No you can't. Sorry lad. You can play a wyvern but it will be a The Fugitive type game.Why not, if i am Lawful Good ??
As Mordredoffaerie has already stated on several occations Wyverns are RAWLY Neutral! And I will let MordredofFaerie elaborate further.
Here is the point where as mature adults we should realize that we have a different view on a subject and be able to accept that both views are valid. That both our points of view are perfectly reasonable based on our respective backgrounds.
Lol, and here you are arguing with someone over the internet. A mature adult would leave this thread and let it be. :p A mature adult would learn to just commit and just ignore this thread. It's not like Kamelguru or anyone else on the internet is not coming to your house and forcing you to look at this thread. At some point you should realize that there are just some people who will have a different view than you and they will be stubborn and impossible to persuade no matter how hard you try to force your views upon them. That's just the way the world works.
Congratulations everyone! *pops champagne* We have reached 1000 posts! Next stop: 2000 posts. After that: Infinity. Next Topic of the Thread: What is wrong with being an Avatar fan.
As Mordredoffaerie has already stated on several occations Wyverns are RAWLY Neutral! And I will let MordredofFaerie elaborate further.No you can't. Sorry lad. You can play a wyvern but it will be a The Fugitive type game.Why not, if i am Lawful Good ??
Most Wyverns are Neutral... as are most humans.
Their for if you can have a Lawful Good Paladin
I see no reason i can not have a Lawful Good Wyvern.
Now, if a lawful good human paladin can kill a sleeping wyvern in his sleep, because he is a clear and present damager. Then, A lawful good wyvern should be able to kill a sleeping armored human in his sleep, as he is a clear and present danger to wyvern kind.
~~Crunch~~
As Mordredoffaerie has already stated on several occations Wyverns are RAWLY Neutral! And I will let MordredofFaerie elaborate further.No you can't. Sorry lad. You can play a wyvern but it will be a The Fugitive type game.Why not, if i am Lawful Good ??Most Wyverns are Neutral... as are most humans.
Their for if you can have a Lawful Good Paladin
I see no reason i can not have a Lawful Good Wyvern.
Now, if a lawful good human paladin can kill a sleeping wyvern in his sleep, because he is a clear and present damager. Then, A lawful good wyvern should be able to kill a sleeping armored human in his sleep, as he is a clear and present danger to wyvern kind.
~~Crunch~~
The wyverns are not allowed to be evil. That is too conventional. If you were to kill a human paladin in his sleep you would loose your power of aviation.
Also, if you really want to do this Oliver, be prepared that you will have to physically connect with a tall blue cat-man... If you do not aggree right away with the process you will be subdued and forced to physically connect with him.
The wyverns are not allowed to be evil. That is too conventional. If you were to kill a human paladin in his sleep you would loose your power of aviation.
I did not say wyverns were not allowed to be evil. Sure there are evil wyverns out there, just as their are evil humans out there.
What i said was, if a lawful good human paladin, can kill a wyverns in its sleep because they see them as a clear and present danger. Then a Lawful Good wyvern should be able to kill the armored human sleeping under a tree for the same reason..... They are a clear and present danger to all wyverns.
Let the Holy wars begin
~~Crunch~~
The wyverns are not allowed to be evil. That is too conventional. If you were to kill a human paladin in his sleep you would loose your power of aviation.I did not say wyverns were not allowed to be evil. Sure there are evil wyverns out there, just as their are evil humans out there.
What i said was, if a lawful good human paladin, can kill a wyverns in its sleep because they see them as a clear and present danger. Then a Lawful Good wyvern should be able to kill the armored human sleeping under a tree for the same reason..... They are a clear and present danger to all wyverns.
Let the Holy wars begin
~~Crunch~~
If you were to play a Celestial Wyvern who was a Paladin and you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. Because you could not know what their purpose was. A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster. It said guards were ogres then no I would not let you fall. Your celestial wyvern is smart enough to know that these ogres are nefarious.
But more importantly, are you prepared to "bond" with the na'vi version of Larry King?
But more importantly, are you prepared to "bond" with the na'vi version of Larry King?
I need a case of mind bleach over here. Thanks.
But more importantly, are you prepared to "bond" with the na'vi version of Larry King?I need a case of mind bleach over here. Thanks.
Meta-gamer! You need to detect evil to know that it is an evil image that comes to mind!
I wonder if the world is going to end when we reach 2012 posts
Darn!
I just knew I should have put more ranks into that skill!
If you were to play a Celestial Wyvern who was a Paladin and you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. Because you could not know what their purpose was. A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster. It said guards were ogres then no I would not let you fall. Your celestial wyvern is smart enough to know that these ogres are nefarious.
1) Never said i was a Celestial Wyvern. = After all, a normal Wyvern is neutral, same as humans. Their for a normal wyvern can also be Good or evil same as a normal human can be good or evil.
