|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just finished going through the Second Darkness with a Monk and...
he ended up with an AC of 47! (25 point, point buy stats to start)
Now thats not a problem if your actually done with those characters but the GM was planning on a post-SD arc to get us to 20th level, but now his AC is 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party. Also nigh un-hittable by 90+% of the monsters in the Bestiary (Balor/Pit Fiend +33 or so Ancient Dragons +33-35 or so).
I think this is not a problem. It's possible to build pretty much any class with that much AC by that level. AC specialist characters can make 50+ by level 15. Often this is only limited by the generosity the GM has with acquiring high-level magical items (even a Metropolis only has a slim chance of any specific item over 10k being available at any given time).
Of course, a monk also has epic saves as a rule which helps - and a great number of useful abilities. Whether that is or is not on par with a level 15+ cleric, druid or wizard is a different story.
Apart from that, monks tend to have a pretty hard time early on; that they can come into their own is perfectly fine.
|
|
It's possible to build pretty much any class with that much AC by that level. AC specialist characters can make 50+ by level 15.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I've seen a high level Knight (in 3.5) and his AC was just into the 40's. A high level fighter in Pathfinder might have a bit of an easier time with it (due to Armor Mastery) but even so 50? I just don't see it.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mithril Full plate +5 AC 14 (max dex +3) = 17
Shield +5 AC = 7
Ring AC +5 (deflection)
Amulet Natural Armor +5
Total AC = 44 (accesible for all characters with heavy armor competence. At high level, of course)
Add these "settings" to anyone Paladin Smiting with Cha+7....AC 51...
|
|
Mithril Full plate +5 AC 14 (max dex +3) = 17
Shield +5 AC = 7
Ring AC +5 (deflection)
Amulet Natural Armor +5Total AC = 44 (accesible for all characters with heavy armor competence. At high level, of course)
Add these "settings" to anyone Paladin Smiting with Cha+7....AC 51...
OK, I guess it's not so difficult. But still that is pretty much un-hittable by MOST monsters (and NPC's), my Monk can't reliably generate attacks like that.
OK, I guess it's not so difficult. But still that is pretty much un-hittable by MOST monsters (and NPC's), my Monk can't reliably generate attacks like that.
First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
Do you get high AC at the cost of attack and damage? It can happen with the Monk, it has a lot of defensive stuff.
I would decrease my Dexterity or Wisdom and increase my Strength, a friend that plays a Monk has got this problem and he finally decided to increase his offensive abilities.
|
|
First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
Ok, so the monster just killed the rest of my party, he still can't hit me 75% of the time, and I can still just run away. The point was up until the very end of the adventure path all our characters were fairly balanced, then my AC went 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party, now monsters that can hit me reliably (ATK +37 or so) hit everyone else in the party EVERY SINGLE TIME. (well except 1's)
|
|
Do you get high AC at the cost of attack and damage? It can happen with the Monk, it has a lot of defensive stuff.
I would decrease my Dexterity or Wisdom and increase my Strength, a friend that plays a Monk has got this problem and he finally decided to increase his offensive abilities.
Not so much, no. I don't deal damage like our fighter (elven curve blades rock BTW) but I'm no sluch when it comes to combat (excpet if the monster has DR, cause I've never got the right type)
|
Mithril Full plate +5 AC 14 (max dex +3) = 17
Shield +5 AC = 7
Ring AC +5 (deflection)
Amulet Natural Armor +5Total AC = 44 (accesible for all characters with heavy armor competence. At high level, of course)
Add these "settings" to anyone Paladin Smiting with Cha+7....AC 51...
I apologize for butting in, but 17+7+5+5 equals 34
D&D always has and probably always will have the tendency to break down at very high levels unless the GM is wary.
This is the reason why adventure paths end at Level 15-16.
