A question to any who have any opinion on the matter: the 3.5 WotC Monster Manual has Krakens as a CR 12 with 20 HD and 290 HP; the Pathfinder Bestiary has Krakens as a CR 18 with 20 HD and 290 HP. My question: why the huge increase in CR given the same amount of hit dice and hit points. I get that Krakens may have been slightly tougher than their original CR 12 would indicate, but with little changes between the Pathfinder and original 3.5 versions, is a net increase of 6 CR's necessary? Can a Kraken realistically survive even 1 round against a group of 18th level player characters??? I ask you.
The Pathfinder version does have a lot of advantages compared to the 3.5 version; it is immune to mind-affecting effects, it has a much higher AC, it has double the swim speed and can also move on land, the ink cloud is poisonous, it doesn't gain the grappled condition when it grabs, and the rend ships ability can be quite useful.
Now, I'm not sure those advantages warrant a +6 CR-increase, but they certainly make it a much more formidable foe.
Very good points. thanks.
Just a suggestion: don't use it as a relevant (equal CR) encounter fo level 18: use it as a scary "boss" encounter fol level 13.
Well comparing it to the Monster Statistics by CR table found here here you can see that according to the table the Kraken should be CR 18.
The tarrasque is another good example. He lost 300hp, but gained +5 CR. He even lost about a solid +15 to his attack bonus.
What did he gain? Second edition style magic reflection, where anything coming straight at him will NEVER work, even if it doesn't allow Spell Resistance. Twice as fast. A FREAKING RANGED GAME. Oh, and Stunning Critical on a bite attack that crits on a 15+.
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A question to any who have any opinion on the matter: the 3.5 WotC Monster Manual has Krakens as a CR 12 with 20 HD and 290 HP; the Pathfinder Bestiary has Krakens as a CR 18 with 20 HD and 290 HP. My question: why the huge increase in CR given the same amount of hit dice and hit points. I get that Krakens may have been slightly tougher than their original CR 12 would indicate, but with little changes between the Pathfinder and original 3.5 versions, is a net increase of 6 CR's necessary? Can a Kraken realistically survive even 1 round against a group of 18th level player characters??? I ask you.
We changed the CR of the kraken because an analysis of the amount of damage a high-Strength creature with close to a dozen attacks can do puts it at the HIGH end of the CR scale. It fit the best at CR 18. Then, working backward from there, we rebuilt its stats as necessary so that its hp, AC, and all the rest were more or less what a CR 18 creature should have. We gave it a few additional advantages as well, as mentioned above.
And remember, a CR 18 kraken is NOT meant to be a challenge for an 18th level party. He's supposed to be an average encounter for an 18th level party. If you want a kraken encounter to be a challenge, throw it at a lower level party. If you want a kraken to serve as a significant challenge or boss monster for an 18th level party, you really should advance the kraken up to about CR 20–22.
There were a few other monsters that needed some major rebuilding as well, but in those cases (such as the rakshasa, ogre mage, and roper) we kept the original CR scores and reubilt them to match.
We tried to do the same with the kraken, but the fact that it's a gargantuan creature with 11 attacks means that the only way it would work at CR 12 would have been to give it a Strength of 15 or thereabouts. Which, obviously, is not a good choice.
We had similar problems balancing the ape, dire ape, and girallon; they have 3 attacks (and usually rend as well), which means that they quickly do a lot of damage. As a result, in order to keep their CR scores where they were (which was required, because to change THOSE would have messed with the already-at-the-printer summon nature's ally spells), we had to give apes, dire apes, and girallons what feels like a pretty low strength score.
We had similar problems balancing the ape, dire ape, and girallon; they have 3 attacks (and usually rend as well), which means that they quickly do a lot of damage. As a result, in order to keep their CR scores where they were (which was required, because to change THOSE would have messed with the already-at-the-printer summon nature's ally spells), we had to give apes, dire apes, and girallons what feels like a pretty low strength score.
The regular Ape got the short end of the stick there; it dropped 6 points rather than only 3 for the Dire Ape and the Girallon. It must be feeling a bit traumatized; it used to only be slightly weaker than its brethren, and now it's a weakling by comparison :P
We changed the CR of the kraken because an analysis of the amount of damage a high-Strength creature with close to a dozen attacks can do puts it at the HIGH end of the CR scale. It fit the best at CR 18. Then, working backward from there, we rebuilt its stats as necessary so that its hp, AC, and all the rest were more or less what a CR 18 creature should have. We gave it a few additional advantages as well, as mentioned above.
And remember, a CR 18 kraken is NOT meant to be a challenge for an 18th level party. He's supposed to be an average encounter for an 18th level party. If you want a kraken encounter to be a challenge, throw it at a lower level party. If you want a kraken to serve as a significant challenge or boss monster for an 18th level party, you really should advance the kraken up to about CR 20–22.
There were a few other monsters that needed some major rebuilding as well, but in those cases (such as the rakshasa, ogre mage, and roper) we kept the original CR scores and reubilt them to match.
We tried to do the same with the kraken, but the fact that it's a gargantuan creature with 11 attacks means that the only way it would work at CR 12 would have been to give it a Strength of 15 or thereabouts. Which, obviously, is not a good choice.
We had similar problems balancing the ape, dire ape, and girallon; they have 3 attacks (and usually rend as well), which means...
Many thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.