I'm looking for advice on how to approach an upcoming combat. We have the opportunity to rest and be at full strength when we enter combat. The party is looking at me as the tactician and I'm flat out of ideas.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Our last session ended with a cliffhanger in which our party was able to see down a pathway into the next room in the dungeon complex. The room is a large cavern with 50% of the floor being lava, and the other 50% being stone. The sole creature in the room is the 'boss' of the dungeon: an Ice Devil.
The DM has expressed doubts regarding our ability to overcome this threat, and I agree with him. Our paladin player (irl) left the party after we started this adventure and his character walked into the sunset. Unfortunately, we were unaware of devils in the dungeon and were not prepared for the fights we have thus far overcome. The sorceress in the party rolled a good enough Knowledge: planes that we are allowed to use all knowledge in the Bestiary for prep.
---------------------------------------------------------------
My character was a diviner, who was committed to the local asylum by my party after botching a contact other plane Int Check (house rule: nat 1 counts as a -10, DM ruled that my resulting negative Int check has me Feeble-minded for the next few months). As such I am bringing in a new character (a summoner) who will be joining the party tonight.
I could use my unique situation to save the party by purchasing just the things everyone needs, but I don't want to. This summoner is potentially a temporary character (depending on party mesh and if they save my diviner) and is joining directly at a large fight. I would really prefer not to. Its just cheap and would reduce the playability of the summoner if it becomes my permanent character.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our party (all 9th level):
Human Dexterous crit-hit fighter
Half-Elf Sorceress/Dragon-Disciple who concentrates on blasting fire spells
Reverse Switch hitting ranger (Two weapon fighting path and spending all feats on archery)
Melee combat cleric
and my new character, a summoner.
The sorceress: I don't know her full spell list, but what I recall of her known spells include Haste, Fly, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, and Fireball. Most of her wealth is tied into 3-4 metamagic rods.
The fighter: uses a keen rapier and weapon finesse. He has a 24 dex and wears light mithril armor. His AC is approx 30.
The ranger: uses a +1 falchion and non magical short sword in melee. His ranged attack uses a nice bow (+2 or 3, +4 str mod). He has rapid shot but not many. He is primarily a ranged character.
The cleric: lawful neutral (God is a homebrew: god of Resurrection and Revenge, domains chosen are strength and healing). He uses a Glaive +1 Keen Greyflame and Rhino hide armor. He tends to not buff but instead heal after combat. Usual spell mems are unusual spells that are useful in the right situation. As the day progresses he drops them for healing.
The summoner: CN 1/2 orc jungle shaman who calls his 'totem'. Uses adam. keen falchion and improved sunder in combat. Stats are high due to epic rolling method (18 Str, 20 Cha, no dump).
Creature is quadruped: large faux tiger with pounce and rend. He has flight(wings) and wing buffet to max attacks.
No caster has spell pen. Neither fighter has power attack.
----------------------------------------------------------
I've been puzzling over this all week and can't come up with a winning strategy. Our single melee character plus my pet won't be enough to hold him in place and his SLAs are going to be quite effective against us. Any suggestions would help.
:)
I'm looking for advice on how to approach an upcoming combat. We have the opportunity to rest and be at full strength when we enter combat. The party is looking at me as the tactician and I'm flat out of ideas.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Our last session ended with a cliffhanger in which our party was able to see down a pathway into the next room in the dungeon complex. The room is a large cavern with 50% of the floor being lava, and the other 50% being stone. The sole creature in the room is the 'boss' of the dungeon: an Ice Devil.
The DM has expressed doubts regarding our ability to overcome this threat, and I agree with him. Our paladin player (irl) left the party after we started this adventure and his character walked into the sunset. Unfortunately, we were unaware of devils in the dungeon and were not prepared for the fights we have thus far overcome. The sorceress in the party rolled a good enough Knowledge: planes that we are allowed to use all knowledge in the Bestiary for prep.
---------------------------------------------------------------
My character was a diviner, who was committed to the local asylum by my party after botching a contact other plane Int Check (house rule: nat 1 counts as a -10, DM ruled that my resulting negative Int check has me Feeble-minded for the next few months). As such I am bringing in a new character (a summoner) who will be joining the party tonight.
