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"As a whole, Asmodeus’s church has few organized groups
of soldiers, mainly because in most lands their religion
is forbidden and a large, open group attracts too much
attention. Even in many evil countries, where worship
of the Prince of Darkness is openly allowed, tyrannical
militaries and despotic laws reduce the need or impetus
to create special groups in Asmodeus’s name. However,
monastic orders aligned with Hell are not that unusual;
the rigid discipline and isolated community of such an
organization are complementary to the lawful-minded
and often-persecuted Asmodean faith.
Paladins also have a strange relationship with the
Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin
serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen.
Asmodeus is primarily a deity of law, with evil being
incidental to his concept of law. Very rarely, Asmodeus
allows a true paladin to serve him, using him as a tool in
lands where a more traditional priest would be hunted.
The paladin’s duties are always very carefully explained and
restricted to avoid conflicts that result in evil thoughts
or actions; in effect, the paladin is a champion of contracts
and law, who happens to be good. This is possible for three
reasons: One, Asmodeus can have clerics who are lawful
neutral rather than lawful evil; these clerics walk a fine
line that avoids outright evil while still promoting order,
and therefore in theory a paladin can do the same. Two,
the nature of evil does not require one to always be evil;
an evil person who doesn’t rob, murder, or torture at every
opportunity is not at risk of becoming less evil—in fact,
an evil person can perform good acts every day, making
it entirely possible (though exceedingly rare) for a servant
of Asmodeus to be good, having never done an evil act.
Three, the deceptions of Asmodeus are subtle and deft,
and it’s potentially possible for a paladin to believe his
efforts and the orderly god’s will serve a greater good,
though ultimately he serves nothing more than the god of
tyranny’s cruel agendas.
Such paladins sometimes see themselves as reformers
of their church, trying to convince others that it is
possible to serve the ultimate law and still be a good
person. Religious scholars speculate that these paladins
are actually granted powers by another deity (typically
Iomedae or Sarenrae) through some complex arrangement
with the Prince of Darkness. However, it is possible that
having a good paladin in his service benefits his plans in
the long run, and that these enigmatic individuals really
are serving Asmodeus. Their path is much more difficult
than other paladins, and only those lucky enough to
die young avoid falling from grace—though what fate
their souls face in the afterlife remains a matter of great
theological debate."
Qouted from Mother of Flies. And please, point out where it is explicitly stated it is not canon.
Jared that whole thing has been ruled an Error, so no it is not canon. It was a production mistake and labeled such. It is not valid in this topic.
You lost that fight let it go, he does not and can not have paladins.
Karui Kage, We know Chaotic good gods can not have paladin{Cayden}, we know know evil gods can not have paladins, at lest Lawful evil anyhow. We also know for a fact all gods from the CS that have paladins are with in one step.
So while it does not come out and state it, it is the rule that paizo seem to use. We also know the reason it was not listed is James has said many times now it should not need to be listed.
You must be LG, you must stick to your code..those fact limit your devotion to any god to far from your AL or your code. Past one step and your in the grey iffy area of "No longer really LG if it stick to the teachings of my god"
So while it is not listed, they didn't think it needed to be listed, it's kinda common sense.
Edit: Guys we are off topic, if you have a canon list of a paladin god, then list it. And no Asmodeus does not count, he was an error. But any other god ya can find is fine. As that was the topic of the thread anyhow.
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Jared that whole thing has been ruled an Error, so no it is not canon. It was a production mistake and labeled such. It is not valid in this topic.
You lost that fight let it go, he does not and can not have paladins.
Karui Kage, We know Chaotic good gods can not have paladin{Cayden}, we know know evil gods can not have paladins, at lest Lawful evil anyhow. We also know for a fact all gods from the CS that have paladins are with in one step.
So while it does not come out and state it, it is the rule that paizo seem to use. We also know the reason it was not listed is James has said many times now it should not need to be listed.
You must be LG, you must stick to your code..those fact limit your devotion to any god to far from your AL or your code. Past one step and your in the grey iffy area of "No longer really LG if it stick to the teachings of my god"
So while it is not listed, they didn't think it needed to be listed, it's kinda common sense.
