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How does this feat diminish in any way at any level if I may ask? The only situation where this feat has any weakness is in that it doesn't apply to full attacks and to me that is like complaining that Imp Init doesn't give you a bonus to your itit = your HD. Could it be better? Yes, but regardless it will always still make your first power attack every turn free. Mind you this bonus applies to your CMB as well, so that bull rush or disarm just got a bonus of +1-+5 depending on level.
The feat diminishes when you get your second attack. From levels 1-4, they give exactly the same bonus to hit. At 4 and 5, Furious Focus pulls ahead with +2 to hit. As soon as you get your secondary attack, Weapon Focus catches right back up.
Consider a level 6 fighter with 20 strength and a +1 Greatsword. We'll assume the only feats that modify attack and damage are Power Attack, and either Weapon Focus or Furious Focus.
His to hit bonus is going to be +11 (+6 BAB, +5 strength, +1 enhancement, +1 weapon training, -2 power attack) before applying Weapon Focus or Furious Focus.
Damage will be 22 on average (7 average weapon damage, 7 strength x1.5, 6 power attack, 1 weapon training, 1 enhancement)
With Weapon Focus, 2 attacks at +12/+7 for 22 average damage means he'll be doing 14.3 DPR with his first attack and 8.8 DPR with his second, total of 23.1.
With Furious Focus, 2 attacks at +13/+6 for 22 average damage means he'll be doing 15.4 DPR with his first attack and 7.7 with his second, total of 23.1.
So as soon as you hit level 6, the feats are equivalent again when full attacking, and Furious Focus has a slight advantage when making single attacks.
At higher levels, when you're hitting on a 2+ with your primary attack, bonuses to hit with your extra attacks far outweigh the non-bonus of having your primary attack go from needing a 2+ to hit, to still needing a 2+ to hit.
I also counter again with the fact that you are relying on being able to full attack all the time.
Fighters want to full attack as often as possible. That's the ideal situation for them.
@Dork, no I was speaking as to how I believe that Cleave is a worthwhile feat not the other way around I think you have my mistaken. And no not all are outdoors but I refuse to run an encounter in an enclosed space that doesn't at least have some cover, maneuverability, or chance for escape, those rooms have a name. They are called death traps and players should avoid them just as well.
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Dork Lord, your stance on Weapon Focus and Dodge are bizarre and unbelievable if you didn't admit that you only had that feeling because of power-creeped splats. If you look at core, a 10% increase in anything is pretty huge.
Also, I have no idea how someone could worry about a melee feat like this. It seems truly bizarre to me. Lets look at the facts. It's good in early levels like melee characters are anyway. By the time you get to late levels, the feat is practically trash just like...melee characters. How is this overpowered?
If a +1 to a single attack per round at levels 1-3 is "love", then Weapon Focus must be an all-out orgy, considering it adds +1 to all attacks with that weapon!I agree, should have a BAB 6 prerequisite.
There is no reason why a feat should cancel the attack penalty for your regular attack, and low level guys with THW don't need any love imo.A single attack which is usually the only attack you are going to do in that round? Weapon focus, that you should only take once and is a basic part of the rules? Ignoring the 2 to attack from levels 4-5?
No, I don't buy it.
I'll take your weapon focus and furious focus power attacking level 1 human fighter and raise you one halfling barbarian raging and charging with a mug of ale.
Who needs more damage at level 1. The average critter you're going to meet is going to have maybe 3 HP that means with 12 str and a greatsword you're going to one shot almost anything you come across.
This feat is a joke underwhelming. Nothing to complain about that's for sure.
I gotcha, I just don't think 10% is very good for a feat (I dislike that Dodge is only +1 to AC as well, but what are you gonna do), though wouldn't it be only 5% if you can only attack once, like levels 1-5?
Man. I'm happy about dodge.