I could use my unique situation to save the party by purchasing just the things everyone needs, but I don't want to. This summoner is potentially a temporary character (depending on party mesh and if they save my diviner) and is joining directly at a large fight. I would really prefer not to. Its just cheap and would reduce the playability of the summoner if it becomes my permanent character.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our party (all 9th level):
Human Dexterous crit-hit fighter
Half-Elf...
Summon lots of lantern archons and take it down 1d6 at a time
The party should stay far apart to avoid him getting all of you with cone of cold. Wall of ice can be dealt with by the fire sorcerer. Those are his primary weapons along with melee attacks.
Casting haste on the party will help. I would suggest that be the first spell the sorcerer cast, before throwing direct damage spells at it. I would make sure the party can fly if you can so the lava wont be an issue.
What spells does the cleric usually have?
The monster at a CR of 13 is about the highest CR the party can be expected to take. Without more info on the builds I can say much more than prebuff, and dont make any mistakes.
PS: I would up the party's saves so they don't get affected by the poison also.
Maybe buff up the archer as much as possible (greater invisibility, silence, protection from cold, haste, align weapon, etc., maybe even phantom steed) and have him try to machine gun the damn thing while the rest of you hide in a rope trick or something. You might at least be able to drive it away.
Maybe buff up the archer as much as possible (greater invisibility, silence, protection from cold, haste, align weapon, etc., maybe even phantom steed) and have him try to machine gun the damn thing while the rest of you hide in a rope trick or something. You might at least be able to drive it away.
For some reason I was thinking the monster had dispel magic or see invis at will. Good idea. I would have the rest of the party helping though.
edit:changed the word parry to party
|
I've never GM'd but isn't a CR13 enemy a bit high for a party of 9th level PCs?
Here's what I'd do.
1. Buff like crazy. Haste is especially good because the crit fighter really benefits from an extra roll and the Slow from the Devil's weapon will only dispel Haste requiring two successful hits to actually slow. The Cleric should hopefully lead with a Holy Smite. The chances of the Devil passing the save are good but if you can manage to Blind him that would be great.
2. Place the Fighter on one side with the Cleric behind him. The Cleric can heal and buff the Fighter easily and still attack with his glaive.
3. Place the Eidolon on the other side. Consider giving your Eidolon Cold resist. Might help a bit. The flanking bonus will help it and the Fighter and Cleric on the other side to keep their hit rate and therefor damage high. Give the Eidolon as high a damage bonus as you can to ensure that it bypasses DR/Good, unless the Cleric can good align its attacks.
4. You (Summoner) should pop in to try and sunder the Devil's Spear, as this will prevent the Slow from ever occurring. After that, it might be best to duck out and start Summoning spells and renew and add buffs when possible. Ignore your Eidolon. If it dies, its because the Devil focused on it and saved the Fighter and Cleric gods only know how many hp. Once it is dead switch to your SLA's. Pick the celestial template obviously so that whatever you summon can smite evil. You might even consider summoning a Hound Archon ASAP to put your allies (and you while you sunder) inside its constant Magic Circle Against Evil. As someone else already mentioned, the multitudes of Lantern Archon's (who bypass DR with their Ray of Light, of which each has two) will be handy. Their bonus to hit sucks so you'll only have a 50/50 shot with each ray but that means one ray per archon gets through on average. Get a lot of them. You'll need them to get through 160hp. A celestial Wooly Rhino will do a substantial amount of damage on a charge if you want to go for some style. It's actually not a bad idea since you can charge, then trample, then charge again. You'll have to suffer through the DR but 4d8 +18 (plus smite, 34 damage on average after DR) on the charge isn't bad and the trample (18 damage after DR) is decent, too. The average three Lantern Archons you could get with that spell do 21 damage if all hit on average so the trade-off. However, the Devil's AC is stupid high so the Archon's will definitely hit more and win in the damage race over the course of the fight.
