So a Player Character from a rural community who fails that check has no clue what a cow is?Again, I don't think we have the same logic or the same taste in game flavoring, you and I.
Wyverns are natural to a fantasy world just as wolves were natural to medieval times in the real world.
Not like some mythical beings that were told about around the campfire but didn't exist, because in the game world these beings exist. They are there. You see them flying around. Of course you know what they are and what they do. Heck, you can even buy (in-game) Ye Olde Bestiary to read about it.Being that any accurate knowledge about Wyverns requires a DC 16 Knowledge(Arcana) check and you cannot make that check untrained, I am afraid I have to disagree and say that knowing about Wyverns is not common place. To know even 1 piece of information about wyverns, you would have to have ranks in knowledge(arcana) and make a DC 16 knowledge check. That alone eliminates a significant portion of the general population. Knowing a significant amount of accurate information(like 3 pieces of useful information) would be a DC 26. Not exactly a check the every commoner can make untrained.Open question to those who state that PCs cannot know even general rumours about a creature, unless the gathering of that info has been personally overseen by the GM, in session, or was the result of a needlessly high Knowledge check*;
A cow is a common CR1 creature , that makes it a DC6 knowledge check. Knowledge checks under DC10 can be made untrained. With 3 d20 the highest result is going to be a 15 on average, safe to assume someone is going to make it.
Anyhow, my work here is done, we reach 1000...
If you have actually seen the animal in question and someone else ID it for you, then no roll is needed.
All a knowledge check would serve at that point is to see who could come up with the most inane facts like cows have 4 stomachs.
So a Player Character from a rural community who fails that check has no clue what a cow is?Again, I don't think we have the same logic or the same taste in game flavoring, you and I.
Wyverns are natural to a fantasy world just as wolves were natural to medieval times in the real world.
Not like some mythical beings that were told about around the campfire but didn't exist, because in the game world these beings exist. They are there. You see them flying around. Of course you know what they are and what they do. Heck, you can even buy (in-game) Ye Olde Bestiary to read about it.Being that any accurate knowledge about Wyverns requires a DC 16 Knowledge(Arcana) check and you cannot make that check untrained, I am afraid I have to disagree and say that knowing about Wyverns is not common place. To know even 1 piece of information about wyverns, you would have to have ranks in knowledge(arcana) and make a DC 16 knowledge check. That alone eliminates a significant portion of the general population. Knowing a significant amount of accurate information(like 3 pieces of useful information) would be a DC 26. Not exactly a check the every commoner can make untrained.Open question to those who state that PCs cannot know even general rumours about a creature, unless the gathering of that info has been personally overseen by the GM, in session, or was the result of a needlessly high Knowledge check*;
A cow is a common CR1 creature , that makes it a DC6 knowledge check. Knowledge checks under DC10 can be made untrained. With 3 d20 the highest result is going to be a 15 on average, safe to assume someone is going to make it.
Anyhow, my work here is done, we reach 1000...
If you have actually seen the animal in question and someone else ID it for you, then no roll is needed.
All a knowledge check would...
How many stomachs do wyverns have?
So for example if my character Farmer Joe rolls very high on his Knowledge (cows) checks he would not only know that a cow is not purple and that it has 4 stomachs, he would also know that those strange big flying monsters he has never been able to identify, likes to snack on them?
So a Player Character from a rural community who fails that check has no clue what a cow is?Again, I don't think we have the same logic or the same taste in game flavoring, you and I.
Wyverns are natural to a fantasy world just as wolves were natural to medieval times in the real world.
Not like some mythical beings that were told about around the campfire but didn't exist, because in the game world these beings exist. They are there. You see them flying around. Of course you know what they are and what they do. Heck, you can even buy (in-game) Ye Olde Bestiary to read about it.Being that any accurate knowledge about Wyverns requires a DC 16 Knowledge(Arcana) check and you cannot make that check untrained, I am afraid I have to disagree and say that knowing about Wyverns is not common place. To know even 1 piece of information about wyverns, you would have to have ranks in knowledge(arcana) and make a DC 16 knowledge check. That alone eliminates a significant portion of the general population. Knowing a significant amount of accurate information(like 3 pieces of useful information) would be a DC 26. Not exactly a check the every commoner can make untrained.Open question to those who state that PCs cannot know even general rumours about a creature, unless the gathering of that info has been personally overseen by the GM, in session, or was the result of a needlessly high Knowledge check*;
A cow is a common CR1 creature , that makes it a DC6 knowledge check. Knowledge checks under DC10 can be made untrained. With 3 d20 the highest result is going to be a 15 on average, safe to assume someone is going to make it.
Anyhow, my work here is done, we reach 1000...
If you have actually seen the animal in question and someone else ID it for you, then no roll is needed.
All a knowledge check would...
MR Ducks.
So for example if my character Farmer Joe rolls very high on his Knowledge (cows) checks he would not only know that a cow is not purple and that it has 4 stomachs, he would also know that those strange big flying monsters he has never been able to identify, likes to snack on them?
If you have actually witnessed a wyvern eat a cow, then no knowledge check is necessary. You may not know it was a wyvern, but you would know that whatever that thing was likes cows.
Now if you knew a lot about cows, then you would know they are pretty defenseless, and LOTS of predators like to eat them. Wyverns are hardly the only thing that eats cows.
If a wizard fails a knowledge (arcana) check to know he is a wizard will he never find out?
