned.
Second save, start of your second turn.
Third save, start of your third turn.
. . .
Sixth save, start of your sixth turn.
a.
btw, no secondary effects in PF.
Its A, except if you make the initial save you aren't affected by the poison at all. Search around, one of the designers has responded to this in a lot of detail a while back.
'
Alright, great, thanks a lot. :)
a.
btw, no secondary effects in PF.
Some poisons DO still have secondary effects.
Its A, except if you make the initial save you aren't affected by the poison at all. Search around, one of the designers has responded to this in a lot of detail a while back.
Which totally goes against the RAW. I'll not consider such a "designer house rule" official until I see errata.
As far as I'm concerned, if you get attacked and take damage, you are poisoned. Period. At the start of each of your turns following the attack, you make your saves.
It's the only real way the stacking DC rules for poisons even make much sense. For example, you are hit by three poisoned darts in the surprise round of a forest ambush. At the start of your turn you make a single save against the poison's DC +4. If you pass you are good to go for that round (and might even throw off the poison altogether if it only requires one save). If you fail, you suffer the full effects and its duration (which is doubled) begins. If the poison would normally last 6 rounds, you have 11 more to go.
Under any other interpretation I've seen, poisons are completely worthless crap.
yep, you're right there. not having my best day here.
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Which totally goes against the RAW. I'll not consider such a "designer house rule" official until I see errata.As far as I'm concerned, if you get attacked and take damage, you are poisoned. Period. At the start of each of your turns following the attack, you make your saves.
Actually its not against RAW. Under Afflictions:
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.
The save when you're first poisoned is to avoid becoming poisoned. The rest are to get rid of it if you failed your first save or to not be affected by its effects.
Actually its not against RAW. Under Afflictions:
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.The save when you're first poisoned is to avoid becoming poisoned. The rest are to get rid of it if you failed your first save or to not be affected by its effects.
That makes stacking poison effects a *****.
A guy gets hit with 3 darts in 1 round and makes 3 initial saves. That seems to be pretty clear.
A guy drinks a glass of wine which has 10 doses of poison. How many saves does he get?
A villain traps a hero in a gas chamber and pumps it with 100 doses of poison instantaneously. How many saves does he get?
Why does it seem like the game designers make the game rules MORE complicated just as often as they make it less complicated?
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Actually its not against RAW. Under Afflictions:
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.The save when you're first poisoned is to avoid becoming poisoned. The rest are to get rid of it if you failed your first save or to not be affected by its effects.That makes stacking poison effects a *****.
Did I get the rules right otherwise?
Assuming you failed all three dart attacks, yes. Immediately after you're hit by each dart you make a save vs. the base DC to see if you're affected by that dart's poison. If you fail all three its as your example. If you make one then on your turn its a save vs DC +2 and 8 more rounds of saves till you shake it off.
Assuming you failed all three dart attacks, yes. Immediately after you're hit by each dart you make a save vs. the base DC to see if you're affected by that dart's poison. If you fail all three its as your example. If you make one then on your turn its a save vs DC +2 and 8 more rounds of saves till you shake it off.
So if an adventurer gets hit by 3 poisoned darts in 1 round, with a base DC of 15, does it...
...force 3 DC 15 saves? (This interpretation makes poison practically worthless.)
...force a DC 15 save, DC 17 save, and DC 19 save (provided the first two fail)?
OVERLY COMPLEX I SAY!
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Assuming you failed all three dart attacks, yes. Immediately after you're hit by each dart you make a save vs. the base DC to see if you're affected by that dart's poison. If you fail all three its as your example. If you make one then on your turn its a save vs DC +2 and 8 more rounds of saves till you shake it off....force 3 DC 15 saves? (This interpretation makes poison practically worthless.)
This one. That's why you use it against rogues and arcane casters... ;)
But, future rounds will stack. Say you failed all three during the surprise round. Now you're looking at a DC 19 save on your round. If you fail that you've got 11 more rounds of saves (until you get rid of it) and then get attacked three more times and fail those. Your next round you've got a dc 25 save.
Now imagine it was con damage poison... Each failed saves makes the later saves harder. I think they simplified it quite well.
If you were instantly poisoned from every attack, it would make poison much too deadly. These rules are much better than 3.5, IMHO. Back then we were rolling a save for each poisoned attack and getting a ton of ability damage, at least at low levels...
Add on the new poisoner abilities of alchemists and rogues, and poison can get quite useful for pcs, or npcs... ;)
But, future rounds will stack. Say you failed all three during the surprise round. Now you're looking at a DC 19 save on your round. If you fail that you've got 11 more rounds of saves (until you get rid of it) and then get attacked three more times and fail those. Your next round you've got a dc 25 save.
Except most adventurers won't fail the initial saves required to raise the later ones. Considering that poison often comes in very limited doses due to its high cost, and will have little to no effect, there is little reason to include it in NPC combat encounters at all!
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What I'm still confused about -- even though there have been several threads concerning poisons -- is that does failing the first save (to see whether you contract the affliction or not) inflict the poison's effect on you? Or do you suffer the effect(s) only after failing the second save, i.e. the first save after contracting the affliction? And does the onset time of 1 round mean the beginning or the end of your next turn?
