|
My experience with psionics in the World's Oldest RPG is extremely limited. I found it to be tacked on, cumbersome, and overpowering in our AD&D 1st edition games. Later, I watched powergamers used it to overwhelming effects in the 3.x games I played. (I never allowed it in my 3.x games because it didn't fit the flavor of my campaigns. This included my Eberron games.)
Admitting my bias above, I'm curious about those who have ran campaigns using psionics concurrently with the 3.x magic system. Did you find them "balanced"? Could a psion, for example, take the place of a wizard/sorcerer in a standard party of cleric, fighter, rogue, and magic-user and there'd be the same balance when fighting a monster as outlined in the DMG? What happened when a wizard fought a psion? Was it equally matched? Or did the quadratic former flatten the linear latter like it (supposedly) did to fighter? Or was it the other way around? I know that, when I played a spell-point using wizard, it felt and played quite different than the same wizard using spell slots.
No; Vancian magic is far too powerful to work will with psionics...or with anything else, for that matter. My advice is to kill the wizard, cleric, and druid, and use either subset classes like the beguiler, spontanious casters like the sorcerer, and/or psionic classes.
...I'm being honest about this, too. That's seriously how I feel.
There are a couple things on this. Overall, I think they are fairly ballanced against eachother, each with bennefits and drawbacks. I think there were some bad things about psions that can be easily corrected.
1. Number of spells/day. Psion can get more high level spells. Wizard gets many more total spells. Some like this, some don't. If you play with long adventuring days, the wizard comes out ahead. If you have 1-2 encounters per day, the psion will likely shine. Wizard will win in utility. Most psionic spells do not scale, so the psion will need to spend higher level spells to get the same effect.
2. Power of spells. A number of psionic spells are overpowered or just were not well thought out. Some appear that way but arren't.
3. Free silent-stilled. Psionics get other components. While wizards have to deal with speaking and hand jestures, and get hosed when those are prevented, a psion has other tells that are passive and cannot be prevented. This is my biggest problem with psionics.
No; Vancian magic is far too powerful to work will with psionics...or with anything else, for that matter. My advice is to kill the wizard, cleric, and druid, and use either subset classes like the beguiler, spontanious casters like the sorcerer, and/or psionic classes.
...I'm being honest about this, too. That's seriously how I feel.
Vancian magic is too powerful? Can you elaborate for me, please? I don't have a lot of experience with other spell casting systems, so I don't know what a better alternative would be, or what the problems with vancian spell casting are to begin with.
Vancian magic is too powerful? Can you elaborate for me, please? I don't have a lot of experience with other spell casting systems, so I don't know what a better alternative would be.No; Vancian magic is far too powerful to work will with psionics...or with anything else, for that matter. My advice is to kill the wizard, cleric, and druid, and use either subset classes like the beguiler, spontanious casters like the sorcerer, and/or psionic classes.
...I'm being honest about this, too. That's seriously how I feel.
He thinks wizards and sorcerers are more powerful than the other base classes, and thinks the vancian system is to blame. Personally, I think the vancian system is a huge limmitting factor on d&d casters, as opposed to more freeform magic systems like Mage, where you can litterally do whatever you want.
|
yes they are mostly balanced (with spells being the stronger option); they just have different strengths. Also I'm assuming magic/psi transparency, if you aren't using that rule you deserve the massive imbalance and headaches you'll receive. Now lets get this out of the way:
Psionics: highly focused, but adaptable powers.
Spells: far ranging but mostly completely fixed.
Now what does this mean?
well to take a classic, Fireball(spell) will do more damage but will always be fire, wile Energyball(power) will always do 5d6 but the type will change. It comes down to foresight and spell access; a psionic character can usually adapt their powers to an imperfect or perfect fit for the fight, while a magic user will not always be able to. However the final part of that sentence is dependent on the magic player being a moron. Spells are always more powerful than an equivalent power, they can also do far more than an equivalent power,summon monster is always better than astral construct, and any spell caster (especially wizards) can have access to any of the near 300+ different spells ever printed at any one time; Pionics MUST specialize, they do not have ready access to all powers. Also Wizards have more staying power, a Psion going all out, without a care for his total power points left will run out of powers before the Wizard gets though 2/3 of her spells, however a psionic character is capable of sending down range nearly double the powers in that amount time if really highly speced out (this is know as novaing). When fully compared the psion is closest to the Sorcerer, capable of a few tricks that they can do very well and little else.
as with all class to class comparsions player skill is a factor. A skilled psion will beat an unskilled wizard; and vice versa.
