Not sure what you are trying to say. Good hope is a great stacker with inspire courage. +2 to all saves instead of just against fear, and the +2 to hit and damage stack with inspire courage as they are different types of bonuses. For the most played levels (5~10) this is doubling the bard's bonuses granted for his party (+2 for inspire courage + 2 for good hope = +4) and granting a fresh bonus to all saving throws that in all likelihood will stack with anything else the party has.Sorry, I shoulda been clearer. Stacking morale bonuses on top of inspire courage is, indeed, great, but the trait that lets morale bonuses persist for 1d4 rounds isn't all that great because inspire courage gives competence rather than morale bonuses to your attacks and damage. So even with said trait, you can't weave performance types to keep more than one going (at least, not using inspire courage as one of them).
Sorry if I miss something, but what trait are you refering to?
Bard DPR isn't bad with inspire courage running, especially when you start counting all those hits from other party members that would have been misses without it.Yeah, I know it pays to help others buuutt.. Lets face it points next to your name look alot better than assists..
The best ways I'm seeing to get extra attacks is Gtr Trip and Spellbreaker...
I don't know about this. I think a well done assist character can be instrumental in the success of a party, and pretty interesting to play. At first level it is pretty easy for a bard to increase another party members to hit chance by 25% before buff spells. I think such a bard, working along side a two-handed fighter, can be fairly happy with there contribution.
Abraham everything that you said is exactly the reason why I love bards so much. But I still have major issues with how Bladethirst was worked into the Arcane Duelist.
I think Bladethirst was a fantastic idea, it's a performance that I'd love to use, and it adds flavor that really sets the Arcane Duelist apart from the normal Bard. But unless you are fighting creatures that are incorporeal or vulnerable to electricity, then Inspire Courage is going to completely outclass Bladethirst. So to be most effective, I am stuck Inspiring Courage 95% of the time just like a normal bard.
This just irks me the wrong way.
+1
Me, I love Inspire Courage so I would have loved if Bladethirst worked similar to the Paladin version but less times per day.One of the big disappointments with the APG was the lack of bard stuff. We got new bard spells, new bard archetypes and one bardic feat that suck unless you multiclass. Let's face it after level 7 or 8 you don't more rounds per day.
I would have preferred to play something between the core bard and the Arcane Duelist, but Arcane Duelist is as close I get playing the bard I want so me I'm grateful they kept Inspire Courage.
I'm not a big fan of Bladethirst. The bonus doesn't count for bypass DR and you can't have it going at the same time as Inspire Courage. As for DR, Bards now have the spell Versatile Weapon so you be fine most of the time.
One of the big problem with the bard is the lack of greater performance and greater buff spells at higher levels.
At 7:th level the best party buff in the game is Haste + Good hope + Inspire Courage.
At level 14 it's still the best buff in the game. So a 14 level bard, twice as high level as the level 7 bard will use the same buff. Something is wrong. Guess what, at level 17 it's still the best buff in the game.
Also I really hate the idea of a "charisma class" that don't really need charisma, not like the Paladin anyway.
Me I would have loved some more options if you want to play a Core Bard or a tone downed version of the Arcane Duelist that kept some more bardic stuff - like bardic knowledge.
I'm still upset that Expanded Arcana suck so bad and that the bard gets punished again for its slow spell progression.
Still, spells like Invigorate, Gallant Inspiration, Honeyed Tongue, and Versatile Weapon made me happy. Arcane Duelist + some of the new spells makes the class really powerful, but at the expense of playing "a real bard"
I meant a Core bard.
I still like the Arcane Duelist I just would have liked some more options for the core bard...or a toned down Arcane Duelist, with bardic knowledge ;-). But I'm going to playing a Arcane Duelist in our next campaign.
I am wanting him to be excellent party buffer (check), condition relief (check- sort of), tertiary healer (check) but mostly I want him to rock Melee without needing a BSF to babysit him! Alot of his do all abilities suggest a great inspirational party leader and party leaders should be in the thick of it, taking it to the BBEG!