2)If you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. = So you have a double standard... what goes for humans, does not go for wyverns. This is goes to my point of human playing human character creates a conflict of interest, in that your assumption of guilt for wyverns is raciest.
3)"A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster = Again, that is an assumption. I would make the same assumption about humans, from the view of any Demi-Human who has been slain, robbed, lied to, murdered in their sleep, or victimized by humans.
4)The Ogres = Again your making assumption about two ogres, without giving me a reason why these ogres deserve to die. These ogres could also be good, or neutral, or evil. While they may have a Chaotic Evil Culture, that does not mean that all ogres are CE.
PF phb p 220 = Ogre = ""Stories are told of ogres - horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manner of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounter know these tales to be tame compared to the truth""
Yes most Ogre should be feared as monster, but then not all ogre are. Some have turned away from this culture and try to live outside this culture. Some might even fight against this culture.
After all, humans have been know to commit horrendous crimes of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manner of hideous murder. Those elves, dwarves, halflings, who have not encountered humans know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounter know these tales to be tame compared to the truth.
While not all humans (if face most humans) do not fall into this spectrum. While not all orge (but most orge) do fall into this spectrum. This does not mean that some citys, towns, or kingdoms lean one way toward good or the other toward evil.
If you were to play a Celestial Wyvern who was a Paladin and you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. Because you could not know what their purpose was. A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster. It said guards were ogres then no I would not let you fall. Your celestial wyvern is smart enough to know that these ogres are nefarious.1) Never said i was a Celestial Wyvern. = After all, a normal Wyvern is neutral, same as humans. Their for a normal wyvern can also be Good or evil same as a normal human can be good or evil.
2)If you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. = So you have a double standard... what goes for humans, does not go for wyverns. This is goes to my point of human playing human character creates a conflict of interest, in that your assumption of guilt for wyverns is raciest.
3)"A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster = Again, that is an assumption. I would make the same assumption about humans, from the view of any Demi-Human who has been slain, robbed, lied to, murdered in their sleep, or victimized by humans.
4)The Ogres = Again your making assumption about two ogres, without giving me a reason why these ogres deserve to die. These ogres could also be good, or neutral, or evil. While they may have a Chaotic Evil Culture, that does not mean that all ogres are CE.
PF phb p 220 = Ogre = ""Stories are told of ogres - horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manner of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounter know these tales to be tame compared to the truth""
Yes most Ogre should be feared as monster, but then not all ogre are. Some have turned...
I do not agree.
Also, you are a Shrek fan.
If you were to play a Celestial Wyvern who was a Paladin and you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. Because you could not know what their purpose was. A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster. It said guards were ogres then no I would not let you fall. Your celestial wyvern is smart enough to know that these ogres are nefarious.1) Never said i was a Celestial Wyvern. = After all, a normal Wyvern is neutral, same as humans. Their for a normal wyvern can also be Good or evil same as a normal human can be good or evil.
2)If you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. = So you have a double standard... what goes for humans, does not go for wyverns. This is goes to my point of human playing human character creates a conflict of interest, in that your assumption of guilt for wyverns is raciest.
3)"A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster = Again, that is an assumption. I would make the same assumption about humans, from the view of any Demi-Human who has been slain, robbed, lied to, murdered in their sleep, or victimized by humans.
4)The Ogres = Again your making assumption about two ogres, without giving me a reason why these ogres deserve to die. These ogres could also be good, or neutral, or evil. While they may have a Chaotic Evil Culture, that does not mean that all ogres are CE.
PF phb p 220 = Ogre = ""Stories are told of ogres - horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manner of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounter know these tales to be tame compared to the truth""
Yes most Ogre should be feared as monster, but then not all ogre are. Some have turned...
~~crunch~~
...
If you were to play a Celestial Wyvern who was a Paladin and you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. Because you could not know what their purpose was. A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster. It said guards were ogres then no I would not let you fall. Your celestial wyvern is smart enough to know that these ogres are nefarious.1) Never said i was a Celestial Wyvern. = After all, a normal Wyvern is neutral, same as humans. Their for a normal wyvern can also be Good or evil same as a normal human can be good or evil.
2)If you killed a the two human guards sleeping right next to the entrance to the tomb that you had to enter, then yes I would let you fall. = So you have a double standard... what goes for humans, does not go for wyverns. This is goes to my point of human playing human character creates a conflict of interest, in that your assumption of guilt for wyverns is raciest.
3)"A regular wyvern's only purpose is to be a monster = Again, that is an assumption. I would make the same assumption about humans, from the view of any Demi-Human who has been slain, robbed, lied to, murdered in their sleep, or victimized by humans.