Just to follow up, don't forget that rangers get some great buff spells in the APG now:
- Gravity Bow -- extra damage always helps
- Aspect of the Falcon -- increased crit range and bonus to hit with bows
- Negate Aroma -- invisibility to smell; with greater invisibility + silence, he should be almost impossible to detect
It's just a shame that he doesn't have 3rd level spells; Instant Enemy can help a lot, assuming he doesn't have Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider) already.
Good idea. I would have the rest of the party helping though.
Maybe, but more isn't always better. One or two super-buffed characters can be more efficient sometimes. A bunch of lantern archons would help, as mentioned above (they'll have to spread out to avoid cones of cold). The sorceress can help burn through any walls of ice with her fire spells, too.
Thanks for the comments. I wrote a nice long post but the board ate it :(
The game starts in 1.5 hours so I'll be sure to check back before then.
The main points of my long post:
Greater Teleport at will
This monster is smart enough to leave for a minute and come back if lots of buffed people enter or it takes high damage. If it really flees, the DM has a <3-on for monsters teleporting in during camp. Barring those, it may simply leave to another area in the room (assuming large enough) and make us spend precious rounds chasing him.
AC/CMD
My sunder is nerfed by the high CMD. I need a nat 20 to hit. His high AC means the cleric needs a 19 to hit (prior to buffs), the rhino is about as good as the cleric for that, a lot of the other summons require nat 20s as well.
Also, due to lava pools, I'm assuming that charging will be unusable. We weren't able to see details in the quick look last second, so this could be incorrect.
Have the cleric cast align weapon on the fighter's rapier and the ammo for the ranger's bow to bypass the devil's DR.
Have the cleric buff up energy resists for himself and the fighter (either resist energy or protection from energy).
Ranger needs to stay away (preferably invisible as others have said) and ping away at it.
Buff up fighter and/or ranger's dexterity score(s) with Cat's Grace.
Try to have the cleric land a dimensional anchor on the devil to prevent teleporting.
Have the fighter and cleric stick together.
The cleric can cast spiritual weapon (which bypasses damage reduction but is subject to SR on its first strike) to be able to lend some damage (hopefully) while concentrating on keeping up the fighter and himself.
Summoner does his thing and uses summons and eidolon to flank or harrass the devil while fighter and ranger bang away at it.
Just some thoughts. Good luck!
Wait, you said nobody has power attack?
Fill the eidolon with TNT and present it as a gift, it might work.
I like how you think.
|
A mix of haste, bless, prayer, align weapon, resist energy, invisibility and greater magic weapon should be enough, If you have access to the APG weapon of awe and blessing of fervor.
The fighter, archer, and the eidolon should have at least something like +18 to +20 to hit (with above buffs) and deal around 100 per round between all of them.
With surprise luck in the initiative and some flanking, you should be able to bring it down in 2 rounds.
Wait, you said nobody has power attack?
Fill the eidolon with TNT and present it as a gift, it might work.
Ice Devils are immune to fire, I'm pretty sure T.N.T does fire damage. Though in the real world it does concussive damage and gobs of it, more than is really fair to try balancing a game with.
If the GM is running it right he will summon 2 bone devils and will fly around stabbing you guys with his spear. Align your weapons and you should be able to take him down. Electricity is your friend in this fight, use it. Spend as little time as you possibly can next to this thing, it's slow effect will kill you.
Thanks for the comments. I wrote a nice long post but the board ate it :(
If you use firefox there is a plugin call Lazarus that saves your post. Even if Firefox crashes you go to add a post, right clicking bring up a menu and you will see "recover text". Click on that and everything is good again.
If not I would suggesting copying before trying to post. The evil board monster always used to get me on long post, never on the short ones.
Thanks for the comments. I wrote a nice long post but the board ate it :(
The game starts in 1.5 hours so I'll be sure to check back before then.
The main points of my long post:
Greater Teleport at will
This monster is smart enough to leave for a minute and come back if lots of buffed people enter or it takes high damage. If it really flees, the DM has a <3-on for monsters teleporting in during camp. Barring those, it may simply leave to another area in the room (assuming large enough) and make us spend precious rounds chasing him.
AC/CMD
My sunder is nerfed by the high CMD. I need a nat 20 to hit. His high AC means the cleric needs a 19 to hit (prior to buffs), the rhino is about as good as the cleric for that, a lot of the other summons require nat 20s as well.