Edit: Guys we are off topic, if you have a canon list of a paladin god, then list it. And no Asmodeus does not count, he was an error. But any other god ya can find is fine. As that was the topic of the thread anyhow.
If it's an error, can you please link the thread this ruling was made?
You where in that thread as well. But for you I shall repost it
Technically, it's a DEVELOPMENT error and not an editing error that the bit about paladins of Asmodeous slipped through into print. The whole "what is Lawful Good" and "what's okay to do as a paladin" scene is WAY too complicated as it stands without us confusing things more by saying a paladin can serve a lawful evil deity. It should have been changed before it saw print, but it slipped through.
So yes it was an error and does not count for this topic.
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You where in that thread as well. But for you I shall repost it
So yes it was an error and does not count for this topic.Technically, it's a DEVELOPMENT error and not an editing error that the bit about paladins of Asmodeous slipped through into print. The whole "what is Lawful Good" and "what's okay to do as a paladin" scene is WAY too complicated as it stands without us confusing things more by saying a paladin can serve a lawful evil deity. It should have been changed before it saw print, but it slipped through.
+1.
This has been brought up in other threads as well.
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Karui Kage, We know Chaotic good gods can not have paladin{Cayden}, we know know evil gods can not have paladins, at lest Lawful evil anyhow. We also know for a fact all gods from the CS that have paladins are with in one step.So while it does not come out and state it, it is the rule that paizo seem to use. We also know the reason it was not listed is James has said many times now it should not need to be listed.
You must be LG, you must stick to your code..those fact limit your devotion to any god to far from your AL or your code. Past one step and your in the grey iffy area of "No longer really LG if it stick to the teachings of my god"
So while it is not listed, they didn't think it needed to be listed, it's kinda common sense.
Again, you keep saying this. Where are you getting your information from? Quote me something, anything (besides the Paladin's code, I can see that too and it doesn't say anything about how serving a "Chaotic Good" god makes you fall).
Frankly, there is no canon list of Paladin gods. That's my issue, and the only reason I stepped in here. It seems like you think that this "Chaotic gods not allowed" and "one step rule" are official, and they aren't. At least, not in any source I can find them. Please, enlighten me.
Right now your only argument is "The God is Chaotic and would conflict with the Paladin's interests" is BS. People in the world don't necessarily KNOW what their god's alignment is. A character could grow up his whole life seeing Cayden Cailean as this heroic adventurer and want to emulate him, though maybe he ends up being a bit more honor bound and orderly then CC was himself.
The other thing you keep assuming. Paladins don't have to really be part of the Church. Sure, they get their powers from the gods, but I can't find where it says they need to even buy the holy book of their deity.
I've quoted a number of sources so far to back up my own arguments. Where are yours? (Besides the Asmodeus thing, I said I dropped that anyhow)
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This is a quote from James Jacobs. Take of this what you will.
Here is the quote:
"There's no rule for this because there shouldn't NEED to be a rule.
Paladins MUST be lawful good.
In order to worship a deity, you need to follow that deity's teachings and philosophies and do things that would make that deity proud.
If you don't worship a lawful good deity, you are increasingly doing things to impress your deity that are at odds with being a paladin.
Once an axis of your alignment drifts more than one step away (law to chaos or good to evil), maintaining a paladin's code and following a deity's philosophy and teachings become pretty much impossible to maintain for long. And without long-term maintenance, that faith simply cannot hold the order together.
To be devout, you need to adhere closely to your deity's alignment. To be a paladin, you need to be lawful good. That pretty much sums it up, as far as I can tell.
On Golarion, the following deities in particular are established in game canon as having paladin orders: Erastil, Iomedae, Torage, Sarenrae, Abadar. I suspect that both Shelyn and Irori have a few paladins worshiping them as well, but they don't have as many as the other five. There are no paladins serving any of the other deities."
Sigh, yes we do have a canon list, it's in the setting book, sure it's 3.5 but is in the setting book. The we have a little book called gods and magic which lists every class every god has within the church.