I remember when dodge was only against ONE enemy at a time. :P
And I cannot count the times... That someone has been saved a hit due to one AC from dodge. And that was in 3.5
seems to be most benefit is for 3/4 bab characters....
also allows you to take dreadful carnage. nice feat if you're regularly droppingenemies.
cheers
I agree. I wouldn't bother with this feat on any full BAB character except the fighter, since he can retrain, without continuing on to a better feat. It would be nice on many of my rogue or bard builds. Too bad they are so hideously feat starved that I would never include this feat.
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I agree. I wouldn't bother with this feat on any full BAB character except the fighter, since he can retrain, without continuing on to a better feat. It would be nice on many of my rogue or bard builds. Too bad they are so hideously feat starved that I would never include this feat.
Yep yep, a power attacking monk could get quite a bit of mileage out of this as well.
I feel Furious Focus is actually best utilized by Cavaliers, who can make best use of the single attack it affects. Due to their mount ability, Spirited Charge, and their class bonuses, Furious Focus scales nicely with level. For example, a 10th level Human Order of the Sword Cavalier can produce this:
To hit-+28 (10 BAB +7 str +3 ench +4 Charge +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Challenge)
Damage-3d8 +123 (D8+ 19 Strength (20 Strength Cavalier, +4 belt, with Horses strength added thanks to Sword Cavalier ability) +3 Enchantment weapon, +10 Challenge, +9 Power attack)X3 (Spirited Charge)
Furious Focus in this case discounts the -3 for power attack, adding 27 damage to this hit for free.
A human cavalier can combine a lance wielded two handed, Furious Focus, and Power attack in this way from level one, making it in my opinion, a fine feat, for what it does.
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To hit-+28 (10 BAB +7 str +3 ench +4 Charge +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Challenge)
Damage-3d8 +123 (D8+ 19 Strength (20 Strength Cavalier, +4 belt, with Horses strength added thanks to Sword Cavalier ability) +3 Enchantment weapon, +10 Challenge, +9 Power attack)X3 (Spirited Charge)
Wow.... o.O The thought of that attack scares the DAYLIGHTS out of me.
Yes, it is a monstrous hit, against a CR 10 black dragon for instance, the minimum damage kills it in one shot, and the Cavalier would have to roll a 1 to miss.
I really like the way Cavaliers work, with Quick Draw and Mounted Skirimisher later on, this character can deal a horrendous hit on anything it can charge, or, if the opponent is utilizing terrain effectively, he can move and full attack with a two handed weapon.
I feel Furious Focus is actually best utilized by Cavaliers, who can make best use of the single attack it affects. Due to their mount ability, Spirited Charge,
Can Cavaliers Full Attack on a Charge? Isn`t Charge it`s own Full Round Action?
Dork Lord, your stance on Weapon Focus and Dodge are bizarre and unbelievable if you didn't admit that you only had that feeling because of power-creeped splats. If you look at core, a 10% increase in anything is pretty huge.
Heck, there's a feat in Ultimate Feats that allows me to add my Sorcerer's Charisma bonus to CL checks to overcome Spell Resistance and Dispel Magic Checks!
There's another one where you get an AoO every time someone tries to grapple you and you get to add the damage you deal to your Grapple Check.
Or the one where you can add your Int Mod to Initiative checks. Add that to a Diviner Specialist Wizard and you'll be going first every single time.
You see why a flat +1 seems unimpressive when I'm used to feats doing the above stuff?
I feel Furious Focus is actually best utilized by Cavaliers, who can make best use of the single attack it affects. Due to their mount ability, Spirited Charge,Can Cavaliers Full Attack on a Charge? Isn`t Charge it`s own Full Round Action?
No, they cannot full attack on a charge, as you rightly point out, it is a full round action, all of that damage is from a single strike. However, if charging is not an option, the APG feat Mounted Skirmisher allows them to full attack even if their mount moves, though it won't be a charge.
OK, so they can use it with Mounted Skirmisher, but not with anything connected to a Charge.
I think that`s reasonable, basically they can be very effective when mobile, whether Charging or not.
I don't really see anything in the feat that says it can only be used in a full attack. I read it as it as that power attack has to be used, and it only assists the first attack made.
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
It should work fine with a charge, as long as they use power attack in conjunction with it.