The spellist is underhelming me a bit. Great buffs but his offensive spells have saves to low to really be worth it.
Here's whant I'm thinking: (be aware took human extra spells favored class ability)
Just some advice. The Bard is a team player, not a PVP class and D&D is not about PVP.
To me the inquisitor and some of the other new classes feels a bit like WoW. I like WoW but not in this game.But hey, let's talk about the bard now.
Edit: I pretty much agree with Abraham spalding, Zurai, 0gre, DeathQuaker and the others that the bard is a better team player. And I think the bard is actually superior to the inquisitor in most ways. I'm not even sure the "inquisitor might mop up the battlefield in a PvP with the bard". How is the inquisitor going to hit the bard if the bard has Mirror Image, blur etc. cast on him.
If you just want to be a good PVP player you don't need more than 14 char. If you use 25 PB you should be able to start with 20 str.
Don't bother picking spells like sleep or hold person mass.
You should pick Mirror Image and Improved Invisibility. Improved Invisibility is great if you have a rogue in the party. Greater Heroism isn't bad if you want to boost your DPR and Grease is a great versatility spell. If see someone comes charging cast grease. Or Cast grease on the ogre's weapon.
As for feats I'm not sure why you want Improved Trip. The Bard is still a 3/4 BAB class and you can't trip with a longsword.
You are forgetting one of the best feats in the game if you are a Arcane Duelist. You get Disruptive and Spellbreaker for free so you should pick Step Up. Need I say more? Good VS. most archers too.
If you want DPR Dazzling Display and Shatter Defences are bad. Unlike Dirge of Doom, Dazzling Display isn't an autosuccess. So you waste a whole round to get a bonus to hit and you can actually fail intimidate check or meet creatures immune to mind affecting abilities and/or fear. You could have used that round to buff you, your party and debuff the enemy, instead you rolled a crappy intimidate check or the enemy turned out to be immune against fear.
My advice? Get Glove of Storing and/or Quick draw then get yourself one or two rods of quicken spell.
Let me quote Treantmonk quoting me: " When you get a Rod of Quicken Metamagic, Lesser, you can actually use your move action to perform the Dirge of Doom, then use your Swift for a quickened spell (like Slow) and cast regularly (perhaps Glitterdust?) - all with -2 to save DC's, all for one round of Bardic Perform. (Thanks to Zark for tactical tip)"
IF you want to check out his guide. here is the link I don't agree with everything in the guide but it got some good stuff.
You could of course just as well cast two buff spells and start inspire courage the first round. Haste and Good Hope or Mirror Image and Haste or Mirror Image and Good Hope.
At Level 13 You can start Dirge of Doom as a move action, cast spell that requires a save, the switch to inspire courage to buff your friends. If you plan ahead you can do even worse stuff. My point is you are wasting feats and a full round to do something that isn't guaranteed to be a success and something that some creatures are immune to . Hey there are even spells that can protect you from fear effects, spells like Greater Heroism.
At higher levels you can afford a Rod of Quicken Metamagic, so you could start casting Improved Invisibility and Improved Invisibility gives you the bonus to hit without wasting two feats and a full round. and you can still cast one more spell and activate bardic performance (if it isn't already active).
Casting spells and holding a rod means you have to use a buckler or no shield at al. You could get yourself a wand of Shield and boost your UMD.
You should check with you DM/GM if he/she let you:
1) use quick draw on metamagic rods
2) store and retrieve your rod from you glove of storing the same round. The rules say storing or retrieving the items from a glove of storing is a free action, but some DM/GM rule you can only perform one such free action per turn.
One last thing. Any spell the inquisitor can cast the bard can cast too using UMD. If you want to cast a lot of spells skill focus UMD might not be wrong.
Some has said you should go the archer way, don't. The Arcane Duelist is clearly designed to be a melee built and I think, specially with Step Up, you will have more fun with a melee built.
Sorry if I miss something, but what trait are you refering to?
The one referenced earlier, that lets you still get the effect of a morale bonus for 1d4 rounds after it ends. I forget what it's called, but it's from Second Darkness I think.
