Summon eidolon question

[Kefler]

when you use the second level summoner spell " summon eidolon" from the APG , would your eidolon benifit from the augment summoning feat?

[Carbon D. Metric]

Kefler wrote:

when you use the second level summoner spell " summon eidolon" from the APG , would your eidolon benifit from the augment summoning feat?

I don't believe so, but the main reason to use this spell is so that you can have your eidolon, your SLA Summoned Monster (Whatever number), and an additional Summon Monster (Whatever number). It also allows you to summon it really fast in case you get ambushed with him still on his homeplane without having to waste a while minute to set up the usual ritual.

[cfalcon]

I'm almost positive that it would. Augment Summoning works on "summon spells", with the summon in italics to indicate either spells with summon in their names, or spells that start with summon (spell names are normally italicized). Perhaps it instead means spells that summon things, or summoning spells in general- but the distinction is moot. Summon Eidolon meets all of these qualifications.

I still don't feel it's a great feat for a Summoner, because you have to push through the suboptimal Conjuration Focus to get to it- but if you do, it should work. Just remember that dismissing your Eidolon is also a standard action, and when summoned via the spell it can be warded off by Protection From Evil, and a successful dispel magic leaves you a mostly boring NPC class in chain shirt :P

[james maissen]

Kefler wrote:

when you use the second level summoner spell " summon eidolon" from the APG , would your eidolon benifit from the augment summoning feat?

Why wouldn't it?

[Carbon D. Metric]

james maissen wrote:

Kefler wrote:

when you use the second level summoner spell " summon eidolon" from the APG , would your eidolon benifit from the augment summoning feat?

Why wouldn't it?

Because the of the following phrasing.

Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.

Treating it as per normal rules with those specific exceptions as listed on the spell would mean that the eidolon is still not eligible for the benefits from Augment Summoning feat.

The eidolon is just not meant to ever benefit in such a way, it would just be way, WAY too powerful. It is like a fighter taking a single feat, and suddenly he permanently gets +2 to hit and damage and +2 HP per level.

[cfalcon]

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

Treating it as per normal rules with those specific exceptions as listed on the spell would mean that the eidolon is still not eligible for the benefits from Augment Summoning feat.

Uh.... The Eidolon is perfectly eligible normally for the benefits of the feat... the only reason it doesn't apply is that you didn't get it there with a summon spell. Now, you did. So it gets the benefit. Nothing about the Eidolon text excludes it from Augment Summoning. It's just that you normally got it there with a ritual which is not a summon spell.

Quote:

The eidolon is just not meant to ever benefit in such a way, it would just be way, WAY too powerful. It is like a fighter taking a single feat, and suddenly he permanently gets +2 to hit and damage and +2 HP per level.

Game balance aside, the rules are clear. Game balance in consideration, a +2 to hit, damage, and bonus to Con with some rather serious tradeoffs (like the fact that the Eidolon doesn't even exist until you cast it, can't make perception checks while you are doing your thing, and likely loses a whole round of combat, which all by itself almost assuredly makes it useless), you don't really have an issue. How is it absurd if you risk combat starting without your Eidolon? If you waste a round casting your Eidolon when otherwise he would be pouncing something, what are the odds that +2/+2 is really going to make up for missing that whole turn? To say nothing of the fact that YOU also lose the round. In a seven round combat, your Eidolon gets 6 actions, and you get 6, plus casting your Eidolon. Which is an interruptable full round action. Or, you get 7, and he gets 7, and no one can take him away by shooting you with a dart during that long full round cast. No way a +10% chance to connect and a +2 to damage will add up to that missing round. No way that you couldn't have done something better with that round- like say, cast bull's strength on your Eidolon, as a baseline. There's +4 Strength, and you cast it with a standard action. So really you are saying that all these penalties somehow add up to the "way, WAY" overpoweredness of +4 Con additionally. Sure thing.

Lotta summoner hate on these boards though, so, whatevs. I had a DM at the convention I was just at tell me that my Eidolon has to talk like a moronic thug because his Int is 7, and then gripe because he "keeps running into summoners who try to get away with stuff- the last one tried to tell me he had telepathy to it". So of course, I had to show him that in the book. He was just insulted that it was there. Then he told me that the summoner is "like a ripoff of a druid". Because a full caster with prepared divine spells and an animal, who can shapechange, is just like a partial caster with spontaneous arcane spells and a link to a customizable interdimensional being/aspect thing. Presumably because both start with a companion on the table.

[udalrich]

pfsrd wrote:

Summon Eidolon

School conjuration (summoning)

It is a summoning spell, so by the RAW, the Eidolon should benefit from Augment Summoning.