I would say Farmer Joe probably thought it was a Faerie Dragon, and if it is meta-gaming to use any monster name at all for him to try to identify it, then he would just think it was a dire seagull.
If a wizard fails a knowledge (arcana) check to know he is a wizard will he never find out?
Now you are just being silly, knowledge(arcana) only identifies constructs, dragons, and magical beasts, so unless the wizard was also a golem, he is using the wrong skill to identify himself....
If a wizard fails a knowledge (arcana) check to know he is a wizard will he never find out?Now you are just being silly, knowledge(arcana) only identifies constructs, dragons, and magical beasts, so unless the wizard was also a golem, he is using the wrong skill to identify himself....
What would the right skill be?
My point is some concepts that are natural to the fantasy world, should be commonly known and not require a skill check to identify.
My point is some concepts that are natural to the fantasy world, should be commonly known and not require a skill check to identify.
And my point is that
A. It could have just as easily have been some kind of real dragon, or a roc that carried off the cow. At a 500 paces in the fading light of twilight, I don't think I could tell the difference between a wyvern and copper dragon. If I am less that 500 paces, then you can bet money my level 1 commoner butt is running away, not sitting there taking notes for a police composite sketch.B. It is not safe to assume the your character know every detail of every creature in the bestary. Terrasques are very, very rare creatures. Most adventurers haven't even heard of them, much less would know the exact method necessary to bring about a terrasque's final death.
C. Most predators are nocturnal. So even IF farmer Joe grew up on a farm, and IF that farm was frequently raided by wyverns, that still doesn't mean he has actually seen a wyvern. He has probably only seen the mess they leave behind when they take a cow.
My point is some concepts that are natural to the fantasy world, should be commonly known and not require a skill check to identify.
Spellcraft. That way when he casts a spell he can be sure to know what spell it is.
My point is some concepts that are natural to the fantasy world, should be commonly known and not require a skill check to identify.And my point is that
A. It could have just as easily have been some kind of real dragon, or a roc that carried off the cow. At a 500 paces in the fading light of twilight, I don't think I could tell the difference between a wyvern and copper dragon. If I am less that 500 paces, then you can bet money my level 1 commoner butt is running away, not sitting there taking notes for a police composite sketch.B. It is not safe to assume the your character know every detail of every creature in the bestary. Terrasques are very, very rare creatures. Most adventurers haven't even heard of them, much less would know the exact method necessary to bring about a terrasque's final death.
A. You need to look closer at the art and descriptions if you think copper dragons, rocs and wyverns look alike. I don't understand paces. Do you think wyverns are nocturnal? That's an interesting perspective. In my perfect fantasy world wyverns are the less intelligant, less evolved version of dragons, just as chimpanses are that to humans in the real world. (Oh my god, was that a racist statement?)
B. I thought only one Tarrasque existed. And I don't like it, so it does not exist in any fantasy world of mine. I cannot picture how it wouldn't have a disastrous effect on any civilization. Wyverns on the contrary, in my perfect fantasy world there are common in the skies, and dragons are rare.
My point is some concepts that are natural to the fantasy world, should be commonly known and not require a skill check to identify.Spellcraft. That way when he casts a spell he can be sure to know what spell it is.
Lol. Thought he already knew that since he has already studdied it, inscribed it and prepared it.
A. You need to look closer at the art and descriptions if you think copper dragons, rocs and wyverns look alike. I don't understand paces. Do you think wyverns are nocturnal? That's an interesting perspective. In my perfect fantasy world wyverns are the less intelligant, less evolved version of dragons, just as chimpanses are that to humans in the real world. (Oh my god, was that a racist statement?)B. I thought only one Tarrasque existed. And I don't like it, so it does not exist in any fantasy world of mine. I cannot picture how it wouldn't have a disastrous effect on any civilization. Wyverns on the contrary, in my perfect fantasy world there are common in the skies, and dragons are rare.
I think the point he's making is that eye witnesses are extremely unreliable when they are scared.
Here's an example. When I was growing up, I used to go visit my uncle's farm in North Carolina. One summer one of my cousins (late teens early 20's) swore up and down that a bear came out of the woods, roared at him, and nearly took his head off.
When my uncle (with a rifle) went to go look, he didn't find any bears.
What he did find was an old bobcat sitting on the ground eating my cousins lunch, which it'd ripped out of the paper bag he was carrying (he'd sat down on the rock to eat his lunch).
So, my adult or nearly so cousin saw, in broad daylight, a bobcat leap onto the rock next to him, but he swore it was a bear (and believes to this day that it was a bear, not a bobcat).
So, let's say a farmer is looking out on his field at dusk, all the colors are off due to that, and he see's a large reptile creature leap out of the woods and drag ol Bessie into the forestline. He's not going to be sure what it is, other than a big nasty looking thing that ate poor old Bessie in one bite and nearly killed him! It could have been a copper dragon, a green wyrmling, a wyvern, or quite possibly a bear or a mountain lion.
A. You need to look closer at the art and descriptions if you think copper dragons, rocs and wyverns look alike. I don't understand paces. Do you think wyverns are nocturnal? That's an interesting perspective. In my perfect fantasy world wyverns are the less intelligant, less evolved version of dragons, just as chimpanses are that to humans in the real world. (Oh my god, was that a racist statement?)