So, no, Monks are not broken, everyone else can do it as well with the right items and some GM love. The difference is that a Wizard with an AC of 40+ can actually melt faces, while a monk can't.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I apologize for butting in, but 17+7+5+5 equals 34
He, he, when I read the original post I thought to myself "how many people will read that and forget that everyone starts at AC10".
|
|
D&D always has and probably always will have the tendency to break down at very high levels unless the GM is wary.
This is the reason why adventure paths end at Level 15-16.
So, no, Monks are not broken, everyone else can do it as well with the right items and some GM love. The difference is that a Wizard with an AC of 40+ can actually melt faces, while a monk can't.
It's not that I can't 'melt faces' I can totally make myself usefull in a fight (especially against drow!!) it's just that suddenly I can't adventure with the rest of my party anymore.
Mithril Full plate +5 AC 14 (max dex +3) = 17
Shield +5 AC = 7
Ring AC +5 (deflection)
Amulet Natural Armor +5Total AC = 44 (accesible for all characters with heavy armor competence. At high level, of course)
Add these "settings" to anyone Paladin Smiting with Cha+7....AC 51...
Just to point out, the Paladin smiting in the example above can reach an AC of 'only' 46 - Smiting gives a Deflection bonus to AC, which overlaps (does not stack with) the Deflection Bonus of the Ring.
However, we could add a couple of bonuses (without recurring to 'custom' items):
Dodge Feat (+1 Dodge AC)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 Insight AC)
A +5 Defending Weapon can divert some of its Enhancement bonuses to AC (+1/+5 AC, unnamed bonus - the description specifically says 'stacks with all others')
So, a 'turtling' character (Defending +5 to AC) can reach an AC of 51. (AC 52 if he uses a +5 Tower Shield instead of a +5 Heavy Shield - the Max Dex +2 from the Tower Shield is lower than the Max Dex +3 granted by the Mithral Full Plate).
Add the higher Max Dex bonus of a Fighter with Armor Training 4 (using a Heavy Shield, since the Armor Training doesn't work with Shields - at least, by RAW it seems so - and so a Tower Shield is more of a hindrance) and we add a possible +4 to the AC 51 above = AC 55 when turtling with a Defending Weapon. AC 50 at full throttle power.
Even the Tarrasque needs a 13+ to hit such a character (with AC 50; a 18+ when the Fighter is turtling) - a 20 if using Power Attack (BaB +30 means -8 hit/+16 damage with Primary attacks, +8 damage with Secondary attacks)...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@overdark:
You'll be happy to hear that the brass knuckles (APG) allow you to use monk unarmed damage progression, but still are an enchantable weapon. So you can get all the DR bypassing that everybody else has. But doesn't combo with the amulet of mighty-fists. Still good :)
It's not that I can't 'melt faces' I can totally make myself usefull in a fight (especially against drow!!) it's just that suddenly I can't adventure with the rest of my party anymore.
As we showed already that this can be true for anyone you should change the topic to "D&D can be broken at high levels".
|
|
@overdark:
You'll be happy to hear that the brass knuckles (APG) allow you to use monk unarmed damage progression, but still are an enchantable weapon. So you can get all the DR bypassing that everybody else has. But doesn't combo with the amulet of mighty-fists. Still good :)
No, not really. It's the silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil thing that really gets me. So I guess I could carry 5 or 6 pairs of brass knuckles around but really...
I don't see the problem. By 15th level most of the party should have access to abilities that offset bad guys. Wizards will have blur plus displacement plus greater invisibility plus fly plus mirror image amongst other things.
While rogues and bards might not keep up in the defensive sense, they should be getting magic help from their friends.
The point was up until the very end of the adventure path all our characters were fairly balanced, then my AC went 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party, now monsters that can hit me reliably (ATK +37 or so) hit everyone else in the party EVERY SINGLE TIME. (well except 1's)
I can't imagine how you can gain such a HUGE bonus to AC after one adventure. Did the DM hold the treasure for 5 levels? :O
If the problem is too much AC, modify the treasure, decrease the AC from defensive magic items and use the money to get better offensive items.