We know for a fact every single god that has paladins is with in one step. We know for a fact at lest one CG god can not have them due to him having both a PRC to cover it and the creative director stating he does not and can not have them.
Paizo uses one step. Every thing published is one step. You might not like it but that is what they use.
Now the official list is
Adadar=LN
Erastil=LG
Iomeda=LG
Irori=LN
Serenrae=NG
Shelyn=NG
Torag=LG
If you have a source for a god, that is not listed, please list it.
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I generally game with people I like, so if one of them came up to me and said, "I want to play a LG Paladin that loathes the undead, and the big anti-undead crusader of Golarion seems to be Pharasma, can I do that?" I'd be inclined to say yes.
Even if there *was* an explicit rule against it, if it's not a balance issue, and it doesn't mess up the flavor of the setting, I'm fine with it.
But I can understand that such a character might not be allowed in a PFS game, depending on what sort of house rules the GM is using about who Paladins can or cannot consider their favoritest diety.
I'd also be willing to accept a Druid of Nethys, focused on the magic of the natural world, particularly in a place like Osirion or Mwangi, where the 'natural world' includes a lot of lost magical sites, or an 'Urban Ranger' of Abadar, so long as these ideas were presented with some thought to them, and not, 'Hey, what's the last god one would expect to grant a Ranger a bunch of divine woodsy spells?'
If it's not a rule, I generally won't make it up just to stymie player creativity. I'm as fond of a good GM power-trip as anyone, but at the end of the day, the players should probably have some fun, too.
I can't believe that this hasn't been brought up, but the whole business with having paladins of Asmodeus goes right back to the business that noted Christian theologian C.S. Lewis did in The Last Battle where the kids find the noble Saracen jihadi analogue who is basically a paladin except he worships Tash, vulture-headed multi-armed god of evil nasty badness. Except of course the Saracen paladin thinks that Tash is the god of goodness, peace, and all things nice and paladiny.
Enter Aslan, the Jesus allegory lion, who the Saracen paladin was raised to think of as the god of icky badness. Aslan explains that Tash is actually the god of icky badness while Aslan is the god of yummy goodness, and any yummy goodness that gets done in Tash's name gets sent to Aslan instead, and any icky badness done in Aslan's name gets sent to Tash. So, short explanation, the Saracen paladin has been worshipping Aslan all along.
The Saracen paladin sort of mewls like a kitten to hear this, since he's been taught that talking lions are evil incarnate rather than Jesus allegories, but he's sworn himself to uphold goodness, so ends up swearing fealty to Aslan properly before going offstage to get therapy.
Now, swap in Asmodeus for Tash and Iomedae for Aslan and we have the same scene play out in Golarion.
It's easy enough to see why this would be a development error as it makes for easy confusion but that said, it's perfectly sound theology (or as sound as any theology is) for this to be the way things work. You can have Asmodean heretics who are actually worshipping Iomedae and you can have Iomedaen heretics who are actually worshipping Asmodeus. These will probably never be a part of an official product again, but for a home game where people can grok C.S. Lewis's theology?
Except it's RAW. I don't care what he posts about it.
Oh, and if he wants to play takesy-backsies, give my summoner back his 24 hour eidolon.
Eh whiner gonna whine, it is not RAW, by RAW he auto falls as he broke his code, unless he does not have the standard LG paladin code or is not A LG paladin.
But yes, it was a mistake, let it go man. If you want evil or non LG paladins or ones with odd twisted gods who worship demons or devils helps damn souls to hell or what ever, knock yourself our
But the thing was a mistake and has been called that oh 4 or 5 times now. Errors happen in books, most folks spotted this one as an error right away and it has been confirmed to be an error.
And yet again this is not on topic, he does not have paladins, he does not count for this topic
Does anyone have a god not already listed? That is the topic after all. If any one has a published paladin of a god not listed in core, or having a god more then one step away, please post it. this other stuff is not on topic.
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You where in that thread as well. But for you I shall repost it
So yes it was an error and does not count for this topic.Technically, it's a DEVELOPMENT error and not an editing error that the bit about paladins of Asmodeous slipped through into print. The whole "what is Lawful Good" and "what's okay to do as a paladin" scene is WAY too complicated as it stands without us confusing things more by saying a paladin can serve a lawful evil deity. It should have been changed before it saw print, but it slipped through.
