There are no rules for shadows, and trying to come up with what casts which shadows during a fight is absurd in an RPG.
There are no rules for shadows, but we all know what a shadow is and how they appear. There's no need for rules about that. Of course giants cast shadows, unless they're surrounded by light sources, naked and evenly-surfaced.
The "limiter", as many others in the game, is mostly there for fluffiness and is designed to be relatively easily to get around (and to interpret the way you want as a GM). You just can't hide in the desert sun, or cross a brightly lit corridor, or you have to bring something to cast a shadow, that will not be hidden.Anyway.
Q: Why is the Assassin better at Hide in Plain Sight then the Shadowdancer?
A: (James Jacobs 3/4/10) The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example. In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
I'm tired of buying the "well, just treat it like we said this."
It is not cheesy. It is a smart play, but I will admit high level play is not for everyone, and that is why some DM's stop somewhere along level 13.Actually as proffered it was not smart play.
The assassin should not attempt to bluntly attack a large group of humanoids merely relying upon a moderate stealth ability, spring attack and death attack.
Rather the assassin should elect to gack a good number of them in their sleep...
Likewise if he's actually not able to be detected by whatever poor defenses his enemies have, he should fully scout the enemy area, poison the water supply, steal/swap spell components/consumables, etc.
That was not the case here. Here it was a player boasting that his PC was invulnerable and his DM failing his sense motive check against that Lammasu's bluff check...
-James
I was referring to the combination of high stealth and spring attack. I realize I was not clear though.
My point still stands. There are no rules for shadows, and trying to come up with what casts which shadows during a fight is absurd in an RPG. After a certain point, all of this ridiculous whinging about RAW is asinine. It's right up there with people seriously claiming that bull's strength doesn't add to Strength checks or that shields, while listed as martial weapons, can't be made into masterwork weapons.
Let's see, I agree with you on 2 out of 3 of those, but since I'm not in complete and total agreement with your every interpretation of every single rule, I'm "asinine." That's good to know.
Wait, aren't you the one constantly hawking your 3PP products on the boards? Oh yeah, I even remember defending you about it.
This must be the new cottage industry, come up with your own house rule and get suckers to pay you money to read it.
Those with drive and talent, create and prosper. Those without, say stupid things like this.
@Mark: Entrepreneurship is something to be celebrated. I wish you all the best in your endeavor.
Yeah, won't be making that mistake again.
Q: Why is the Assassin better at Hide in Plain Sight then the Shadowdancer?
A: (James Jacobs 3/4/10) The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example. In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
So what did he mean by that exactly? Are all shadows dim light? Or is all dim light shadow?
One leaves you with shadowdancers who can hide anywhere.
The other makes it so shadowdancers can't really use HiPS anywhere (certainly not within 10 feet of a torch or 50 feet of a daylight effect).
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Dim light is a lighting condition. The DM determines what parts of the battlefield are covered in dim light. Generally speaking, everything beyond the normal light area of a light source is dim light.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Dim light is a lighting condition. The DM determines what parts of the battlefield are covered in dim light. Generally speaking, everything beyond the normal light area of a light source is dim light.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Except you can hide in dim light already! If Hide in Plain Sight really only gives you the ability to hide an extra 10 feet into a lit area, that means it is all kinds of crappy. It is literally impossible to get the jump on the guy with the torch, even with a reach weapon!
EDIT: And just for the record, I think your interpretation is the correct one. I just think it REALLY SUCKS.
I take it as meaning that the kind of shadows necessary for HiPS begin at dim light, and that the required area of dim light can be the shadow cast by whatever object is around.
You can't hide in ambient shade (to use the example from the rules, the normal light areas under a forest canopy), but you can hide in the shadow of the guy holding the torch.
And as always with the stealth rules, it's dependent on how your DM describes the scene.
Back to the original poster - for what it's worth, if this came up in my game, I'd totally LET the guy go through the place, chewing through mooks. Maybe just tell the rest of the part that the assassin goes off for a few hours, and comes back covered in blood and perhaps carrying some part of the frost giant king. If he'd been a fighter, there may have been more noise in my description. It's perfectly fine to have high level characters rock out every now and again - just make sure everyone gets equal opportunties. Oh, and that thing they were fighting for - well, to do that they need to go to Hell. Or the Abyss. Or the bottom of a dungeon full of mean-spirited tricks a la the tomb of horrors.