Sorry if I miss something, but what trait are you refering to?The one referenced earlier, that lets you still get the effect of a morale bonus for 1d4 rounds after it ends. I forget what it's called, but it's from Second Darkness I think.
Thanks.
Zark,
I really like the stepup, follow up and step up and strike feats. But using it is an immediate action, so no arcane strike next round. I never thought of the dirge of doom, cast, swift inspire trick.
Dazzling dispalt was onlly taken as a preaching for shatter defences.
Bed time now.....
arcane strike one round vs one bonus attack at your highest BAB? And with spellbreaker you get to hit the caster if they fail their checks to cast spells defensively. Also good if someone step back to drink a potion or use range weapons. From a DPR point using step up is better than losing arcane strike for one round.
Think about it. :-)
good point Zark.
Combat patrol looks nice but dont you essentialy give up all regular attacks for all's IF they provoke. If nobody casts and only 5ft steps you potentially waste a round (but i may be wrong)
I agree with you Combat patrol isn't that great. I would rather use a potion or a wand with enlarge person.
Step up doesn't have the same problem. If the foe doesn't cast a spell (or fire a range weapon or drink a potion) you neutralized their action for that round and next round it's your turn :-)
Step up gives you options and as I said before you can't trip using a longsword so you can save two feats.
Edit: Or why not pick Step Up and Strike?
When using the Step Up or Following Step feats
to follow an adjacent foe, you may also make a single melee
attack against that foe at your highest base attack bonus.
This attack counts as one of your attacks of opportunity
for the round. Using this feat does not count toward the
number of actions you can usually take each round.
My bold.
:-)
Edit2:
Also stay away from Lingering Performance and Combat Expertise
Lingering Performance : At higher levels (6, 7 or 8) you won't need the extra rounds and at lower levels you need a standard action to restart you Bardic performance and the lingering effect sucks since you are prohibited from having two bardic performances active at the same time.
Combat Expertise: If you going to use this you won't be able to deal any damage. You be better of casting mirror image, taking the damage or fighting defensively.
Sorry but could you (or anyone else) explain "auto intimidates foe hit with PA"? Does PA auto intimidates foe?
Edit2:
Also stay away from Lingering Performance and Combat Expertise
Lingering Performance : At higher levels (6, 7 or 8) you won't need the extra rounds and at lower levels you need a standard action to restart you Bardic performance and the lingering effect sucks since you are prohibited from having two bardic performances active at the same time.
Combat Expertise: If you going to use this you won't be able to deal any damage. You be better of casting mirror image, taking the damage or fighting defensively.
That's arguable. Lingering could still be useful if you tend to have a lot of encounters every day, and combat expertise can be good either as a gateway to the maneuver feats or as extra defense with the Cheliax trait (Threatening Defender I think) that reduces the penalty by 1. Better than fighting defensively, at any rate.
Conrugan Smash feat: Any foe you strike successfully with Power Attack is subject to an intimidate check by you as a free action.
Great with shatter defences...
You've convinced me on step up and strike. Will post new feat list later.
Conrugan Smash, is that a Pathfinder feat? If not where can I find it?
Conrugan Smash, is that a Pathfinder feat? If not where can I find it?Conrugan Smash feat: Any foe you strike successfully with Power Attack is subject to an intimidate check by you as a free action.
Great with shatter defences...
You've convinced me on step up and strike. Will post new feat list later.
It's from the Cheliax book.
That's arguable. Lingering could still be useful if you tend to have a lot of encounters every day,Edit2:
Also stay away from Lingering Performance and Combat Expertise
Lingering Performance : At higher levels (6, 7 or 8) you won't need the extra rounds and at lower levels you need a standard action to restart you Bardic performance and the lingering effect sucks since you are prohibited from having two bardic performances active at the same time.
Combat Expertise: If you going to use this you won't be able to deal any damage. You be better of casting mirror image, taking the damage or fighting defensively.