That is exactly my point, they look nothing alike. We are talking about seeing something that is 500 yards(a pace is roughly a yard for most people). That is a +150 to the DC of all of all perception checks. Even if I was brave, and was only 200 feet away, that is +20 to perception checks. Throw in some penalties for bad lighting, and I doubt the average level 1 commoner with a perception of maybe +3 will see anything other than a flying blur that sweeps in and flies off with a cow.
B. I thought only one Tarrasque existed. And I don't like it, so it does not exist in any fantasy world of mine. I cannot picture how it wouldn't have a disastrous effect on any civilization. Wyverns on the contrary, in my perfect fantasy world there are common in the skies, and dragons are rare.
There is only 1 problem with that "Environment temperate or warm hills
" They are not exactly "common in the skies" everywhere you go. I have gone whole campaigns without encountering a single wyvern.I doubt a nomad who grew up in the desert, an eskimo on the tundra, or a sailor who grew up on a small island has even heard to a wyvern, because they simply don't exist where they grew up.
A kid who grew up on a farm near temperate or warm hills has probably heard of them, but I still doubt he has actually seen one and what he knows about them is probably the exact same thing his father would say about any perdator that eats their livelyhood. "<Insert predator here> is just wants to eat our livelyhood, now go round up the cows and get them into the barn before the sun goes down son."
Plausible indeed.
Interesting anecdote bout your cousin and uncle.
Only thing I am saying is that wyverns should be common enough (much less rare than dragons) that most people (except for maybe the village idiot) would be able to identify them for what they are (in daylight) just as they would be able to identify a dwarf, an elf or an orc.
Lol. Thought he already knew that since he has already studdied it, inscribed it and prepared it.My point is some concepts that are natural to the fantasy world, should be commonly known and not require a skill check to identify.Spellcraft. That way when he casts a spell he can be sure to know what spell it is.
I really need to use the /sarcasm tag.
I'm all for neutral and moral grey and morally ambiguous events...
...But two wyverns outside an evil dungeon in a nest filled with human bones who've been munchin' on adventurers? That's not really morally ambiguous :p
Plausible indeed.
Interesting anecdote bout your cousin and uncle.
Only thing I am saying is that wyverns should be common enough (much less rare than dragons) that most people (except for maybe the village idiot) would be able to identify them for what they are (in daylight) just as they would be able to identify a dwarf, an elf or an orc.
I disagree.
In my worlds, they are average commonality. Dragons are rare, most species of humanoids are common.
This means a dwarf would be a DC 6(5 common base DC + 1 CR) knowledge(local) check. You can make knowledge checks DC 10 or less untrained, so even if you had never met a dwarf, you would recognize them 75% of the time with a +0 knowledge modifier.
Wyverns are DC 16(10 average base + 6 CR) knowledge(arcana) check. So if you had never met or interacted with a wyvern, you wouldn't know what is was. A level 5 wizard would have roughly a +10 knowledge(arcana) check, so they would recognize a wyvern about 75% of the time. On an average roll they would know 2 pieces of useful information. As a DM I would probably tell them about the poison in the stinger, and that they are basically dumb dragons.
Even if you made wyverns common in your world, the DC is still 11. The level 5 wizard would know a wyvern, but anyone without knowledge arcana wouldn't.
Dragons are a little harder because they have a wide range of CRs. A wyrmling gold dragon is CR 7, so knowing about them would be a DC 22(15 rare base + 7 CR) knowledge(arcana) check.
The whole point of the knowledge system is so that the DM and players will have an idea of what their characters do and do not know.
Plausible indeed.
Interesting anecdote bout your cousin and uncle.
Only thing I am saying is that wyverns should be common enough (much less rare than dragons) that most people (except for maybe the village idiot) would be able to identify them for what they are (in daylight) just as they would be able to identify a dwarf, an elf or an orc.
Not really. Wait though, follow me on this.
Wyvern's only stake out an 8 mile area. If you're talking about how it was in mideivel times, most people didn't go much farther themselves, only merchants and soldiers and entertainers. So, the local farmers might have heard tales of a wyvern, but those tales are going to be exagerated. I'm sure the average farmer couldn't tell the difference between a wyvern and a dragon if they both came up at the same time and said 'Boo' to them.
A soldier probably would have a better knowledge about it, as would a bard/entertainer who travels all over. A merchant, who has to deal with all sorts of things, even better.
The average adventuring party probably has a decent chance of knowing, as would the average druid or ranger. But the average farmer or villager wouldn't know a wyvern from a dragon from a draconne from a dinosaur.
Plausible indeed.
Interesting anecdote bout your cousin and uncle.
Only thing I am saying is that wyverns should be common enough (much less rare than dragons) that most people (except for maybe the village idiot) would be able to identify them for what they are (in daylight) just as they would be able to identify a dwarf, an elf or an orc.
I disagree.
In my worlds, they are average commonality. Dragons are rare, most species of humanoids are common.
This means a dwarf would be a DC 6(5 common base DC + 1 CR) knowledge(local) check. You can make knowledge checks DC 10 or less untrained, so even if you had never met a dwarf, you would recognize them 75% of the time with a +0 knowledge modifier.
Wyverns are DC 16(10 average base + 6 CR) knowledge(arcana) check. So if you had never met or interacted with a wyvern, you wouldn't know what is was. A level 5 wizard would have roughly a +10 knowledge(arcana) check, so they would recognize a wyvern about 75% of the time. On an average roll they would know 2 pieces of useful information. As a DM I would probably tell them about the poison in the stinger, and that they are basically dumb dragons.