If you want some flavor with that, describe a few encounters. A lonely, in-the-dark (terrified) mook backs up against a wall with some serious pain prepared as a ready action. It's a reasonable action, and /might/ result in a solid blow before mr. mook's inevitable doom. Make a series of perception checks as the assassin picks off giant after giant - /just maybe/ somebody will make one. Have one giant dowse him in hard alcohol when he strikes (even accidentally. you know giants and their booze) and another set him on fire with a torch from a ubiquitous wall-sconce.
But be quick about it, don't roll too many dice, and get back to the game. A "base full of mooks" just isn't a very exiting adventure site for 15th level PCs - it's a set piece to make them look good. ... but maybe NEXT TIME he tries this schtick, he blunders into a massive death trap - filled with hell-hounds and invisible, backward-pointing spikes in a hallway like an antlion trap - and barely comes out alive. Going it alone can cut both ways.
Second, if this thread proves nothing else, it does prove that you've got some wiggle room in the description of the power. So USE that wiggle room. REMEMBER: The role of "Dungeon Master" evolved out of a desire by certain wargamers to take actions the game rules did not allow for. This whole "come up with a plot and story line" thing came LATER. So do what the DM /should/ do and set a ruling on the limits of hide in plain sight that makes sense to you and the player, then explain how it's going to work and why. (Any reasonable player will help you do this. Reasonable players aren't going to complain, especially if you let them use their super-stealth to chew up an army of frost giants every now and again.)
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Those with drive and talent, create and prosper. Those without, say stupid things like this.
@Mark: Entrepreneurship is something to be celebrated. I wish you all the best in your endeavor.
Nah, you were right on the money when you wrote this. This statement is true regardless of whether or not you're unhappy with the language someone used in a subsequent, completely unrelated post. It's true in a vacuum, which is what makes it a great observation.
Shouldn't the assassin have to at least make a Stealth check to remain hidden the same way a sniper does? That's a fairly hefty penalty on the roll.
Wow.. it took 90 posts to get to this, and then everyone ignored it.
I know the thread has been about a lot of other things (and for this once, I agree with RavingDork - the "recognize" bit means through a disguise in the open - a stealthed assassin is a death-attacking assassin), but I thought it would be noticed sooner...
You can't *use* Hide in Plain Sight when you Spring Attack. You don't have an action to hide with. Certainly you can hope for initiative (if they aren't on alert/delaying from an attack just rounds ago) and run off and hide, but you can't do it the same round.
Technically, you can't even Spring Attack on a surprise round - you only have a standard action or a move, and you need both to Spring Attack.
Nah, you were right on the money when you wrote this. This statement is true regardless of whether or not you're unhappy with the language someone used in a subsequent, completely unrelated post. It's true in a vacuum, which is what makes it a great observation.
You're probably right. I'd go back and delete the previous post (the one on this thread), if I could.
Instead, I'll have to chalk it up as (yet another) reminder to myself to never PWA*. I'll learn, one of these days.
*Post While Annoyed
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Wow.. it took 90 posts to get to this, and then everyone ignored it.
I know the thread has been about a lot of other things (and for this once, I agree with RavingDork - the "recognize" bit means through a disguise in the open - a stealthed assassin is a death-attacking assassin), but I thought it would be noticed sooner...
You can't *use* Hide in Plain Sight when you Spring Attack. You don't have an action to hide with. Certainly you can hope for initiative (if they aren't on alert/delaying from an attack just rounds ago) and run off and hide, but you can't do it the same round.
Technically, you can't even Spring Attack on a surprise round - you only have a standard action or a move, and you need both to Spring Attack.
Incorrect, I'm afraid. Here's the quote from the Stealth skill:
'Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.'
You make a Stealth check 'as part of movement.' It is not a move action to roll Stealth; you merely must be moving, at which point you can roll Stealth as part of that movement. That means that Spring Attack + Stealth is totally valid. Full attack plus Stealth is not possible, and Spring Attack in a surprise round is, as you mentioned, not possible, since you can't take a full round action.
Also, the sniping penalty does not apply. Here's the text: 'Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.'