I think you are wrong. When I played the bard she never, and I mean never, ran out vof rounds per day after level 7.
and combat expertise can be good either as a gateway to the maneuver feats or as extra defense with the Cheliax trait (Threatening Defender I think) that reduces the penalty by 1. Better than fighting defensively, at any rate.
Well he isn't picking maneuver feats and with a 3/4 BAB the ac bonus is no big deal. With 3 ranks in acrobatics he gets +3 to ac when fighting defensively without wasting a feat. At higher levels he has spells to help him out, mirror Image, blur or dimmension door if he has to escape. I don't know the Cheliax trait, is it core (corebook or APG)?
It's from the Cheliax book.Conrugan Smash, is that a Pathfinder feat? If not where can I find it?Conrugan Smash feat: Any foe you strike successfully with Power Attack is subject to an intimidate check by you as a free action.
Great with shatter defences...
You've convinced me on step up and strike. Will post new feat list later.
Thanks :-)
Edit: Found the book. Thanks!
I think you are wrong. When I played the bard she never, and I mean never, ran out vof rounds per day after level 7.
Well, like I said, it depends on how many combats per day you have and how long they last, on average. At 7 you'd have 16 + Cha mod rounds per day, so provided you have 4 encounters that last 4 rounds or less each, you're good (and have some left over for out of combat stuff if necessary), but some groups take longer to finish encounters, and some GMs like to throw a ton of encounters per day. It's not usually a good feat, but in certain circumstances it can be alright./ Not great, but alright.
Well he isn't picking maneuver feats and with a 3/4 BAB the ac bonus is no big deal. With 3 ranks in acrobatics he gets +3 to ac when fighting defensively without wasting a feat. At higher levels he has spells to help him out, mirror Image, blur or dimmension door if he has to escape. I don't know the Cheliax trait, is it core (corebook or APG)?
Again, not recommending it, just saying it's better than fighting defensively, and for some people it can be good, not necessarily for that specific build. It's not a useless feat, it's just situational.
That trait is from the Cheliax book - Archives of Nethys has it, and it is indeed called Threatening Defender (I'd link directly to it, but the traits don't have direct links).
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I think you are wrong. When I played the bard she never, and I mean never, ran out vof rounds per day after level 7.Well, like I said, it depends on how many combats per day you have and how long they last, on average. At 7 you'd have 16 + Cha mod rounds per day, so provided you have 4 encounters that last 4 rounds or less each, you're good (and have some left over for out of combat stuff if necessary), but some groups take longer to finish encounters, and some GMs like to throw a ton of encounters per day. It's not usually a good feat, but in certain circumstances it can be alright./ Not great, but alright.
I think DrowVampyre is right, this kind of thing is campaign/GM dependent. I've been in groups where the average combat lasts 3-4 rounds, and I've also been in groups where combat tops the 20 round range. It depends entirely on how your group is built and how it operates. In the 'average' world of Pathfinder Society adventures I'd say most players have to work with roughly 20-25 rounds of combat a day which would roughly measure out to level 7-8 for when you don't have to worry anymore.
New feat list:
H-Combat Expertise
1- Combat Reflexes
3- Power Attack
5- Gang Up
7- Stepup
9- Following Step
11- Step up and Strike
13- Feat
15- Feat
17- Rolibar's Gambit
19- Teleport TacticianI only took combat expertise because i need it for gang up. The +2 to hit is valueable to me.
Ah it's a Prerequisite. I totaly missed that. How stupid of me.
Any ideas for the spare spots?
Improved Critical is nice and since you going to to some buffing Improved Initiative is very good.
Quick draw might be nice or Toughness.
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Lunge isn't a bad Feat to use if you use Mirror Image and Blur for your defensive strategy. It also stacks well with combat reflexes.
My strategy was a little more anti caster with my feats I took shield focus, missile shield (sorry about that true strike range attacks), ray shield (sorry disintegrate), Improved counter spell, parry spell, step up, following step, syep up and strike.
I actualy use a ring of force shield or a buckler to leave my off hand free for rods, wands and casting.
If so desired, I could map out my build in a follow up post.