Too bad they "ruled this out" so fast, as I thought it would make for extremely cool roleplay opportunities. What if Asmodeus' long-term plan is to ascend to the celestial planes? (i.e. isn't he a fallen angel or something? would make sense to me that part of his subconscious is trying to get back there and thus grants powers to pallies! :) )
I do not think he is fallen at all. He is as he was. He has always been a devil as far as I can tell
He is one of the older gods, one of the first as far as I can find, no talk of him ever having been an angle.
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Except it's RAW. I don't care what he posts about it.
Oh, and if he wants to play takesy-backsies, give my summoner back his 24 hour eidolon.
Eh whiner gonna whine, it is not RAW, by RAW he auto falls as he broke his code, unless he does not have the standard LG paladin code or is not A LG paladin.
But yes, it was a mistake, let it go man. If you want evil or non LG paladins or ones with odd twisted gods who worship demons or devils helps damn souls to hell or what ever, knock yourself our
But the thing was a mistake and has been called that oh 4 or 5 times now. Errors happen in books, most folks spotted this one as an error right away and it has been confirmed to be an error.
And yet again this is not on topic, he does not have paladins, he does not count for this topic
Does anyone have a god not already listed? That is the topic after all. If any one has a published paladin of a god not listed in core, or having a god more then one step away, please post it. this other stuff is not on topic.
So explain to me, please HOW THE F$@% DOES HE BREAK HIS CODE?!? Your not using RAW, your using your opinion. According to RAW, a Paladin can worship a God of any alignment. What James Jacobs wants and what is actually IN THE RULES are two completely different things.
That's it, Seeker. You. Are. Wrong. The rules say your wrong, your wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Your OPINION is what you are voicing, and you simply won't hear of anything else.
The only reason they went back on it was because you were b@*%@ing so f~#+ing hard about it. "YA know, the paladin falls YA know". And that "ya" s~$! has got to f+#~ing stop.
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I do not think he is fallen at all. He is as he was. He has always been a devil as far as I can tell
He is one of the older gods, one of the first as far as I can find, no talk of him ever having been an angle.
Hmmm... I must be confusing Golarion Asmodeus with some of the stuff I read back in the 3.5 wotc book of devils...
But to come back on topic, the quoted sentence from James pretty much settles this... (i.e. "Erastil, Iomedae, Torage, Sarenrae, Abadar. I suspect that both Shelyn and Irori have a few paladins worshiping them as well, but they don't have as many as the other five. There are no paladins serving any of the other deities.")
My personal wishes however would have been that non-clerics don't have to abide by this rule... (I'm assuming the one step rule is canon for clerics yes?) This whole one-step for clerics and pallies, in the Forgotten Realms, ended up being expanded to rangers and druids (i.e. a list of "nature" gods), which bloody made everything impossible to manage and keep track of...
See Iroi is the one who opens up any one step god really
The setting lists him as having paladins, yet Gods and magic does not list him having any orders. So he has them but they are a handful it seems. Which as the other gods do not even have he worshiper numbers of the main gods, kinda points to if they have them they prob would not have a lot.
All of this is guess work outside those I listed above which we know have paladins.
And what sentence by james?
Whine, whine, tantrum, hissy fit, whine
For you in spoiler, please stay on topic or start your on thread, this is old and getting childish man
Paladins code
*Requires that she respect legitimate authority,
*Act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
*help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends),
*punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
3 and 4 you brake by worshiping evil, say you do not all you want, you in fact do you have helped to harm others and refused to punish those that hurt the innocent, in fact your helping them.
You have a point. Sorry failed my will save there
What James Jacobs wants and what is actually IN THE RULES are two completely different things.
Wrong. James Jacobs as Editor-in-Chief, as well as Jason Bulmahn as Lead Designer, plus probably Sean and Erik and Vic, ARE the rules. And if one of them says something was done incorrectly and posts in these forums saying so and saying what is the correct and official version, then that is THE RULES.