Even if you made wyverns common in your world, the DC is still 11. The level 5 wizard would know a wyvern, but anyone without knowledge arcana wouldn't.
Dragons are a little harder because they have a wide range of CRs. A wyrmling gold dragon is CR 7, so knowing about them would be a DC 22(15 rare base + 7 CR) knowledge(arcana) check.
The whole point of the knowledge system is so that the DM and players will have an idea of what their characters do and do not know.
That's way too rules mechanics-oriented for my liking and much less make this fantasy world something you could exist in-oriented IMO.
And would cause many silly situations IMO.
But I have no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with me Charender. Let's agree to disagree.
That's way too rules mechanics-oriented for my liking and much less make this fantasy world something you could exist in-oriented IMO.And would cause many silly situations IMO.
But I have no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with me Charender. Let's agree to disagree.
I am just giving you the RAW. I prefer to use that as a baseline, then handwave when odd situations come up. It results in a world where the average commoner is pretty ignorant.
Here is a question for you. If you make it so that knowledge of CR6(or CR8 or CR10) creatures and under is common knowledge, what is the point in players investing in knowledge skills when they already know so much by default?
That's way too rules mechanics-oriented for my liking and much less make this fantasy world something you could exist in-oriented IMO.And would cause many silly situations IMO.
But I have no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with me Charender. Let's agree to disagree.
I am just giving you the RAW. I prefer to use that as a baseline, then handwave when odd situations come up. It results in a world where the average commoner is pretty ignorant.
Here is a question for you. If you make it so that knowledge of CR6(or CR8 or CR10) creatures and under is common knowledge, what is the point in players investing in knowledge skills when they already know so much by default?
Let me begin with stating that there is a difference between common knowledge and expertise knowledge. Common knowledge is that which "everybody knows" ("everybody" in a specific community), and expertise knowledge (a knowledge skill) being acquired by a person through experience or education.
In a village where the local farmers have sighted and had problems with wyverns for centuries, where the local authorities have often had to hire adventurers to deal with the wyverns at times when they became too much for the community itself to handle, and where the local evil-doers have a history of using the wyverns for various purposes such as guards, mounts and hunters, wyverns are common knowledge, and thus people who are local to this area would easily be able to identify a wyvern without a check.
The wyverns' weaknesses, strengths, eating capacities, specific sightings and encounters, nest locations, purposes for harvested scales, feathers, poison etc, would all qualify as expertise knowledge, requiring a knowledge check. The expertise knowledge would be reserved by the rangers who are specialized in hunting wyverns, the assassin who uses its poison, and the wizard who uses its scales for enchanting purposes (just examples).
Here is a question for you. If you make it so that knowledge of CR6(or CR8 or CR10) creatures and under is common knowledge, what is the point in players investing in knowledge skills when they already know so much by default?Interestingly enough I have a similar take on what the baseline of knowledge is and it does nothing to stem the purchase of Knowledge skills. Simply players know enough to survive in their world, and Knowledge skills are essentially a specialization in a specific field of study. As someone without Knowledge (Nature), I would still assume an individual would be able to identify local flora, and fauna automatically. They would even know which ones are likely dangerous, and how to generally avoid making a fatal mistake. The things they won't know are the specifics, such as mating season dates, pollination schedules, what animals assist in the plants mating process, why exactly something is dangerous, how it is dangerous, other uses for animal parts or plants, proper harvesting and husbandry for these animals or plants, why the general knowledge is general knowledge and hence methods to exploit the details, coloration differences between male and female, nesting habits.
Sounds like a lots of that stuff is covered under the survival skill.
As someone who has gone camping with a lot of city boys, none of that knowledge is exactly common.
To me common knowledge is anything that is under a DC 10 knowledge check, or anything you can do with an untrained survival check.
It is kind of like the generally well known fact that mallard ducks pair off until only one female remains, and then she gets gang raped by the remaining males. Some of these males will engage in male rape, and one was even filmed engaging in homosexual necrophilia. Common knowledge, no roll, pretty detailed, interesting, but most likely useless outside of surmising that mallard ducks are pretty determined during mating season. This is why many of us have no problem with the Paladin knowing that wyverns are vicoious, mean tempered, and carnivorous, and making an appropriate decision erring on the side of caution.
I can see that being common knowledge where you grew up, but where I grew up, there are no ducks, and thus no one knows any of that. I didn't know any of that until I read it just now.
Actually Survival as described in the Core Rulebook appears to be more about land navigation, terrain hazards, weather hazards, how to start a fire with flint and steel, how to dress an animal, how to test local flora for edibility (not necessarily identifying them reliably), ho wto set a basic snare, how to bait a hook, how to build a lean to or similar shelter, general trends in poisonous animals, cold weather survival, desert survival, how to make water potable, and how to track things.Sounds like a lots of that stuff is covered under the survival skill.
As someone who has gone camping with a lot of city boys, none of that knowledge is exactly common.
To me common knowledge is anything that is under a DC 10 knowledge check, or anything you can do with an untrained survival check.
Fair enough.