Vancian magic is too powerful? Can you elaborate for me, please? I don't have a lot of experience with other spell casting systems, so I don't know what a better alternative would be, or what the problems with vancian spell casting are to begin with.No; Vancian magic is far too powerful to work will with psionics...or with anything else, for that matter. My advice is to kill the wizard, cleric, and druid, and use either subset classes like the beguiler, spontanious casters like the sorcerer, and/or psionic classes.
...I'm being honest about this, too. That's seriously how I feel.
Wizards, clerics, and druids get too many spell slots and, with auto-scaling powers, their spells are always powerful, meaning that those 9 level 3 spell slots never lose their power. On top of that, they have unmatched versatility - there is indeed a spell for every occasion, and the top three dogs can have each of those spells memorized and ready.
Specialist classes like the beguiler have less versatility and fewer spell slots. Spontanious casters have drastically fewer spells known and thus need to specialize rather then "be good at everything." The power point system requires both specialization and does not auto-scale, so that you need to pump up powers and spend additional resources for them to keep their usefulness.
Besides, the only psion-only spell that's more powerful then wizard stuff is schism. All the other "overpowered" powers are just copies of wizard spells, only the wizard has them autoscale for free.
|
Admitting my bias above, I'm curious about those who have ran campaigns using psionics concurrently with the 3.x magic system. Did you find them "balanced"?
You've hit on one of the latest feuds on these forums. There are those who feel psionics are balanced and probably as many who feel they're not. There are extremists on both sides of the argument. You'll probably figure out who the extremists are. I suggest you remember their names for later...
Anyway, that it seems like there are an equal number of people on both ends of the discussion with an equal number of extremists, the only true answer is that you need to experience it and decide for yourself. I know its not exactly what you'd hoped for when you asked your question but its probably the best advice anyone can give you (outside of your own personal group of players... since they'll likely share many of your opinions)... though there will be plenty of people who will try to say otherwise.
Admitting my bias above, I'm curious about those who have ran campaigns using psionics concurrently with the 3.x magic system. Did you find them "balanced"?You've hit on one of the latest feuds on these forums. There are those who feel psionics are balanced and probably as many who feel they're not. There are extremists on both sides of the argument. You'll probably figure out who the extremists are. I suggest you remember their names for later...
Anyway, that it seems like there are an equal number of people on both ends of the discussion with an equal number of extremists, the only true answer is that you need to experience it and decide for yourself. I know its not exactly what you'd hoped for when you asked your question but its probably the best advice anyone can give you (outside of your own personal group of players... since they'll likely share many of your opinions)... though there will be plenty of people who will try to say otherwise.
I agree with this. Each system has its uses, and there will never be complete balance. Most players reel themselves in when they overstep the power boundaries of a their group so balance is hard to prove due to various play styles.
My experience playing and some numerical analysis I've done both say they are about the same. There are some things that psionics does better - the telepathic powers and the direct damage options are superior for the psion or wilder, although they do have drawbacks - energy ball was mentioned above, and I'll have to correct that poster because energy ball is a 4th level power (it inflicts 7d6 damage without augmentation), and is a speciality power so only Kineticists (a sub-discipline of psion) can take it without a feat. It is more versatile than fireball in that it can use any energy form, but is otherwise the same in range and area of effect.
However, the fact that greater direct damage against a single target with psionics does not mean that the evoker has yet another reason to cry in his beer, as the area effects for psionic powers that do this damage are generally worse. They don't get so much as a simple 15' cone until they get 2nd level powers. The fact that all of these powers need to be augmented to deal 'full' damage appropriate to their level mean they in effect always cost as much as the highest level power you can manifest. In other words, you can out-blast the evoker, but he can blast wider and longer.
Telepathy powers are excellent, perhaps too good in some cases, but that is where most people would expect psionics to be better.
In all other fields the psion is equal to or worse than the wizard or sorcerer. Abjuration, Illusions and Necromancy have no psionic equivalents, so psions come second to wizards in these fields.
