So I've read a few posts on this and I am still a bit confused on how Cleaving Finish works or why I should even consider taking it.
If I Cleave someone and hit and then cleave again with great cleave until I can't hit anyone what is the point of taking Cleaving Finish? The text seems to apply that when the target is 0 or lower cleave/great cleave seems to not be able to continue to the next target and stops unless this feat is taken but there is no text with those feats saying that HP on a target 0 or less stops it. So if first target HP I drop to 0 or lower on my first great cleave then it stops too?
So why should I take it? And it says within range? I assume range means the adjacent to said target that got hit as well or a creature that may not be adjacent to the targets of my cleave/great cleave attack.
The only thing I could think of that this means that with this feat is that as a bonus for reducing a target to 0 or less I get a regular attack after I finish my cleave attacks? Is it a regular attack or can I just cleave again a second time without the finish bonus?
I apologize for sounding stupid but I want to make sure I understand this. I am new to the system and want to make sure I understand this.
Thank you for your help.
- Dark -
The feat is basically considered to be a poor feat to take. There is really no point to taking it.
Within range assumed you can reach the target with your melee weapon.
Because Cleaving Finish works with a full attack. Cleave is a standard action to use, so you can't full attack with it.
That said, Cleave sucks, and the fact they make you waste a feat on it just to get Cleaving Finish makes it extremely undesireable.
For the record, "Cleaving Finish" is what "Cleave" was back in D&D 3E.
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Because Cleaving Finish works with a full attack. Cleave is a standard action to use, so you can't full attack with it.
That said, Cleave sucks, and the fact they make you waste a feat on it just to get Cleaving Finish makes it extremely undesireable.
For the record, "Cleaving Finish" is what "Cleave" was back in D&D 3E.
No. Cleave always worked pretty much the way it is described in Pathfinder. WoTC worded it poorly in 3.5 and every powergamer and their brother's retarded monkey broke it like it was a religion. But if you go back and read it like a reasonable person - and read BOTH Cleave and Great Cleave, and you happen to know what the word "A" means (it means ONE), you quickly come to understand that you (either purposefully or unwittingly) got the feat wrong back then.
The fights Cleave and GC caused on the WoTC board were epic. But one side was always breaking it hard and obviously and was therefore ALWAYS WRONG. Wizards, unfortunately, never bothered to chime in with a definitive answer. I believe they actually loved the uproar it caused.
But no DM/GM with a reasonable brain would have allowed the misinterpretation of it at his table, it was so ridiculously broken (I know: I had a Large size PC attempt to kill 40-something foes in a single round with it - obviously NOT what it was intended for). And those who did had a 50% chance of showing up on the boards the next day, starting a new thread to complain about their fighters breaking the game with it, and starting all the arguments over again.
In the end though, "A" means ONE! ONE! Not "until you don't feel like rolling anymore." ONE. Yes, I actually had an argument with three powergamers in one of those threads, who refused to believe the Merriam-Webster definition of "A" even though I pasted it into the thread and linked it as well.
In 3.5 you only cleaved if you killed the enemy. That is what cleaving finish does now. Great Cleave in 3.5 allowed you to keep cleaving as long as you could keep killing.
With PF cleave you only need to hit something to cleave.
No. Cleave always worked pretty much the way it is described in Pathfinder. WoTC worded it poorly in 3.5 and every powergamer and their brother's retarded monkey broke it like it was a religion. But if you go back and read it like a reasonable person - and read BOTH Cleave and Great Cleave, and you happen to know what the word "A" means (it means ONE), you quickly come to understand that you (either purposefully or unwittingly) got the feat wrong back then.
The fights Cleave and GC caused on the WoTC board were epic. But one side was always breaking it hard and obviously and was therefore ALWAYS WRONG. Wizards, unfortunately, never bothered to chime in with a definitive answer. I believe they actually loved the uproar it caused.
But no DM/GM with a reasonable brain would have allowed the misinterpretation of it at his table, it was so ridiculously broken (I know: I had a Large size PC attempt to kill 40-something foes in a single round with it - obviously NOT what it was intended for). And those who did had a 50% chance of showing up on the boards the next day, starting a new thread to complain about their fighters breaking the game with it, and starting all the arguments over again.
In the end though, "A" means ONE! ONE! Not "until you don't feel like rolling anymore." ONE. Yes, I actually had an argument with three powergamers in one of those threads, who refused to believe the Merriam-Webster definition of "A" even though I pasted it into the thread and linked it as well.
First of all, calm the hell down.
Second of all, I'm aware that you could only use cleave once per round, if that was the point you were trying to make amidst all that babbling. I dunno, I started just glancing over your text at the part where you called me a retarded monkey.
The point is that you could use that ONE, yes ONE extra attack from cleave on any sort of attack action. So you could full attack, drop someONE, and get ONE extra attack during that ONE round. Instead of PF's version where you have to use a standard action to cleave.
Great Cleave, though, you could use as much as it applied. Not just ONcE.
I hope that this ONE post was enough to enlighten you.
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I hit Abe with a normal non-cleave attack. I kill Abe. I get a free attack against Ben. That's what Cleaving Finish does.
I declare that I am using Cleave, spend a standard action, reduce my AC, and attack Abe. I hit him, but he does not die. I get a free attack against Ben. That's what Cleave does.
