So when someone is running, they lose there Dex bonus to AC (unless they have the Run feat). Fair enough. It's much harder to change direction and move out of the way of things when you are putting everything into going as fast as you can. But this only makes sense in melee. When we bring ranged attacks into the picture, it falls apart. Seriously, Shooting 101 tells you that hitting a moving target is always much harder than hitting a stationary one.
But try as I might, I can find no modifiers or penalties for ranged attacks shooting at runners. Is this really the case? Is it actually harder for an archer to hit someone standing (relatively) still than it is to hit someone sprinting as hard as they can?
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So when someone is running, they lose there Dex bonus to AC (unless they have the Run feat). Fair enough. It's much harder to change direction and move out of the way of things when you are putting everything into going as fast as you can. But this only makes sense in melee. When we bring ranged attacks into the picture, it falls apart. Seriously, Shooting 101 tells you that hitting a moving target is always much harder than hitting a stationary one.
But try as I might, I can find no modifiers or penalties for ranged attacks shooting at runners. Is this really the case? Is it actually harder for an archer to hit someone standing (relatively) still than it is to hit someone sprinting as hard as they can?
Arrows and bolts can actually be dodged. You can see them coming and get out of the way. This is even more true for thrown weapons. You can't do this when your running.
It's matter of perspective in this case.
If Bob is sprinting past me, and I take my attack of Opportunity with, say, my hand axe, he is easier to hit. Think of any time you see someone get stiff-armed while running.
As for ranged attacks, The opponennt sprinting is moving in a predictable straight line (you cannot turn while sprinting) so it's a simple matter to simply aim a little ahead and predict his movements. In addition, a good deal of the time, the target's concentration is focused solely on what is in front of him, and in the distance, and not on the guy with the crossbow.
In all other cases, yes it is harder to hit a moving target. for most weapons, after moving 120 feet, the target starts to move into multiple range increments (long bow not withstanding of course).
Certainly it might be easier to avoid bowshots if you are both aware of the shooter and actively trying not to be shot (as opposed to being 'relatively still')
Batts
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It's matter of perspective in this case.
I disagree; I don't see much perspective at all.
All combat is happening simultaneously. Therefore, any attempt to attack another creature at any point during the round is "attacking a moving creature" if that creature moves.
A creature that is running is moving faster than a creature that takes a single move or a double move, but estimating how much lead is needed to hit the target is something that can be practiced and it won't matter what the actual speed of the target is. (At least, not for terrestial speeds. ;))
In addition, a good deal of the time, the target's concentration is focused solely on what is in front of him, and in the distance, and not on the guy with the crossbow.
This strikes me as the reason for the AC change when running or when charging -- you're distracted to the point of taking a penalty. Exactly the opposite of total defense or fighting defensively, when you're so focused that you gain a bonus.
Even if you aren't moving (as in taking a move action), you're still moving, too. You're assumed to be moving around in your 5x5 square constantly, dodging attacks, hopping back out of reach, etc. And this is very erratic movement. Sprinting movement is much more predictable, as people have said - you're going solely in a straight line, so leading is much easier that way than trying to lead your target that's hopping around in all sorts of directions.
If it's standing still, then yeah, that'd be easier. But that's flatfooted, so they lose their dex then too.
I'm going to take a page from the GURPS book for this one: in the RPG called GURPS, there is built into the rules for ranged attacking an increasing penalty to attack against a moving target, the faster the target is moving, the higher the penalty. However, the GURPS rules also say that any movement at a speed a normal human is capable of achieving on foot incurs no penalty, because humans simply can not run fast enough to affect the difficulty of hitting a moving target.
So, in Pathfinder we have the same situation, except that since no one is really flying around in helicopters or speeding across a bay in a cigarette boat, there is really no reason to mention it.
In reality, however, in both systems the real reason for ignoring penalties for hitting moving targets is to decrease the complexity of resolving combat. It is an abstraction to move the game along, and really, you can't expect every game to have rules for everything. These are games, and not accurate simulations of life.
I shoot (bows & guns). While hitting a moving target is much harder than a stationary, a target sprinting in a strait line is a far easier shot than one actively trying to dodge while moving. My two cents.
The guy who isn't moving through squares isn't stationary. He's moving around in his 5' square area. That's why he has his Dex bonus to AC.