Balance wise, I don't think it's that unbalanced.
You have to spend a full round to cast it (with the increased chance of disruption). If the Eidolon was already with the summoner, the summoner could cast Bull Strength and the Eidolon could drink a potion of Bear's Endurance to have the same effect.

On the down side, it costs the summoner two feats (which are admittedly quite good feats for her) and a spell known. The spell known is a sizable cost. The Eidolon also has several possibly important restrictions while summoned by this spell.

In fact, those restrictions are a lot like the ones imposed by a Summon Monster spell, which is another bit of evidence suggesting that Augment Summoning should apply.

[james maissen]

udalrich wrote:

On the down side, it costs the summoner two feats (which are admittedly quite good feats for her) and a spell known.

A side comment, why is augment summoning a good feat for a summoner?

With the new restrictions their summon ability is unlikely to be used except when the eidolon is been KO'd, so hopefully it doesn't come up often.

After that a Summoner is less likely to take summon spells than the typical Sorcerer, so again it doesn't seem like a good investment for two feats.

Mind you there are a good number of offensive conjuration spells on the Summoner list, so there is some use for the spell focus feat.

But all in all it's not the essential pair of feats it is for summoners (small 's').

-James

[Maezer]

james maissen wrote:

A side comment, why is augment summoning a good feat for a summoner?

...

But all in all it's not the essential pair of feats it is for summoners (small 's').

This is semantics. They are good feats. They now fall short of absolute essential status (ala power attack for melee fighters) but are still good feats.

With my summoner I regularly dismiss my eidolon (to save it from being sent back due to damage or because its ill suited for the task at hand) and then come back with SMx. SMx is incredibly versatile, can cast a variety of useful spells, can destroy swarms, can occupy strategic space, etc.

Not to mention you can use SMx then summon your eidolon, and have a considerable overlap of duration if you have time to prepare.

Moreover, I have a hard time coming up with a list of 10 feats for a summoner I consider so much better for the summon that SF: Conjuration/Augment summoning aren't considered good options.

[cfalcon]

Quote:

This is semantics. They are good feats.

They are? Conjuration Focus is a good feat for a summoner?

Conjuration Focus affects the following spells:

Grease, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Aqueous Orb, Spiked Pit, Acid Pit, Lesser Planar Binding, Creeping Doom, Hungry Pit, Planar Binding, Incendiary Cloud, and Greater Planar Binding. That's twelve spells total, three of which are planar binding and three of which are Pits you open in the ground.

Now, you can very likely choose to lay down a decent number of Grease, *Pit spells, and Glitterdust, and these have saves- but remember, a summoner is not a conjurer.

Augment Summoning is only really good if the summoner actually gets the summon monster spells- which you can definitely make a case for. I can make a MUCH stronger argument for Augment Summoning than I can for Conjuration Focus, whereas a Conjurer would receive decent benefit from both.

[Legion42]

I must say this is an interesting post thread, but the one thing I am noticing is that everyone is bashing the summon Eidolon spell.

I as a player and as a DM have had too many instances of being woken up my one of my watch mates while SLEEPING. Usually when this happens a player has 1-3 rnds, i.e. 18 secs, to decide what to do. That is no where near enough time to preform the ritual for summoning an Eidolon, which is unsummoned/dismissed when the summoner sleeps.

Having a spell that gets me my Eidolon even for a limited time would be a god send for the encounter. how about the situation where you get jumped in an alley or a place your character felt safe in.

Having your Eidolon just walking around town hanging out with you is like having a Druid's 12 point buck just hanging out inside the inn with you. Not going to happen if you are role playing rather than roll playing. And yes you can have the Eidolon hang out where ever you stashed the animal companions, horse and war dogs but then you risk hitting that 100ft barrier.

[mdt]

Legion42 wrote:

I must say this is an interesting post thread, but the one thing I am noticing is that everyone is bashing the summon Eidolon spell.

I as a player and as a DM have had too many instances of being woken up my one of my watch mates while SLEEPING. Usually when this happens a player has 1-3 rnds, i.e. 18 secs, to decide what to do. That is no where near enough time to preform the ritual for summoning an Eidolon, which is unsummoned/dismissed when the summoner sleeps.

Having a spell that gets me my Eidolon even for a limited time would be a god send for the encounter. how about the situation where you get jumped in an alley or a place your character felt safe in.

Having your Eidolon just walking around town hanging out with you is like having a Druid's 12 point buck just hanging out inside the inn with you. Not going to happen if you are role playing rather than roll playing. And yes you can have the Eidolon hang out where ever you stashed the animal companions, horse and war dogs but then you risk hitting that 100ft barrier.

Part of that is that most people consider the 'Goes away when asleep' rule to be so much BS that they house rule it out immediately. So the waking up and not having the eidelon doesn't really come into it.