What I'm still confused about -- even though there have been several threads concerning poisons -- is that does failing the first save (to see whether you contract the affliction or not) inflict the poison's effect on you? Or do you suffer the effect(s) only after failing the second save, i.e. the first save after contracting the affliction? And does the onset time of 1 round mean the beginning or the end of your next turn?
From what I've heard from the designers in other threads, yes, you DO suffer the effects on that initial save upon exposure (provided you fail it anyways).
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.The save when you're first poisoned is to avoid becoming poisoned. The rest are to get rid of it if you failed your first save or to not be affected by its effects.
I'm not sure, the save to avoid contracting could only concern one-save-cure poisons.
And multiple doses seem to stack for the first save, and the count of rounds start after the contact/ingestion/injury/inhalation.For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Jeeze, there's SO much confusion on how poisons work, I'd love to see an official FAQ entry describing the process in detail. Some people say one thing, some say another, and everyone says, "the designers said". :(
So far, from what I'm understanding of what people have told me, it works like so:
Situation: Bob the Barbarian is attacked by three medium spiders. Each spider hits him, forcing him to make a saving throw. Bob is having an off day, so the following occurs:
Spider 1 bites him. He fails a DC 14 fortitude save and is thus afflicted with the poison, but takes no damage.
Spider 2 chomps his arm. Mmh, tasty! He then fails a second, DC 16 fortitude save (increased due to the poison already coursing through his veins), but again takes no damage.
Zoinks! Spider 3 gnaws on his shin. He fails again, this time on a DC 18 fortitude save, but takes no damage.
Next round he gets a turn. At the start of the turn, he must made a DC 18 fortitude save or take 1d2 strength damage. If he continually failed this save, this would go on for a total of 8 rounds.
Is that right?
Jeeze, there's SO much confusion on how poisons work, I'd love to see an official FAQ entry describing the process in detail. Some people say one thing, some say another, and everyone says, "the designers said". :(
So far, from what I'm understanding of what people have told me, it works like so:
Situation: Bob the Barbarian is attacked by three medium spiders. Each spider hits him, forcing him to make a saving throw. Bob is having an off day, so the following occurs:
Spider 1 bites him. He fails a DC 14 fortitude save and is thus afflicted with the poison, but takes no damage.
Spider 2 chomps his arm. Mmh, tasty! He then fails a second, DC 16 fortitude save (increased due to the poison already coursing through his veins), but again takes no damage.
Zoinks! Spider 3 gnaws on his shin. He fails again, this time on a DC 18 fortitude save, but takes no damage.
Next round he gets a turn. At the start of the turn, he must made a DC 18 fortitude save or take 1d2 strength damage. If he continually failed this save, this would go on for a total of 8 rounds.
Is that right?
Not quite. He would ALSO suffer the poison's effect on each of those failed saves.
Furthermore I'm not entirely certain the DC increases on saves two and three.
I tend to think Ravingdork's first post makes the most sense as to how to deal with poison.
Seems much more intuitive than...
This has been brought to my attention..
So.. here is the deal.
Whenever you are exposed to an affliction, you get a save to negate the affliction. If you fail, you must deal with all of its effects.
When it comes to poison, the first save, when exposed, is always at the base DC. If you fail and contract, that is when the duration adds and the DC goes up. There is a bit of poor wording in the poison text for this with the example, because it should mention that he was bitten three times and failed his first saves.
So... it would look like this.
PC A gets hit by poison arrow, fails DC 15 save.
PC A gets hit by second poison arrow, fails DC 15 save.
PC A gets a turn, must now make a DC 17 save once and takes the effect only once (after having taken the effect twice, once each time he was hit).I think that clears it up? If not, please provide further questions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Okay, just to be sure...
On init 20, assassin hits player with two arrows coated in Giant Wasp poison.
Player fails first save at base DC of 18, and therefore suffers 1d2 Dex damage immediately.
Player fails second save at base DC of 18, and therefore suffers 1d2 Dex damage immediately.
On init 10, the player must make another save at DC 20 to avoid another 1d2 Dex damage.
Is that correct?
As I am reading the rules, yes, although there is a bit of ambiguity here that is causing some issues. The affliction rules clearly state that when you are exposed, you make a save to see if you've contracted it. The effect section states that the effect occurs whenever you fail a save against the affliction (the exception here being for afflictions with an onset). The poison rules cover the stacking. The only thing that gets murky is when the next save occurs. Here the rules are unclear. Does it happen on the afflicted' turn or does it happen 1 round after the affliction was applied?
I am currently going with "on the afflicted' turn for a host of reasons. First, its a lot easier to track, based on the person. From a rules perspective, there is no other way to do poisons, since multiple doses might be afflicted on different initiative counts, even though they end up stacking into one. Third, when dealing with afflictions that have frequency of 1 day or longer, it all becomes relative to the afflicted.
So there we are... There is a bit of a double dip up front, but since the duration for these is often fixed, its just a matter of how quickly it works its way through you.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
[Other posters point out RAW contradictions in Bulmahn's post and ask for further clarification]
Let me give this a bit of thought folks, kick it around the office here, and see what we come up with. There is some ambiguity here and I want to make sure I get the right solution.
I think I am close, but there are a few things that need to be worked out.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
NOT EVEN THE GAME DESIGNERS KNOW HOW POISON WORKS! (click for threadnlink the click there for FAQ)
Well. . . . :(
I guess I'll just have my group hash it out and see what makes the most sense to us, heh. Thanks for that link. :)