I would expect a kid who grew up on a farm would have 1 rank of knowledge(nature) personally. Meanwhile, the guy who grew in a major city(like Waterdeep in FR) wouldn't know anything beyond "It's a plant, It has leaves and stuff"
Actually Survival as described in the Core Rulebook appears to be more about land navigation, terrain hazards, weather hazards, how to start a fire with flint and steel, how to dress an animal, how to test local flora for edibility (not necessarily identifying them reliably), ho wto set a basic snare, how to bait a hook, how to build a lean to or similar shelter, general trends in poisonous animals, cold weather survival, desert survival, how to make water potable, and how to track things.Sounds like a lots of that stuff is covered under the survival skill.
As someone who has gone camping with a lot of city boys, none of that knowledge is exactly common.
To me common knowledge is anything that is under a DC 10 knowledge check, or anything you can do with an untrained survival check.
Fair enough.
I would expect a kid who grew up on a farm would have 1 rank of knowledge(nature) personally. Meanwhile, the guy who grew in a major city(like Waterdeep in FR) wouldn't know anything beyond "It's a plant, It has leaves and stuff"
The kid who grew up on a farm shouldn't have to make a skill check to know certain things about farmlife, which are common knowledge to farmers... What if he failed his check to know what grain or a chicken is, that would be plain dumb.
The kid who grew up on a farm shouldn't have to make a skill check to know certain things about farmlife, which are common knowledge to farmers... What if he failed his check to know what grain or a chicken is, that would be plain dumb.
That's because you're all missing the fact that job related things are Profession skills.
Your kid who grew up on a farm would have 'Profession (<type> Farmer)' at least one rank. That would give him basic knowledge around the farm, depending on what the farm did. A wheat farm would give him stuff about growing seasons, harvesting, drying and cracking wheat. What animals like to come in and eat wheat, what diseases affect wheat, etc. He'd have some general purpose knowledge about horses (what to feed them, how to muck out stalls), how to get eggs without geting pecked, and how to get milk without getting kicked.
A kid who grew up on a dairy farm would have general knowledge about cows, butchering, how to milk cows, how to make butter and cheese, what diseases affect cows, what animals attack them, etc. Along with the same general knowledge about eggs and horses.
None of that is 'knowledge (blah)', it's all profession skill.
The kid who grew up on a farm shouldn't have to make a skill check to know certain things about farmlife, which are common knowledge to farmers... What if he failed his check to know what grain or a chicken is, that would be plain dumb.Actually Survival as described in the Core Rulebook appears to be more about land navigation, terrain hazards, weather hazards, how to start a fire with flint and steel, how to dress an animal, how to test local flora for edibility (not necessarily identifying them reliably), ho wto set a basic snare, how to bait a hook, how to build a lean to or similar shelter, general trends in poisonous animals, cold weather survival, desert survival, how to make water potable, and how to track things.Sounds like a lots of that stuff is covered under the survival skill.
As someone who has gone camping with a lot of city boys, none of that knowledge is exactly common.
To me common knowledge is anything that is under a DC 10 knowledge check, or anything you can do with an untrained survival check.
Fair enough.
I would expect a kid who grew up on a farm would have 1 rank of knowledge(nature) personally. Meanwhile, the guy who grew in a major city(like Waterdeep in FR) wouldn't know anything beyond "It's a plant, It has leaves and stuff"
Take a 10 perhaps? Of course, if he isn't that bright, then taking a 10 will only help so much.
You are also forgetting that if it is something you have direct first hand experience with, then no knowledge check is required. If you dad showed you how to milk a cow, then unless you are a drooling retard, you can probably remember that milk comes from cows, and how to get it. If you worked on a farm with cows, and someone asked you about raising goats, then a knowledge check would be required.
You guys think I am kidding, but there are people who believe peaches come from a can, and milk comes from the supermarket.
The kid who grew up on a farm shouldn't have to make a skill check to know certain things about farmlife, which are common knowledge to farmers... What if he failed his check to know what grain or a chicken is, that would be plain dumb.
That's because you're all missing the fact that job related things are Profession skills.
Your kid who grew up on a farm would have 'Profession (<type> Farmer)' at least one rank. That would give him basic knowledge around the farm, depending on what the farm did. A wheat farm would give him stuff about growing seasons, harvesting, drying and cracking wheat. What animals like to come in and eat wheat, what diseases affect wheat, etc. He'd have some general purpose knowledge about horses (what to feed them, how to muck out stalls), how to get eggs without geting pecked, and how to get milk without getting kicked.
A kid who grew up on a dairy farm would have general knowledge about cows, butchering, how to milk cows, how to make butter and cheese, what diseases affect cows, what animals attack them, etc. Along with the same general knowledge about eggs and horses.
None of that is 'knowledge (blah)', it's all profession skill.
I acknowledge that, mdt. I would like you to reply to my common knowledge/expertise knowledge post above, so you maybe better can understand where I am coming from and where I am going with this.
I would expect both of them to know the basics simply because they are not growing up in a modern industrialized society. That kid from Waterdeep might not have the practical application, but he is bound to have come in contact with the same things and he may know some basic things the country boy does not. Everything does not need to be covered or modeled by a skill, or ranks in a skill, I think that is the core issue.
Fair enough.I would expect a kid who grew up on a farm would have 1 rank of knowledge(nature) personally. Meanwhile, the guy who grew in a major city(like Waterdeep in FR) wouldn't know anything beyond "It's a plant, It has leaves and stuff"
But that is exactly my point. A city boy is going to know some things a country boy will not, and vice versa. That is exactly what knowledge skills are supposed to model.