The only time the spell is really useful is, as you pointed out, if you need to summon it in town at a moments notice. The real thing is, most people don't consider that particular issue to be so pressing that it's worth giving up a spell known for it.

[Gjorbjond]

mdt wrote:

The only time the spell is really useful is, as you pointed out, if you need to summon it in town at a moments notice. The real thing is, most people don't consider that particular issue to be so pressing that it's worth giving up a spell known for it.

It can also be somewhat useful if the eidolon gets killed. Sometimes it's easier just to let it die and use your SLA Summon Monster for the rest of the battle rather than trying to get it back into the fight. Summon Eidolon will bring it back at 1/2 HP without you needing to wait until the next day.

[mdt]

Gjorbjond wrote:

mdt wrote:

The only time the spell is really useful is, as you pointed out, if you need to summon it in town at a moments notice. The real thing is, most people don't consider that particular issue to be so pressing that it's worth giving up a spell known for it.

It can also be somewhat useful if the eidolon gets killed. Sometimes it's easier just to let it die and use your SLA Summon Monster for the rest of the battle rather than trying to get it back into the fight. Summon Eidolon will bring it back at 1/2 HP without you needing to wait until the next day.

True enough, still not sure if it's worth losing a spell though. Maybe a few scrolls or a wand.

[Joseph Davis]

Considering there aren't too many feats that are super useful for summoners, you could always take Expanded Arcana to get the spell. I personally like the "summon eidolon" spell, and unless there's a particular reason, I'm under the opinion when I play a summoner, I'm going to not have my eidolon out constantly, instead I'm going to summon it with the spell more often if possible. Considering it can benefit from not only Augment Summoning, but from Metamagic feats as well. I think it's actually a good thing for summoner.

[Legion42]

it seems kinda cheap, but if the Eidolon has fast healing and you aren't expecting any more encounters for the day summoning it via the spell and letting it heal until the spell ends would work for cheap healing. Rinse and repeat until full HP. of course that is assuming it was killed.

[Joseph Davis]

Legion42 wrote:

it seems kinda cheap, but if the Eidolon has fast healing and you aren't expecting any more encounters for the day summoning it via the spell and letting it heal until the spell ends would work for cheap healing. Rinse and repeat until full HP. of course that is assuming it was killed.

That's not cheap, that's smart. Since the Summoner relies almost entirely on Eidolon/SM to do damage in combat, any trick the summoner can do to increase efficiency is worth it.

[Gjorbjond]

If your eidolon is killed, you can't summon it with the ritual until the next day and it comes back with 1/2 HP.

If you summon it with Summon Eidolon, it comes back with 1/2 HP and you don't have to wait.

If it was killed, then summoned with the spell, and returned when the spell expired while it still had HP, would it now be summonable via the ritual again since the last time it returned home was not due to death?

It seems to me that the only reason the ritual doesn't work is because the eidolon was dead when it was returned home. If it's not dead when the Summon Eidolon spell expires, I would think that the ritual would be able to work again.

[james maissen]

Gjorbjond wrote:

If your eidolon is killed, you can't summon it with the ritual until the next day and it comes back with 1/2 HP.

If you summon it with Summon Eidolon, it comes back with 1/2 HP and you don't have to wait.

If it was killed, then summoned with the spell, and returned when the spell expired while it still had HP, would it now be summonable via the ritual again since the last time it returned home was not due to death?

It seems to me that the only reason the ritual doesn't work is because the eidolon was dead when it was returned home. If it's not dead when the Summon Eidolon spell expires, I would think that the ritual would be able to work again.

The problem with this is that you are using logic and reasoning.

The summoner class rules are based upon fiat. They have so many exceptions that even conclusions are hard to reach with them.

-James

[Legion42]

The ritual and 24 hr wait time is similar to the companion time limits and the old "Named Outsider" delays for re-summoning. It stops the summoner from getting the extra benefits that the ritual provides, like the overcome protection abilities and the summon time limits. The Death delay is not overcome by the spell as it is the ritual and the Eidolons ability to respond to it that are affected by the death. The Eidolon still died from destruction in the last 24 hrs so it cannot re-form at the strength level that the ritual would require. The spell sacrifices corporeal time and abilities in favor of just having the Eidolon present on the Plane.

[x93edwards]

Gjorbjond wrote:

It can also be somewhat useful if the eidolon gets killed. Sometimes it's easier just to let it die and use your SLA Summon Monster for the rest of the battle rather than trying to get it back into the fight. Summon Eidolon will bring it back at 1/2 HP without you needing to wait until the next day.

I also read Summon Eidolon to mean it will bring a slain eidolon back with 1/2 hit points. I'm curious if anyone (other than a summoner playing in my campaign) thinks that it comes back with full hit points?