A psion can take a wizard or sorcerer's place in a 'standard' party, although they have to work to conserve their power points if you make the party work a four-encounter adventuring day. This isn't a bad thing, it gives the rest of the party a chance to shine. A wilder would strugle to do so, they just don't have the variety of powers required - they are best as 5th-member specialists. Psychic warriors can stand in for fighters quite solidly, and are more effective in 3.5 at higher level. The 3.5 soulknife ... well the kindest thing you could say about him is that he could fill the monk's shoes in a party in 3.5.
My experience with psionics in the World's Oldest RPG is extremely limited. I found it to be tacked on, cumbersome, and overpowering in our AD&D 1st edition games. Later, I watched powergamers used it to overwhelming effects in the 3.x games I played. (I never allowed it in my 3.x games because it didn't fit the flavor of my campaigns. This included my Eberron games.)
Admitting my bias above, I'm curious about those who have ran campaigns using psionics concurrently with the 3.x magic system. Did you find them "balanced"? Could a psion, for example, take the place of a wizard/sorcerer in a standard party of cleric, fighter, rogue, and magic-user and there'd be the same balance when fighting a monster as outlined in the DMG? What happened when a wizard fought a psion? Was it equally matched? Or did the quadratic former flatten the linear latter like it (supposedly) did to fighter? Or was it the other way around? I know that, when I played a spell-point using wizard, it felt and played quite different than the same wizard using spell slots.
Balanced is too strong a word, different but works, is closer to the truth. I prefer the Psionic system myself for the flexibility and wished it was the default magic system in the game.
Thanks for the reply, professor.
What if all spell casters had a power point system, following the same rules as the psion?(specialization, no auto-scaling, ect), like this one? Does this fix any problems?
*Stumbles on to thread accidently. Raises arms to appear bigger and backs away slowly.*
*Stumbles on to thread accidently. Raises arms to appear bigger and backs away slowly.*Well, at least pick up some of Dark Mistress's cookies before you go! ^_^
Ohh, cookies!
Crap, it was a trap! Now I'm stuck.
Ohh, cookies!
Crap, it was a trap! Now I'm stuck.
We have you now! Prepare him, my minions for psychic surgery! Mwahahahahaha!
|
|
Thanks for the reply, professor.
What if all spell casters had a power point system, following the same rules as the psion?(specialization, no auto-scaling, ect), like this one? Does this fix any problems?
sadly no, spellpoints tend to take the inherent strengths of the wizard and magnify them, see also: Spell to Power Eurdite.
Yes. Insert the command, "chocolate chip cookies are good. Chocolate chip cookies are...."We have you now! Prepare him, my minions for psychic surgery! Mwahahahahaha!Ohh, cookies!
Crap, it was a trap! Now I'm stuck.
Hooray for cookies!
Thanks for the reply, professor.
What if all spell casters had a power point system, following the same rules as the psion?(specialization, no auto-scaling, ect), like this one? Does this fix any problems?
The problem is, as 9mm said, that only amplifies their strengths. The wizard now has even more versatility as he can put a different spell into each and every prepared slot, and can now cast amongst them as he chooses. It's essentially giving the wizard even more versatility and then adding all the strengths of a spontanious caster on top of it.
Like I said earlier, I have much less problem with spontanious casters like sorcerers or oracles, or for the "specialist" style characters like the beguiler.
I think a Mana point system that replicates the PP system is possible if you remove autoscaling on some spells (AoE and direct damage spells for instance) and move others up or down in mana point cost based on their actual utility. Certain spells would simply have to be jettisoned completely in order to make it work seamlessly.
Of course that involves doing a lot of work rebalancing the spell list which most people seem reluctant to do as it's a considerable amount of work.
I think a Mana point system that replicates the PP system is possible if you remove autoscaling on some spells (AoE and direct damage spells for instance) and move others up or down in mana point cost based on their actual utility. Certain spells would simply have to be jettisoned completely in order to make it work seamlessly.
Of course that involves doing a lot of work rebalancing the spell list which most people seem reluctant to do as it's a considerable amount of work.
Actually, that would probably end you up with something very like the psionics system. Some would argue that's one reason for having it - it gives the option of an SP system for those that want it ...