I would expect a reasonable intelligent(int 12) city boy to know a lot of stuff under a DC 10 when it comes to knowledge(nature). Identifying common plants is a DC5 check. Meanwhile he will have a rank in knowledge(local) and will quite a bit about the city he grew up in(has a 5% chance of making a DC22 knowledge check).
A country boy would be the same way with the skills reversed. With a lucky check the country boy could probably tell the difference between wolf and bear tracks, the city boy couldn't.
I acknowledge that, mdt. I would like you to reply to my common knowledge/expertise knowledge post above, so you maybe better can understand where I am coming from and where I am going with this.
You mean the thing about failing a skill roll and not knowing how to breath for example? Sorry, I just glossed over that because it is, to me, a strawman argument. That's not to be meant as an insult, it's just that I think you're trying to make your point by going to an extreme nobody has attempted to go to.
Could a farm boy make a mistake between two different types of corn? Absolutely. Could he fail to recognize corn as corn? It all depends on whether or not corn is common on farms. If he's a mushroom farmer in the underdark, then yeah, he probably would. He would know a mushroom from a toadstool, but might mix up two species of toadstools or two species of mushrooms if they were similar.
No one has said you need to make a skill check to see if you know corn is corn if you've ever encountered corn before. Telling dent corn from flint corn, on the other hand, probably would require a skill check. Same as no-one said you need a skill roll to know a cow from a horse, but knowing a brahman from a boran or a quarter horse from a thoroughbred probably would.
I acknowledge that, mdt. I would like you to reply to my common knowledge/expertise knowledge post above, so you maybe better can understand where I am coming from and where I am going with this.You mean the thing about failing a skill roll and not knowing how to breath for example? Sorry, I just glossed over that because it is, to me, a strawman argument. That's not to be meant as an insult, it's just that I think you're trying to make your point by going to an extreme nobody has attempted to go to.
Could a farm boy make a mistake between two different types of corn? Absolutely. Could he fail to recognize corn as corn? It all depends on whether or not corn is common on farms. If he's a mushroom farmer in the underdark, then yeah, he probably would. He would know a mushroom from a toadstool, but might mix up two species of toadstools or two species of mushrooms if they were similar.
No one has said you need to make a skill check to see if you know corn is corn if you've ever encountered corn before. Telling dent corn from flint corn, on the other hand, probably would require a skill check. Same as no-one said you need a skill roll to know a cow from a horse, but knowing a brahman from a boran or a quarter horse from a thoroughbred probably would.
Have no idea what you are talking about there, whatsoever.
The post went like this:
Let me begin with stating that there is a difference between common knowledge and expertise knowledge. Common knowledge is that which "everybody knows" ("everybody" in a specific community), and expertise knowledge (a knowledge skill) being acquired by a person through experience or education.
In a village where the local farmers have sighted and had problems with wyverns for centuries, where the local authorities have often had to hire adventurers to deal with the wyverns at times when they became too much for the community itself to handle, and where the local evil-doers have a history of using the wyverns for various purposes such as guards, mounts and hunters, wyverns are common knowledge, and thus people who are local to this area would easily be able to identify a wyvern without a check.
The wyverns' weaknesses, strengths, eating capacities, specific sightings and encounters, nest locations, purposes for harvested scales, feathers, poison etc, would all qualify as expertise knowledge, requiring a knowledge check. The expertise knowledge would be reserved by the rangers who are specialized in hunting wyverns, the assassin who uses its poison, and the wizard who uses its scales for enchanting purposes (just examples).
I quite get your point, everything requires a roll. My point is everything does not require a roll. That is the fundamental difference.
But that is exactly my point. A city boy is going to know some things a country boy will not, and vice versa. That is exactly what knowledge skills are supposed to model.I would expect a reasonable intelligent(int 12) city boy to know a lot of stuff under a DC 10 when it comes to knowledge(nature). Identifying common plants is a DC5 check. Meanwhile he will have a rank in knowledge(local) and will quite a bit about the city he grew up in(has a 5% chance of making a DC22 knowledge check).
A country boy would be the same way with the skills reversed. With a lucky check the country boy could probably tell the difference between wolf and bear tracks, the city boy couldn't.
Same here.
Have no idea what you are talking about there, whatsoever.
Ah, I was referring to a later post where you said 'What if a farmer failed his check about chickens and didn't know what they were then?' or something like that.
The post went like this:Let me begin with stating that there is a difference between common knowledge and expertise knowledge. Common knowledge is that which "everybody knows" ("everybody" in a specific community), and expertise knowledge (a knowledge skill) being acquired by a person through experience or education.
In a village where the local farmers have sighted and had problems with wyverns for centuries, where the local authorities have often had to hire adventurers to deal with the wyverns at times when they became too much for the community itself to handle, and where the local evil-doers have a...
That's up to the GM, and his backstory.
If the town is constantly being attacked by wyverns, and has been for generations, then yeah, they would all know what a wyvern looked like (because they'd have all encountered one, or seen a dead one). You don't have to roll for things you've personally seen.
If the town is regularly attacked by wyverns, but not constantly, then yeah, again, most of them would probably be able to id a wyvern on sight, but they might mistake a blue dragon wyrmling for a wyvern (both being blue).