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OK, so they can use it with Mounted Skirmisher, but not with anything connected to a Charge.
I think that`s reasonable, basically they can be very effective when mobile, whether Charging or not.
No they can use it in a charge. Furious Focus works better for a character that is forced to only make one attack per turn.
You see why a flat +1 seems unimpressive when I'm used to feats doing the above stuff?
I've bolded the important part, as already explained rather well by Zurai. It's not sexy, but it gets the job done.
I use this feat for the 3.5 Power Attack (which is better than Pathfinder's IMHO).
Yes, overpowered if you do that, but I tweaked it so the 1st attack suffers half the penalty, minimum -1. So someone with BAB +15 doing Power Attack using all their BAB will suffer -7 on first attack, then -15 for the rest.
I don't really see anything in the feat that says it can only be used in a full attack. I read it as it as that power attack has to be used, and it only assists the first attack made.
It should work fine with a charge, as long as they use power attack in conjunction with it.
Got it, thanks.
I got confused after Big Stupid Fighter suggested using Mounted Skirmisher (Melee Full Attack after Mount moves) in conjunction with a Charge (mistaken wording I think, that´s not legit but has nothing to do with F.F.), and of course people were discussing Furious Focus in context of Full Attacks, i.e. it doesn`t apply after the first hit, so I took that as the ONLY context it worked. (I don`t have the book yet)Good Feat, not super great, certainly not enough to displace other Feats for non-Fighters, and Fighters will probably re-train out of it at higher level any way.
I got confused after Big Stupid Fighter suggested using Mounted Skirmisher (Melee Full Attack after Mount moves) in conjunction with a Charge (mistaken wording I think, that´s not legit but has nothing to do with F.F.), and of course people were discussing Furious Focus in context of Full Attacks, i.e. it doesn`t apply after the first hit, so I took that as the ONLY context it worked. (I don`t have the book yet)Good Feat, not super great, certainly not enough to displace other Feats for non-Fighters, and Fighters will probably re-train out of it at higher level any way.
Actually, I didn't, if you look at both of my posts, I clearly state you can do either a full attack or a charge action. Combining both would be a little ridiculous. In any case, apologies for diverting the topic, I was hoping to illustrate that the feat was not as outright useless as people were deploring.
I don't really see anything in the feat that says it can only be used in a full attack. I read it as it as that power attack has to be used, and it only assists the first attack made.
It should work fine with a charge, as long as they use power attack in conjunction with it.
Got it, thanks.
I got confused after Big Stupid Fighter suggested using Mounted Skirmisher (Melee Full Attack after Mount moves) in conjunction with a Charge (mistaken wording I think, that´s not legit but has nothing to do with F.F.), and of course people were discussing Furious Focus in context of Full Attacks, i.e. it doesn`t apply after the first hit, so I took that as the ONLY context it worked. (I don`t have the book yet)Good Feat, not super great, certainly not enough to displace other Feats for non-Fighters, and Fighters will probably re-train out of it at higher level any way.
I was just clarifying with that. I don't think it's spectacular or anything, but decent. Most of the feat options in the APG seem like they're not super great, but useful in the right circumstances, which IMO is a good sign of continuing game balance.
I think with the vital strike chain and a maneuvering fighter, this feat could be worthwhile. However, it is definitely situational, and not great for all builds.
Wait clarify... do some of you think that a character with less than BAB +6 can move and use Furious Focus? Because as I read the feat it certainly implies you're making a full attack action. At best even a low level character will only get a 5 foot step.
--Naval Vrockade
I'm not sure where you are getting that from.
Furious Focus
Benefits: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack's penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
The only two requirements for using Furious Focus are listed right there in the feat.
1. You must be wielding a weapon in two hands and2. You must be using the Power Attack feat
There's nothing in the text that necessitates someone making a full attack or having more than 1 attack available to them. All it is saying is that if you use Furious Focus, then the first attack doesn't take the Power Attack penalty, but if you make any others (including AOOs), you take the full penalty on those attacks.