4)The Ogres = Again your making assumption about two ogres, without giving me a reason why these ogres deserve to die. These ogres could also be good, or neutral, or evil. While they may have a Chaotic Evil Culture, that does not mean that all ogres are CE.
PF phb p 220 = Ogre = ""Stories are told of ogres - horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manner of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounter know these tales to be tame compared to the truth""
Yes most Ogre should be feared as monster, but then not all ogre
I win.
Also, you are a Shrek fan.
no not really... Disney has really turned me off. To Formulated.
Draco = from Dragonheart = Yes fan of Good Dragons.
Superman = From Superman = Yes fan of Good Aliens.
Transformers = From Transformers = Yes fan of Good Robots.
Nature = Princess Mononoke = Yes fan of Nature.. good/neutral/evil.
Also, you are a Shrek fan.no not really... Disney has really turned me off. To Formulated.
Draco = from Dragonheart = Yes fan of Good Dragons.
Superman = From Superman = Yes fan of Good Aliens.
Transformers = From Transformers = Yes fan of Good Robots.
Nature = Princess Mononoke = Yes fan of Nature.. good/neutral/evil.
I don't know any of those, although Mononoke is a funny name. Sounds like Okidoke.
Very old Anime.... but very good movie.
Big fan of eastern fantasy?
Big fan of eastern fantasy?
Before Hulu... never could get my hands on it, so no.
After Hulu... all i watch also is anime for past 3 months
just got done watching Heroic: Age, now watching Mushi-shi.
Personally I am not really into it, although I acknowledge good things come out of it, such as Afro Samurai. That was cool.
I prefer western fantasy, though I am not a big fan of western fantasy cartoons and movie adaptations. There are a few exceptions, but usually I find it all kinda crappish.
I have seen Vampire Hunter D, Ninja Scroll (if that's what is it called the old one) and Ghost in a Shell, but nah, overall eastern fantasy is not the type of fantasy I dig.
Big fan of eastern fantasy?Before Hulu... never could get my hands on it, so no.
After Hulu... all i watch also is anime for past 3 months
You'll probably find that those who believe killing sleeping wyverns to be dishonorable are probably fans of eastern stories, while those who think that it's perfectly acceptable and not at all dishonorable are fans of western fantasy.
In western fantasy, humans are heroes, and monsters are there to be destroyed without a second thought.
In eastern fantasy, humans are fallable, and monsters are good or evil and usually are to be either courted for information or quested against depending on whether they are good or evil.
In western fantasy, a giant red-eyed boar with flames snorting from his nose and steel hooves is a horrible monster to be destroyed.
In eastern fantasy, it's a nature spirit who's neither good nor evil, but may have to be (regretfully) killed in the name of a greater good. Or, it may be a creature you have to go to and appease to get the seed of a rare plant that can be used to revive the cursed princess from her lichdom. It all depends.
Basically, western fantasy tends toward black/white, while eatern tends toward more complex themes.
It depends on which type of world you are in. If the GM told the players his world is grey/complex morality, then the Paladin did at best a dishonorable act, and probably should lose his powers for a day or two as a warning. If the GM is doing a western black/white world, then the Paladin should have still had an issue with slaughtering sleeping sentient enemies (although killing them was not evil, just the method was not honorable).
Basically, an assassin would slit a wyvern's throat in passing without a thought. A paladin should never think that using the methods of an assassin without some serious soul searching, no matter what type of game the GM is running. So a little godly nudge in a dream saying 'Hey, quit acting like an assassin you twit' was probably all that was needed in a black/white western style campaign.
Big fan of eastern fantasy?Before Hulu... never could get my hands on it, so no.
After Hulu... all i watch also is anime for past 3 months
You'll probably find that those who believe killing sleeping wyverns to be dishonorable are probably fans of eastern stories, while those who think that it's perfectly acceptable and not at all dishonorable are fans of western fantasy.
In western fantasy, humans are heroes, and monsters are there to be destroyed without a second thought.
In eastern fantasy, humans are fallable, and monsters are good or evil and usually are to be either courted for information or quested against depending on whether they are good or evil.
This was basically what I was trying to get to.
true, that. good thing we are all the same here, still sticking around.
I never claimed to be a 'mature adult' xp Just saying that you shouldn't either when you're sticking around rattling off your views as truth like this.
except there's that saying of "Der klügere gibt nach", roughly translated as "The wiser/smarter person stops discussing", which i always saw as flawed, since then whatever the other person wants, stands uncontested.
Ah... Well you see if you let the other person believe what they believe, then it doesn't affect you. What someone else thinks doesn't affect your world at all (unless you're a telepath). It's only when someone's actions affect you that you should really have any sort of concern. If you're looking for a unified acceptance of your values, the internet is the last place to look :p
And don't get me wrong, I like complexity and a world that is not overly Black and White, I just prefer a fantasy world of grim, gritty monsters over a world of colorful, cuddle pets.