Also, due to lava pools, I'm assuming that charging will be unusable. We weren't able to see details in the quick look last second, so this could be incorrect.
He has no way to know if you are buffed since he does not have detect magic. In any event let us know how it went. Yeah I know you are probably playing right now.
|
|
If you use firefox there is a plugin call Lazarus that saves your post. Even if Firefox crashes you go to add a post, right clicking bring up a menu and you will see "recover text". Click on that and everything is good again.
If not I would suggesting copying before trying to post. The evil board monster always used to get me on long post, never on the short ones.
If you use Chrome and it does that thing where it redirects you to the front page, you can actually just hit "back" and it'll go right back to your post. Pretty slick.
I am soo curious how this turned out lol. Like I am watching a cliffhanger on my favorite show or reading an engrossing book!
You caan do eeeet!
I am soo curious how this turned out lol. Like I am watching a cliffhanger on my favorite show or reading an engrossing book!
You caan do eeeet!
I am curious too. Players get really ingenious when the shizzle hits the fan.
Combat is over and we were successful. :)
Firstly, a quick dedicated scouting gave us some knowledge:
The room was 50 by 100 ft with a 20ft+ plus wide river of lava through the middle. (skipping minor pools, not to scale, X is ice demon, blank is entrance)
+=====================+
| |
| X |
| |
| |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| |
| |
+======= ============+
The sorceress cast fly on all members of the party, the rangers buffs with cat's grace and gravity bow, the cleric casts align weapon on the fighter, ranger, and himself. He then follows up with magic circle against evil and divine power. The sorceress (luckily, based on a suggestion above, casts Imp Invis on everyone except the fighter.
I, the summoner, dismiss my creature and summon lantern archons (lucky roll, I got 4).
The entrance above was rushed by all the characters (and archons) with the fighter bringing up the rear. This gave us the surprise round and the chance to get well into the room. Our luck kicked in and the devil rolled after all characters for initiative. First round had the sorceress casting haste, the archons using light touch (he was still flat footed, the hit rate was very good), the archer using 4 attacks (hit with 3), the cleric casts *and succeeds on* dim anchor. The fighter charges the rest of the way and hits.
I begin casting summon monster again. :) More archons!
At his turn he is actually 3/4 dead [amazing how a crappy initiative changes everything! Rule for DMs: Boss monsters need improved initiative or enough fodder that it can't be gimped prior to its turn), so he attempts to flee to let regen kick in. He moves past the fighter (drawing AOO) and jumps into the lava pool. He then casts wall of ice to delay pursuit and submerges.
The sorceress melts the wall (again, thanks for the idea, she was planning on burning all 3rd level spells on buffs. She held back for that one.), the archons cast light touch into the lava at where the devil was last seen, the fighter starts begging for fire immunity so he can chase it down, and I cast spiked pit. I didn't know how deep the lava was and I figured that even if it didn't help kill the devil, it may reveal his location if the lava level lowered.
We don't see the monster, but learn that the lava is quite deep. So I start summoning a fire elemental to find him.
We learned thereafter that something got him in the lava. It appears that one of the archon's shots hit him where he was cowering.
So, after a weeks planning, he goes down in two rounds. Completely luck I feel. The DM flat out told us that 'if this dim anchor doesn't hit' that he was teleporting away. Being flat footed was a big drop to his AC.
Thanks for your support everyone, the ideas in here really helped. In the end we had 12 lantern archons blasting the lava, completely based on this thread.
:)
(edit, tried to fix ASCI, I give up. lol)
Yay! Planning and a little luck go a Looooooong way! Gratzi on continuing your trek through a very unpleasant place it seems lol!
Thats disappointing, it doesn't sound like it was any fun for either the GM or the players.