Anytime someone can't move at all, such as being paralyzed, they are specifically called out as losing their Dex.
The only normal guy who shouldn't have Dex to AC is a guy running as fast as possible in a straight line... unless he's trained to keep his guard while running like that (don't put your head down, etc).
So yeah.. seems to be working fine for me.
Iirc in 3rd Edition running denied the Dex bonus BUT granted a +1 to AC against ranged attacks.
Shooting 101 tells you that someone coming rigth to you is a easy target, but someone running in a perpendicular direction is a very difficult direction. However, I wouldn't use DM adjudication for the usual combat situations.
Also consider that things in the game that are described as stationary or helpless are much easier to hit, because they are still. The game just assumes that most of the time you will always be shooting at people moving in combat as standard. So, you're looking at it from the wrong end. It's not harder to hit a moving target, it's easier to hit a stationary target. Which makes sense because people are pretty much always moving in combat.
So when someone is running, they lose there Dex bonus to AC (unless they have the Run feat). Fair enough. It's much harder to change direction and move out of the way of things when you are putting everything into going as fast as you can. But this only makes sense in melee. When we bring ranged attacks into the picture, it falls apart. Seriously, Shooting 101 tells you that hitting a moving target is always much harder than hitting a stationary one.
But try as I might, I can find no modifiers or penalties for ranged attacks shooting at runners. Is this really the case? Is it actually harder for an archer to hit someone standing (relatively) still than it is to hit someone sprinting as hard as they can?
You are only considered running during your turn, thus the lost dex only applies to immediate action attacks and AoO that happen during your turn.
On any attack that occurs after your turn you are not considered running.
You are only considered running during your turn, thus the lost dex only applies to immediate action attacks and AoO that happen during your turn.
On any attack that occurs after your turn you are not considered running.
Why do you say this? I have seen nothing in the rules which says you are only denied your dex bonus on your turn, so what would make you infer this from the printed text? Also, how would this make sense in a situation where the character is running for more than one round? RAW says running is a full-round action, and a full round action takes the entire round to complete, ending at the beginning of your next turn.
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Why do you say this? I have seen nothing in the rules which says you are only denied your dex bonus on your turn, so what would make you infer this from the printed text? Also, how would this make sense in a situation where the character is running for more than one round? RAW says running is a full-round action, and a full round action takes the entire round to complete, ending at the beginning of your next turn.You are only considered running during your turn, thus the lost dex only applies to immediate action attacks and AoO that happen during your turn.
On any attack that occurs after your turn you are not considered running.
No a full round action takes your entire rounds worth of actions. A 1 round action takes until the beginning of your next turn.
A penalty does not extend beyond your turn unless specified.You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by
sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all
melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain
a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to
damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making
an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed
weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon
that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modif ier on damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches
+4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases
by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and
its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage
does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal
hit point damage.
your effort during a round. The only movement you can
take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before,
during, or after the action. You can also perform free
actions
and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a
list of full-round actions.
Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a
5-foot step.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions,
but only in situations when you are limited to performing
only a standard action during your round. The descriptions
of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.
Wind stance is a feat that grants the sort of effect you might be looking for. When ever you move, you it's harder for ranged attacks to hit you.
Also I have to agree with Snapshot, you only lose dex during the movement. The archer is not shooting during the time you are moving, they are shooting you before or after your turn. (It's best not to get into the fuzziness of turns vs real time)
Running has you moving in a straight line. You aren't exactly zigging and zagging about while you sprint. It's somewhat easy to forecast where to send the missile at the guy who's going in a straight line.
Running has you moving in a straight line. You aren't exactly zigging and zagging about while you sprint. It's somewhat easy to forecast where to send the missile at the guy who's going in a straight line.
I was about to say that. It's like leading a dove versus leading a rabbit. You have a damn good idea where that dove is going to fly, rabbits dart all over the place.
I agree that the loss of Dex only applies on your turn. There's no text that indicates it applies 'until the beginning of your next turn'. Thus, the penalty would really only apply to Attacks of Opportunity provoked on your turn, or Readied Actions (to y'know, shoot you as you try to run from cover to cover).
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a simulationist perspective (since everything is supposed to be happening simultaneously), but that's the RAW as far as I can see.