This was basically what I was trying to get to.
Yep, just took me awhile to type it up, and you two kept going with one liners. :) But after skimming the thread, that seems to me to be where things are coming down. Personally, I prefer the complex type of world.
And don't get me wrong, I like complexity and a world that is not overly Black and White, I just prefer a fantasy world of grim, gritty monsters over a world of colorful, cuddle pets.
Me neither (the furry pets thing).
Guys, grow up in United States... and wester culture. But after you see the mean evil dragon killed 1000 times, ya kind of not help but feel sorry for them :)
I prefer Western Culture... but... i do not let wester culture rule my heart, mind, or soul.
Truth is Truth, regardless of were it comes from.... movie Enemy Mind.
Ooo Princess Mononoke! I love that movie. However, Miyazake's films are the last thing you want to tie alignment to. Good is always good, and evil is always evil, aka good vs evil is a western ideal and just doesn't fit right into the morally ambiguous nature vs technology
Ooo Princess Mononoke! I love that movie. However, Miyazake's films are the last thing you want to tie alignment to. Good is always good, and evil is always evil, aka good vs evil is a western ideal and just doesn't fit right into the morally ambiguous nature vs technology
yes very sad ending... :(
I grew up in a part of the world where our ancient history is based on Northern Mythology (in my oppinion western fantasy has much deeper roots in Northern Mythology than in the United States), with all the complexity that comes with that, but what I dig in fantasy is painted by much, much more than the mythological roots of my own country.
Meta-gamer! You need to detect evil to know that it is an evil image that comes to mind!But more importantly, are you prepared to "bond" with the na'vi version of Larry King?I need a case of mind bleach over here. Thanks.
I don't need Detect Evil to know that I don't want that image in my head.
I don't need Detect Evil to know that I don't want that image in my head.Meta-gamer! You need to detect evil to know that it is an evil image that comes to mind!But more importantly, are you prepared to "bond" with the na'vi version of Larry King?I need a case of mind bleach over here. Thanks.
It is there now, none-the-less. Say hello to na'vi Larry from me.
We need more evil acts questions in this thread
Again, I don't think we have the same logic or the same taste in game flavoring, you and I.
Wyverns are natural to a fantasy world just as wolves were natural to medieval times in the real world.
Not like some mythical beings that were told about around the campfire but didn't exist, because in the game world these beings exist. They are there. You see them flying around. Of course you know what they are and what they do. Heck, you can even buy (in-game) Ye Olde Bestiary to read about it.Being that any accurate knowledge about Wyverns requires a DC 16 Knowledge(Arcana) check and you cannot make that check untrained, I am afraid I have to disagree and say that knowing about Wyverns is not common place. To know even 1 piece of information about wyverns, you would have to have ranks in knowledge(arcana) and make a DC 16 knowledge check. That alone eliminates a significant portion of the general population. Knowing a significant amount of accurate information(like 3 pieces of useful information) would be a DC 26. Not exactly a check the every commoner can make untrained.Open question to those who state that PCs cannot know even general rumours about a creature, unless the gathering of that info has been personally overseen by the GM, in session, or was the result of a needlessly high Knowledge check*;
A cow is a common CR1 creature , that makes it a DC6 knowledge check. Knowledge checks under DC10 can be made untrained. With 3 d20 the highest result is going to be a 15 on average, safe to assume someone is going to make it.
Anyhow, my work here is done, we reach 1000...
Again, I don't think we have the same logic or the same taste in game flavoring, you and I.
Wyverns are natural to a fantasy world just as wolves were natural to medieval times in the real world.
Not like some mythical beings that were told about around the campfire but didn't exist, because in the game world these beings exist. They are there. You see them flying around. Of course you know what they are and what they do. Heck, you can even buy (in-game) Ye Olde Bestiary to read about it.Being that any accurate knowledge about Wyverns requires a DC 16 Knowledge(Arcana) check and you cannot make that check untrained, I am afraid I have to disagree and say that knowing about Wyverns is not common place. To know even 1 piece of information about wyverns, you would have to have ranks in knowledge(arcana) and make a DC 16 knowledge check. That alone eliminates a significant portion of the general population. Knowing a significant amount of accurate information(like 3 pieces of useful information) would be a DC 26. Not exactly a check the every commoner can make untrained.Open question to those who state that PCs cannot know even general rumours about a creature, unless the gathering of that info has been personally overseen by the GM, in session, or was the result of a needlessly high Knowledge check*;
A cow is a common CR1 creature , that makes it a DC6 knowledge check. Knowledge checks under DC10 can be made untrained. With 3 d20 the highest result is going to be a 15 on average, safe to assume someone is going to make it.
Anyhow, my work here is done, we reach 1000...
So a Player Character from a rural community who fails that check has no clue what a cow is?
Lol.