If the town is attacked by a wyvern every couple of years, then no, not everyone would be able to id a wyvern on sight. That is, they might know a wyvern when they see it, but they will probably mistake dragons or dinosaurs for wyverns also.
If the town is attacked by a wyvern every 10 years or so, then most of them probably would mis-identify a wyvern (as above).
If the town is attacked by a wyvern every 20 years or so, then no, most of them aren't going to know one on sight, they'll just say 'A dragon attacked!' as dragons are much more well known than wyverns.
If the town is attacked even less often than that, the locals are probably going to say 'Wyverwhat?'.
A dark blue dragon, its wings immense and its tail tipped with a hooked stinger, lands on two taloned feet and roars a challenge.
Wyverns are nasty, brutish, and violent reptilian beasts akin to more powerful dragons. They are always aggressive and impatient, and are quick to resort to force in order to accomplish their goals. For this reason, dragons generally look down upon wyverns, considering their distant cousins nothing more than primitive savages with a distinct lack of style or wit. In most cases, this generalization is spot-on. Although far from animalistic in intellect, and capable of speech, most wyverns simply can't be bothered with the subtlety of diplomacy, and prefer to fight first and parley later, and even then only if faced with a foe they can neither defeat nor flee from.
Wyverns are territorial creatures. Though they occasionally hunt in small groups for large prey, they are generally solitary creatures, hunting in areas ranging in size from 100 to 200 square miles. Wyverns have been known to fight to the death among themselves for the right to hunt a territory rich with prey.
Although constantly hungry and prone to mayhem, a wyvern that can be befriended (usually through a delicate combination of flattery, intimidation, food, and treasure) becomes a powerful ally. They often serve giants and monstrous humanoids as guardians, and some lizardfolk and boggard tribes even use them as mounts, although such arrangements are quite costly in terms of food and gold, for few are the wyverns who would willingly serve as steeds for lesser creatures for long.
A wyvern is about 16 feet in length, half of which is tail. The average wyvern weighs 2,000 pounds.
A distant cousin to the true dragons, the wyvern is a huge flying lizard with a poisonous stinger in its tail.
A wyvern’s body is 15 feet long, and dark brown to gray; half that length is tail. Its wingspan is about 20 feet. A wyvern weighs about one ton.
Wyverns speak Draconic, but usually don’t bother with anything more elaborate than a loud hiss or a deep-throated growl much like that of a bull alligator.
Aka: Wyver, Lindworm, Lindorm, Wouive, Vouivre
Element : Earth
Description: two-legged dragon with two wings, a serpent’s head and the claws of an eagle.In modern images, they may have claws on the wings and a sting filled with poison on the end of its tail. The French Wyvern known as a Vouivre or Wouive, is portrayed with the head and upper body of a voluptuous woman with a ruby or garnet set between her eyes that help her to find her way through the Underworld.
Origin: from the Old French wyvere which means both viper and ‘life’. They were also very popular mountains of central europe and in Sweden
Friend/Foe : Wyvern are frequent in heraldry and are considered a sign of strength to those who bear the symbol. Wouive is the good ‘Genius’ who hovers protectively over the countryside and masters the underlying currents of the earth. She is ‘the spirit that breathes or inspires.’ The ancients represented these currents, that today we term cosmic or magnetic, by winged serpents. Neverthelessthe Wyvern appears in some western folk tales as a malign and violent predator with a fierce head, bat’s wings and a tail that sometimes has an extra scorpion-like head on its end. The life-giving aspect of the Wyvern is inverted in favour of death as she takes life. The Wouive’s ‘Breath of Life’ has been reversed, for the Wyvern is said to have poisonous and corrupt breath. These dragons symbolise envy, war, pestilence, and viciousness.
Famous: Marco Polo met and described Lindworms while crossing Central Asia. They were quick and mighty enough to take down a man on a galloping horse.
A wyvern or wivern (pronounced /ˈwaɪvərn/) is a legendary winged reptilian creature with a dragon's head, the hindquarters of a snake or lizard with two legs or none, and a barbed tail. The wyvern was often found in mediaeval heraldry[1]. The word is derived from Middle English wyvere, from Old North French wivre "viper".[2] Wyverns are mentioned in Dante's Inferno (Canto XVII) as the body for one of his creatures in hell.
Have no idea what you are talking about there, whatsoever.
Ah, I was referring to a later post where you said 'What if a farmer failed his check about chickens and didn't know what they were then?' or something like that.
The post went like this:Let me begin with stating that there is a difference between common knowledge and expertise knowledge. Common knowledge is that which "everybody knows" ("everybody" in a specific community), and expertise knowledge (a knowledge skill) being acquired by a person through experience or education.
In a village where the local farmers have sighted and had problems with wyverns for centuries, where the local authorities have often had to hire adventurers to deal with the wyverns at times when they became too much for the community itself to handle, and where the local evil-doers have a...
That's up to the GM, and his backstory.
If the town is constantly being attacked by wyverns, and has been for generations, then yeah, they would all know what a wyvern looked like (because they'd have all encountered one, or seen a dead one). You don't have to roll for things you've personally seen.
If the town is regularly attacked by wyverns, but not constantly, then yeah, again, most of them would probably be able to id a wyvern on sight, but they might mistake a blue dragon wyrmling for a wyvern (both being blue).