I think the DM under estimated the player's chances so he gave them a surprise round. With them "rushing" he should have heard them coming. He would have been better off using an easier monster(s) than giving up a free round. I think the player's enjoyed it, but I doubt the DM did. The OP did take the advice given to him though, and played it well. I don't think anything should be taken away from him for that.
|
|
Using a single monster, even one with a higher CR, is a quick way to end up with a dead monster. The person running the game I'm in now threw this monster at us and it ended before more than two people really did anything, I cast Aura of Justice (it was a demon after all) and the artificer in our group shot it with his rifle. That was the entire fight, the GM decided that instead of dying it D-Doors to the next room, heals up, and tries again. Unfortunately Aura of Justice was up still. Once again it was over by round 2, even if my d20s decided they wanted nothing of that fight.
|
I've never GM'd but isn't a CR13 enemy a bit high for a party of 9th level PCs?
It's supposed to be at the upper limit of their tolerance, but that depends if the CR accurately represents the creature's abilities.
There's a lot of CRs that are based on hard and fast level-dependent abilities, which the PCs will either have (and be untroubled) or not have (and be overwhelmed).
I.e.; 'You MUST be this tall to fight this monster!'.
Take a creature that can teleport at will, like many outsiders.
You'll either have Dimensional Locks, or you won't.
If you have them, you can corner it and kill it (eventually, hopefully).
If you don't, you have to be able to one-shot it, or it simply beggars off when wounded, heals up, comes back, leaves, heals, comes back, ad nauseum.
You can increase the number of low-level PCs indefinitely, to artificially inflate the Effective Party Level, but the sad fact is, if none of them possess the ability to one-shot the creature, or block its teleportation, you're set for a long, tedious, guerilla-war, in which it whittles them all down like teenagers in a slasher film.
If the creature's CR is one of those 'You MUST be this tall to fight this monster!' types, then it assumes that the players are actually building their PCs in an efficient way, to be THAT tall (or taller!) by that level.
Multiclassing, or other builds that go for scattergun jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none versatility can do very well in some campaigns, where the PCs face off against a large number and variety of equal-level threats, but really screw with the assumptions in a standard game, where the PCs are expected to face off against the occasional opponent who challenges a party of single-classed, focussed PCs.
Awesome, I'm glad our advice was of some use to you!
bigkilla, sometimes it's fun to be curbstomped, but sometimes it's fun to be the curbstomper yourself!
Single BBEG encounters against a prepared party almost never work due to the screwed action economics.
Either the BBEG has only little impact / is forced to flee fast and thus the fight is anti-climactic and probably disappointing or the BBEG is prodigiously strong and then it usually kills one or more party members in a DPS race which feels unfair.
|
|
Thats disappointing, it doesn't sound like it was any fun for either the GM or the players.
I disagree.
If you don't know what's coming and, being unprepared for the specific fight and it's too easy -- that's not fun.
But when you have time to prepare -- and more importantly, PANIC, and the fight ends up too easy it's LOTS of fun. At every turn in initiative everyone is afraid of the TPK and is PRAYING their plans will come to fruition.
And at the end of a fight like that everyone gives a sigh of relief and realizes just how fun it was.
Except maybe the DM.
Wish I could've posted when it was useful. Oh well.
I would have had everyone summon like crazy, and gotten something to grapple it, had every other creature join the grapple, and dragged it into the lava.
But that's why my DM hates me.
Wish I could've posted when it was useful. Oh well.
I would have had everyone summon like crazy, and gotten something to grapple it, had every other creature join the grapple, and dragged it into the lava.
But that's why my DM hates me.
Ice devils are immune to fire damage. Plus, they have a fairly high CMD (36) compared to whatever creatures a 9th level caster might be able to summon.
Resist Energy Cold would have been on my suggestion list, as well as align weapon in some form or another.
Grasshopper beat me to recommending the Lantern Archons -- summon them in then have them Aid themselves with their spell like ability before hasting them. 3 attacks with an extra +1 to hit, and auto-bypassing DR while counting as good weapons is as fantastic as people have noticed.
Glad to hear it all worked out for the PCs. A lot of preparation can (and did) go a long way! Hitting the dimensional anchor was key. As someone once said (and I repeat constantly) "better lucky than good!"
Getting initiative over it was another good stroke of luck. Having all of those actions take place in advance of the BBEG really helps put the target on the defensive from the outset. Nicely done, and congrats on the overwhelming victory.
Enlarge Person, and Grapple his ass!