It allows someone even without HIPS to snipe and hide with a -20, in essence making a ranged attack without revealing their location if their Stealth is exceptional enough. Someone using HIPS gets to attack and move with no penalty to their Stealth at all. (Well, unless they're moving more than half their movement, at which point it's a -5 without the fast stealth rogue talent.)
Instead, I'll have to chalk it up as (yet another) reminder to myself to never PWA*. I'll learn, one of these days.
*Post While Annoyed
These things happen. It's best to never take anything personally unless one has an actual emotional investment in the source of the criticism. Given the high noise level on the Internet caused by jerks such as me, it's also good advice to remember these words, attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity."
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
1. The Assasin/Shadowdancer must have some kind of shadow within 10 feet other then his own. So something as basic as illuminating the entire room with light can prevent this. (Rangers using Camoflage and Hide in plain sight are much more effective)*sighs* This never works.
Putting a light source in a room with a bunch of giants is only going to create giant shadows for the assassin to use (pun fully intended). The ONLY way to get rid of shadows for the assassin to use is to (1) have the assassin alone in a brightly lit room WITH ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE (even a marble on the floor creates a shadow) or to (2) take out all the lights (total concealment makes HiPS moot and ruins sneak attacks/death attacks most of the time).
Putting a light source in the room doesn't work. Putting multiple light sources in a room does work.
If I have a 30'x30' room with a pillar in the middle. If I put a torch(20' radius) in each corner, in the center of each wall, and put 4 evenly spaced around the pillar, there will be no shadows in the room. further, there is enough light coming from enough directions that people standing in the room will not have a shadow.
So, if I am holding a torch above my head, I illuminate everything for 20' around me. My friend standing next to me is also holding a torch. The torches negate the shadows generated by the other torch. If an assassin tries to attack me by spring attacking from the shadows, they become visible when they are still 10 feet away from me.
Putting a light source in the room doesn't work. Putting multiple light sources in a room does work.
If I have a 30'x30' room with a pillar in the middle. If I put a torch(20' radius) in each corner, in the center of each wall, and put 4 evenly spaced around the pillar, there will be no shadows in the room.
Either way, If I am holding a torch, I illuminate everything for 20' around me. My friend standing next to me is also holding a torch. The torches negate the shadows generated by the other torch. If an assassin tries to attack me by spring attacking from the shadows, they become visible when they are still 10 feet away from me.
That might work if you have something especially bright. Four torches would most likely create four shadows around the pillar. Think of any of the cave scenes from Lost.
That might work if you have something especially bright. Four torches would most likely create four shadows.Putting a light source in the room doesn't work. Putting multiple light sources in a room does work.
If I have a 30'x30' room with a pillar in the middle. If I put a torch(20' radius) in each corner, in the center of each wall, and put 4 evenly spaced around the pillar, there will be no shadows in the room.
Either way, If I am holding a torch, I illuminate everything for 20' around me. My friend standing next to me is also holding a torch. The torches negate the shadows generated by the other torch. If an assassin tries to attack me by spring attacking from the shadows, they become visible when they are still 10 feet away from me.
Not really. I am sitting in an office building lit by lots of indirect lighting(most of the light is bounced off the white ceiling). It is enough light coming from multiple directions that I don't generate a shadow. The light isn't really all that bright, there are just a bunch of sources of it.
That is the other thing, if you mirror the walls or make them out of white marble, they will act as light reflectors, and thus cancel out a lot of shadows. A cave with black or brown walls would have a lot of shadows. An ice cave or a marble hall would have a lot of reflected light. This would act similar to a secondary light source.
These things happen. It's best to never take anything personally unless one has an actual emotional investment in the source of the criticism. Given the high noise level on the Internet caused by jerks such as me, it's also good advice to remember these words, attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity."
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
You weren't being a jerk. You were just stating your opinion. I shouldn't have taken it personally. Mea Culpa.
And again, good luck with Spes Magna Games. I really do admire what you're doing.
You weren't being a jerk. You were just stating your opinion. I shouldn't have taken it personally. Mea Culpa.
Aw, c'mon. We can both be right. I was a jerk, and you shouldn't have taken it personally. Mea maxima culpa! :)
And again, good luck with Spes Magna Games. I really do admire what you're doing.
Thanks! If you'd like, send me an email at mark at spesmagna dot com to request a free PDF of your choice from my small catalog.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games