The former does NOT need to be declared before attacking and does not use an action, allowing it to be used with a charge, full attack, or anything else for that matter--all that is needed is for me to drop the target. The latter does need to be declared in advance, but is easier to follow up on as it triggers on a successful attack, not a successful kill.
They stack.
If I have Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, and Improved Cleaving Finish, then I can do the following:
I declare that I am using Cleave and attack Abe. I hit, and so get a free attack against Ben. I hit him too so I get a free attack against Clyde due to Great Cleave. I hit Clyde and he dies. I get a free attack from Cleaving Finish and use it to attack Abe a second time. Abe dies. I now get a free attack from Improved Cleaving Finish to attack and kill Ben.
Wow! I just killed three people with a single standard action! Now what am I to do with my move action that I have left over? :P
When you have Cleave and Cleaving Finish it is even possible to get TWO bonus attacks off of one person by both hitting and dropping them. That alone is pretty cool. There are few things a non-spellcaster can do better to clear a room.
I hope that clears up a few things.
If I have Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, and Improved Cleaving Finish, then I can do the following:
I declare that I am using Cleave and attack Abe. I hit, and so get a free attack against Ben. I hit him too so I get a free attack against Clyde due to Great Cleave. I hit Clyde and he dies. I get a free attack from Cleaving Finish and use it to attack Abe a second time. Abe dies. I now get a free attack from Improved Cleaving Finish to attack and kill Ben.
Wow! I just killed three people with a single standard action! Now what am I to do with my move action that I have left over? :P
That was a nice description. Thank you. I think my next fighter will consider the cleave-combo.
Thank you all for the replies.
They helped a lot. Just some follow-up questions to clarify I read right on what Rave posted.
So Finishing Cleave works without needing to use cleave/great cleave correct? So that means if I am flanked, attacked the target in front of me, dropped him, I can turn around and attack the one behind me (does that provoke a Attack of Opportunity for turning around?) or cleave has to be used? I agree it says "If you make a melee attack" and doesn't state if cleave has to be used or not so just wanted to make sure. It is a prerequisites but you don't have to use power attack obviously to use Cleave/Great Cleave.
Within reach means just what it says or reach as in what is adjacent of your targets ( A B C are in front of me I can hit I just can't hit D which is flanking mean)?
Though I am confused on what Bruunwald meant, no offense dude.
Except of course, the game gravitates towards encounters with fewer strong enemies at later levels, making most of "hit many things at once" tactics less desirable than early on.
Which makes the fighter's retrain bonus feat ability the more desirable.
Except of course, the game gravitates towards encounters with fewer strong enemies at later levels, making most of "hit many things at once" tactics less desirable than early on.
I beg to differ! There's a way to keep Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, and Improved Cleaving Finish relevant at higher levels. Now this sounds crazy but you need to get yourself a bag of rats....
Except of course, the game gravitates towards encounters with fewer strong enemies at later levels, making most of "hit many things at once" tactics less desirable than early on.I beg to differ! There's a way to keep Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, and Improved Cleaving Finish relevant at higher levels. Now this sounds crazy but you need to get yourself a bag of rats....
The need for keeping the right timing and sequence of such maneuver gives me a headache... Wait, no, its the weather giving me headache.
So Finishing Cleave works without needing to use cleave/great cleave correct?
Correct. It triggers whenever you drop an enemy.
So that means if I am flanked, attacked the target in front of me, dropped him, I can turn around and attack the one behind me (does that provoke a Attack of Opportunity for turning around?) or cleave has to be used?
Yes, you can do this. Cleave may be used, but is not required (it is a separate, if similar mechanic). There is no facing in Pathfinder, as combat is somewhat abstracted. You are considered to be facing all directions at once.
I agree it says "If you make a melee attack" and doesn't state if cleave has to be used or not so just wanted to make sure. It is a prerequisites but you don't have to use power attack obviously to use Cleave/Great Cleave.
You're on the right track now, it seems.
Within reach means just what it says or reach as in what is adjacent of your targets ( A B C are in front of me I can hit I just can't hit D which is flanking mean)?
For most medium creatures, your reach (your threatened area) covers all adjacent squares. It doesn't matter what side of your square they are on (there is no facing!), so you can be surrounded by up to eight creatures (one for each adjacent square) and still be able to attack any of them. Makes Cleave and Cleaving Finish even better looking, doesn't it?
If you have a reach weapon (such as a guisarme) then your threatened area starts ten feet out, but not adjacent, creating a doughnut threatened area.
I hope that helps.
So that means if I am flanked, attacked the target in front of me, dropped him, I can turn around and attack the one behind me (does that provoke a Attack of Opportunity for turning around?) or cleave has to be used?Yes, you can do this. Cleave may be used, but is not required (it is a separate, if similar mechanic). There is no facing in Pathfinder, as combat is somewhat abstracted. You are considered to be facing all directions at once.
Not quite. Cleave/great cleave could not be used in this scenario as both required that additional targets be adjacent to the first. In a flanking scenario the two targets are not adjacent to each other so would not allow a cleave action. Cleaving finish only requires they be in your threatened area, so does of course work in the flank scenario on the condition you drop the first target.
Quite right, bbangerter. Thanks for the clarification.
Sweet, thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions. It was a HUGE help to me. I am now able to finish my fighter. Thanks again.
- Dark -