If the town is attacked by a wyvern every couple of years, then no, not everyone would be able to id a wyvern on sight. That is, they might know a wyvern when they see it, but they will probably mistake dragons or dinosaurs for wyverns also.
If the town is attacked by a wyvern every 10 years or so, then most of them probably would mis-identify a wyvern (as above).
If the town is attacked by a wyvern every 20 years or so, then no, most of them aren't going to know one on sight, they'll just say 'A dragon attacked!' as dragons are much...
My humble oppinion on wyverns are that they are much more common than true dragons, as true dragons have a much larger effect on the areas in which they roam, and their demeanors have them interfering in non-dragon buisness all the time, whereas wyverns are more simple monsters.
I would say it is the other way around, some who see a wyrmling in flight might very well mistake it for a wyvern. True dragons should be the pearl and wyverns the sand. Not the other way around.What about orcs then. If a town has not been attacked by orcs in the last 20 years or so, would all the people in the town be like 'Orcwhat'?.
I didn't say dragons were more common, just better known (they have better publicists!).
As to orcs, yeah, they'd be like 'Orc what?'. 20 years is one entire generation.
That's a long time in a mideival world.
But how do you think people in such times entertained themselves?
That's right, story-telling. They told the stories of generations past, or debated what happened around the country. That all makes up Common Knowledge that you should neither need a Profession skill nor Knowledge skill to know.
I quite get your point, everything requires a roll. My point is everything does not require a roll. That is the fundamental difference.
But that is exactly my point. A city boy is going to know some things a country boy will not, and vice versa. That is exactly what knowledge skills are supposed to model.I would expect a reasonable intelligent(int 12) city boy to know a lot of stuff under a DC 10 when it comes to knowledge(nature). Identifying common plants is a DC5 check. Meanwhile he will have a rank in knowledge(local) and will quite a bit about the city he grew up in(has a 5% chance of making a DC22 knowledge check).
A country boy would be the same way with the skills reversed. With a lucky check the country boy could probably tell the difference between wolf and bear tracks, the city boy couldn't.
Not really. If you are making untrained knowledge checks, then the highest DC you can make is a 10. Since you can take a 10, there is no point in rolling. Just assume that everyone knows anything with a DC of 10 for less, as long as they don't have a hefty int penalty.
But how do you think people in such times entertained themselves?
That's right, story-telling. They told the stories of generations past, or debated what happened around the country. That all makes up Common Knowledge that you should neither need a Profession skill nor Knowledge skill to know.
Which goes back to one of my earlier points. Common knowledge is not the same as accurate knowledge.
The stories told and retold around the fire at night would be just that entertaining stories, complete with dramatic flourishes, exaggerations, hyperbole, and outright fabrications. If I were an intelligent man who had traveled the world, then I would know not to trust the common lore that came from storytelling. Humans probably also tell stories about how greedy dwarves keep mountains of gold hidden in the underground caves, and how stuck up prissy elves are all master marksmen who can kill with a longbow at 3000 yards.
Now some cultures take their storytelling seriously, but usually in those cultures the stories are their only form of recorded history. In cultures that have written lore, stores are more for entertainment.
Finally, there is a big difference between hearing a story about something like orcs, and being able to recognize one on sight.
Kid - "There is a bunch of orcs comming this way, but they seems smaller than in da stories pa"
Dad - "That's because those ain't orcs, dem be goblins"
Charender said it better than me. Rather than saying 'Orcwha', they'd know the names, but not the actual truth. Sorry, I didn't get that across very well. They'd confuse them with goblins, bugbears.
Basically, let's say orcs attack Whoville 20 years ago. There'd be 20 years of stories about them.
Any non-human armed group heading to the town that they hadn't dealt with before would be orcs. For example, if the town never dealt with dwarves it'd be :
Hey Paw! Some short ugly hairy armed orcs are coming this way!
If they'd never seen goblins, it'd be :
Hey Paw! Some short ugly blue orcs is comin!
If they'd never seen bugbears, it'd be :
Some big hairy orcs is comin paw!
If they were orcs, it'd be :
Hey paw, some skinny green orcs is comin! But they ain't those fire breathin ones, at least, they ain't breathin fire right now!
So do every smart and/or educated person live where?
I figured they would also have heard tales of dwarves, bugbears, goblins, since this is a *ahem* fantasy world, not medieval europe.
So do every smart and/or educated person live where?
I figured they would also have heard tales of dwarves, bugbears, goblins, since this is a *ahem* fantasy world, not medieval europe.
It is a fantasy world that is based on medieval Europe.
Magic does a lot of things, but it doesn't instandly cure ignorance.
Since a fantasy world is so much more than just medieval Europe, wouldn't the people inhabiting it know so much more than the people who inhabited medieval Europe?
Since a fantasy world is so much more than just medieval Europe, wouldn't the people inhabiting it know so much more than the people who inhabited medieval Europe?
Sure, but it doesn't make much of a difference. It is the technology level that sets the average ignorance level.
Unless you are building a fantasy world where magic is common enough to the point where instand communication is considered normal, and people have magical picture frames in their homes(and thus don't have to rely on verbal descriptions), etc.
If you have a high enough technogy(or magic) level, then mass education becomes feasable. Barring something like that, I don't see how the world of pathfinder would be that different from earth 500-1000 years ago. Hell, 500 years on earth people were sitting around the fire telling stories about unicorns, dragons, etc. That alone sould tell you how reliable the common lore was.