Do you have a Belt of Dex and Str +6? Change it for a belt of Con and Str +6.
You may also change your Ability Scores.
You can also use your AC to help the party: take the first Attack of Opportunity, get behind the enemy, etc..
It can also happen with Fighters and other charactes. There are guys with Tower Shields. Or fighters that take Combat Expertise and ALWAYS use it, getting more AC but decreasing the attack bonus. There are 7th level Wizards that use their 4th spell level slots to memorize teleport, Stoneskin and Dimension Door.
3.5 is a game that allows ultra-defensive characters.
However the solution is always the same.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, not really. It's the silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil thing that really gets me. So I guess I could carry 5 or 6 pairs of brass knuckles around but really...@overdark:
You'll be happy to hear that the brass knuckles (APG) allow you to use monk unarmed damage progression, but still are an enchantable weapon. So you can get all the DR bypassing that everybody else has. But doesn't combo with the amulet of mighty-fists. Still good :)
Do you know that in Pathfinder, higher weapon enchantments (+3 on) bypass DR silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil ? The only DR that stops a +5 weapon is /- and weird DRs such as /vorpal.
AC isn't even really useful at high levels; and we're talking about level 20, the monk is the least threat of the party. 47 seems a bit high, but even so, AC is rarely a factor in keeping you alive at that point (hp, saves, and proper magic items/spells do far more).
I would give this a disagree. A character that can only be hit by natural 20s is much like a level 2 character in fullplate and shield that the little goblins quite simply cannot hit. Sure, CR 18 enemies have many more options available to them; but the monk is uniquely qualified in having excellent defensive abilities on all fronts.
The weakest aspect of the monk would be that he doesn't have oppressively high saves - in other words it *is* possible to get that spell to land around 30% of the time; as opposed to attacks which only land 5% of the time. On the other hand - CR18 monsters tend to have many attacks, so that would offset the maths a bit.
|
|
Do you know that in Pathfinder, higher weapon enchantments (+3 on) bypass DR silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil ? The only DR that stops a +5 weapon is /- and weird DRs such as /vorpal.No, not really. It's the silver/adamantine/cold iron/good/evil thing that really gets me. So I guess I could carry 5 or 6 pairs of brass knuckles around but really...@overdark:
You'll be happy to hear that the brass knuckles (APG) allow you to use monk unarmed damage progression, but still are an enchantable weapon. So you can get all the DR bypassing that everybody else has. But doesn't combo with the amulet of mighty-fists. Still good :)
I totally forgot about that. (we've just realized that you take a -2 to AC for Cleave). Some of the changes in Pathfinder really sneak up on you.
|
|
The point was up until the very end of the adventure path all our characters were fairly balanced, then my AC went 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party, now monsters that can hit me reliably (ATK +37 or so) hit everyone else in the party EVERY SINGLE TIME. (well except 1's)I can't imagine how you can gain such a HUGE bonus to AC after one adventure. Did the DM hold the treasure for 5 levels? :O
If the problem is too much AC, modify the treasure, decrease the AC from defensive magic items and use the money to get better offensive items.
Do you have a Belt of Dex and Str +6? Change it for a belt of Con and Str +6.
You may also change your Ability Scores.
You can also use your AC to help the party: take the first Attack of Opportunity, get behind the enemy, etc..It can also happen with Fighters and other charactes. There are guys with Tower Shields. Or fighters that take Combat Expertise and ALWAYS use it, getting more AC but decreasing the attack bonus. There are 7th level Wizards that use their 4th spell level slots to memorize teleport, Stoneskin and Dimension Door.
3.5 is a game that allows ultra-defensive characters.However the solution is always the same.
+5 Wis from 'special' bonuses (see spoiler above) and then I bought a +6 Wis item. I have a +4 Str/Dex/Con belt. The 47 AC is without my Combat Expertise (+3 [50]) or Ki Bonus (+4 [54]).
Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Also a 25 point buy is quite powerful. I gave my party a 17 point buy and they are doing well in all modules so far.
(all good saves, +10 from Wis)
What does that mean? Wis only adds to Willsave?
One of the wonderful (??) things of the monk is that you can build it less effective as a damage dealer, but nigh-unkillable. What's the deal?
15th level, and no because I have SR (although it's only 25) and I'd (probably) make my save (all good saves, +10 from Wis), then I'd trip, stun, and kung-fu his brains out.Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Ha, as if I would be in the same room. I <3 Scrying :)
|
|
Ha, as if I would be in the same room. I <3 Scrying :)15th level, and no because I have SR (although it's only 25) and I'd (probably) make my save (all good saves, +10 from Wis), then I'd trip, stun, and kung-fu his brains out.Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Can't cast wish through a scry spell can you. Now project image i'll believe.
Also a 25 point buy is quite powerful. I gave my party a 17 point buy and they are doing well in all modules so far.
Yeah. I'm reading Level 15+, campaign gave out specific items that boost AC, and 25 point buy--at 25 point buy, low level characters have heroic traits; at high levels they are going to be godlike.
This doesn't mean 25 point buy is wrong (because I know someone is somehow going to misconstrue this as an attack on high point buys), but it DOES mean that YOU ARE VERY POWERFUL at high levels with this point buy (it's called "Epic" point buy for a reason). Especially for a monk if you're maxing out both Dex and Wisdom.
Your party is not CR 15 but more likely CR 18. Your GM will need to adjust her encounters accordingly. An appropriate encounter would be something like an Ancient Blue Dragon, not an Ancient White Dragon (and tactics would be used would include things like battlefield control, which an Ancient Blue has tons of, not just trying to hit the monk outright). Use lower level monsters but ones with high to hit bonuses--sure an Iron Golem only has a 10% chance of hitting that monk, but in a small space with let's say, 4 Iron Golems with the Advanced Template wailing on you, one of them probably will hit, and it will hurt. I would also challenge the party with fewer monsters and more creatures and NPCs with class levels, who might be more likely to have equivalently challenging to-hit bonuses and armor classes.
Anyway, I don't see this as a problem with the monk class specifically--there are a lot of specific circumstances here that are adding to the "brokenness," only part of which is the class itself (and those aspects are mitigated by the class's weaknesses).
Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Actually a 15th level wizard can counter your monk.
Maze. autohit no save. Puts the monk out of action for a significant period of time.
1. Orject image- another excellent idea :)
2. Maze... forgot about that one!!
Any class can be made to look broken. If you continue the character and you are dominating combat, then the GM can always give goodies to the others to balance things, and up the CR or have something happen that destroys an extra bonus of yours making it even. Personally i think that while your ac is good, at high levels with damage reduction, you might have dominating combat, and the other party members will continue to have fun and it wont be an issue
Will save to resist Wish (right?)(all good saves, +10 from Wis)What does that mean? Wis only adds to Willsave?
Wish can copy any sor/wiz spell of 8th level or lower, so it can target whatever save it wishes to (bad pun). Or copy a spell that doesn't allow for a save, or has an effect on a successful one.
Maybe the system itself is broken, and not the Monk class...
Wizard Vs. Monk?
Seriously?
AC is just one of many aspects of the game that gets stretched at the high levels. There is only so much room on the D20 between auto-fail and auto-success. Once the spread between characters reaches about 10, things start to get weird. How is the cleric going to make a DC 30 reflex save, yet the rogue can't fail without a natural 1.
I don't think you can fix this breakdown without changing the game a little. My personal preference is to limit ability score enhancements (and perhaps point buy as well), but this is unappealing to many.
The other idea is just to make up for it in volume. A 10 headed hydra has at least a %50 chance to hit with a full attack no matter what your AC.
|
|
Please post your full build.
I don't see how this is necessary but here ya go...(you said full)
Ryu Hayabusa (Human Monk) Traits: Into Enemy Territory, Ease of Faith. Starting Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 12. Favored Class Bonus: +1 HP (all levels)1st level: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes
2nd: Improved Grapple
3rd: Defensive Combat Training
4th: +1 Str
5th: Dodge
6th: Improved Trip
7th: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
8th: +1 Dex
9th: Greater Trip
10th: Medusa's Wrath
11th: One Finger (Pathfinder Campaign Setting pg. 219)
12th: +1 Wis
13th: Greater Grapple
14th: Spring Attack
15th: Ki Throw (APG pg 164), +5 Wis
I can't give a full rundown on all my items, but here's the highlights.
Monk's robe, +8 bracers of AC, +3 prot. ring, +4 ki straps (amulet of mighty fists different slot), +4 belt (Str/Dex/Con), +6 Wis headband, +5 amulet of natural armor, ring of sustenance.
|
|
Wish can copy any sor/wiz spell of 8th level or lower, so it can target whatever save it wishes to (bad pun). Or copy a spell that doesn't allow for a save, or has an effect on a successful one.Will save to resist Wish (right?)(all good saves, +10 from Wis)What does that mean? Wis only adds to Willsave?
But if he's copying plane shift (or some other teleportation type effect) it's still gonna be a Will save.
|
|
Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Actually a 15th level wizard can counter your monk.
Maze. autohit no save. Puts the monk out of action for a significant period of time.
1. Orject image- another excellent idea :)
2. Maze... forgot about that one!!Other spells which are good if not totally infallible counters.
Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity
Maze (SR), Wall of Force (abundant step), reverse gravity (slow fall, abundant step)
OK, I guess it's not so difficult. But still that is pretty much un-hittable by MOST monsters (and NPC's), my Monk can't reliably generate attacks like that.First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
@ overdark:I was going to say the same thing. They are basically the most useless class. You search for some threads around here and you will see the issues people have with them
I can't give a full rundown on all my items, but here's the highlights.
Monk's robe, +8 bracers of AC, +3 prot. ring, +4 ki straps (amulet of mighty fists different slot), +4 belt (Str/Dex/Con), +6 Wis headband, +5 amulet of natural armor, ring of sustenance.
This could be a big part of the problem. You use a custom item that is reasonable and understandable, but it's not core and will change the result.
Also, your wealth by level should be about 240 000 - yours is up in 373 000, and you said you have more items apart from this.
EDIT: If you built it core only and following the WBL guidlines, you'd have to drop the amulet of natural armor (since you NEED the mighty fists), as well as an additional 123k items. I'd say the tome as well as having bracers of armor +5 and a headband +4 instead.
This would drop your AC by 10-11 points though. So core, your AC isn't that impressive at all.
Ok, so the monster just killed the rest of my party, he still can't hit me 75% of the time, and I can still just run away. The point was up until the very end of the adventure path all our characters were fairly balanced, then my AC went 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party, now monsters that can hit me reliably (ATK +37 or so) hit everyone else in the party EVERY SINGLE TIME. (well except 1's)First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
Why are you assuming you can just run? I thought linnorms could fly which is normally faster than a monk can run. The other point is that if all the monk can contribute is running away it just shows how useless it is.
A monk's *primary* power at higher levels is being undefeatable in many ways. You got a campaign end super-boost, so as someone pointed out, you're probably as powerful as a character a couple levels higher.
As has been pointed out, there are still plenty of things that can affect you, though not all of it will affect you or take you out, nor should anything be automatic. As you said, you deal less damage than your fighter (who also probably has more hp), but are less vulnerable.
Run with it! (though let your non-monk speed'd party members catch up :)
That said, are you sure your wisdom is correct? You said 16 start, +1 at 12th, +5 at 15th (+2 and +3), and +6 item = 28. Was that before your human bonus?
Edit: The off-spot Mighty Fists item (ki straps) only saves him 25K, not that big an issue.