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Whine, whine, tantrum, hissy fit, whineFor you in spoiler, please stay on topic or start your on thread, this is old and getting childish man
Paladins code
** spoiler omitted **
I really don't see where worshipping Asmodeus causes harm to others. There is no need to harm people. Read the write up. He can kill other worshippers of Asmodeus-because it shows a)he's stronger than they are and b)he's making a statement to Asmodeus that his nicer way of doing things is best. Depending on the nature of the relationship between worshippers and deities, he may actually have a chance of converting him to...well, probably LN, but still.
Asmodeus, being a god and all, is a legitimate authority. Who actually uphold his bargains...to the letter. So honesty and integrity in a Paladin isn't something he'd necessarily dislike. And if your good deeds are ultimately put to bad ends, well, you aren't liable for what other people do.
Would a Paladin fall for killing demons? Ultimately, he's helping out Asmodeus. Or Devils? Ultimately, he's helping out the Abyss. I just don't see how a Paladin autofalls for worshipping Asmodeus.
And Paladins can associate with evil people for the greater good. Maybe he really needs to kill demons, since they are a bigger threat to the material plane. As long as a Paladin does not violate his code while doing it, he'll be fine.
Oh, and just FYI, tricking a paladin to do good things to an evil end doesn't make them fall. They have to willfully and knowingly break their vow to fall.
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Wrong. James Jacobs as Editor-in-Chief, as well as Jason Bulmahn as Lead Designer, plus probably Sean and Erik and Vic, ARE the rules. And if one of them says something was done incorrectly and posts in these forums saying so and saying what is the correct and official version, then that is THE RULES.
What James Jacobs wants and what is actually IN THE RULES are two completely different things.
Then put that into an errata.
Guys ignore him, he is trolling and off topic
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Guys ignore him, he is trolling and off topic
I am neither trolling nor off topic. The topic was which gods have Paladins. Paladins can worship any god they please.
And disagreeing with you doesn't make me a troll. My arguments are not something you can dismiss, you just don't want to have to listen to them.
oh smurf it already.
you want ot play it that way, its your game, play it as such.
argue with the dm/gm at the table.
but for now turn out the lights, the party's over.
so thank you and good night.
oh and what james said is law.
nice day to you all.
Iomedae's blessings to you
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Guys ignore him, he is trolling and off topicI am neither trolling nor off topic. The topic was which gods have Paladins. Paladins can worship any god they please.
And disagreeing with you doesn't make me a troll. My arguments are not something you can dismiss, you just don't want to have to listen to them.
OP here, I made the topic... The topic was what Gods in Golarion Canon have Paladins.
In Golarion Canon Paladins can't worship any god, so your off topic.
Asmodeus as a God with Paladins was taken out of Canon, so you are off topic.
Your in luck though, in your own home game you can do anything you want, so in your game You can have paladins worship any God you want.
The actual purpose of the OP was for Canon because it came up in my PFS game when a Paladin's God was Irori, and I was not sure if that followed canon, which you need to do when ever possible on PFS, I say whenever possible because Canon of course does not cover everything, But I am in luck it does cover this!
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Guys ignore him, he is trolling and off topicI am neither trolling nor off topic. The topic was which gods have Paladins. Paladins can worship any god they please.
And disagreeing with you doesn't make me a troll. My arguments are not something you can dismiss, you just don't want to have to listen to them.
OP here, I made the topic... The topic was what Gods in Golarion Canon have Paladins.
In Golarion Canon Paladins can't worship any god, so your off topic.
Asmodeus as a God with Paladins was taken out of Canon, so you are off topic.
Your in luck though, in your own home game you can do anything you want, so in your game You can have paladins worship any God you want.
The actual purpose of the OP was for Canon because it came up in my PFS game when a Paladin's God was Irori, and I was not sure if that followed canon, which you need to do when ever possible on PFS, I say whenever possible because Canon of course does not cover everything, But I am in luck it does cover this!
Actually, in terms of a PFS game, I'm pretty sure it'd be more than legal. Characters in PFS 'flavor-wise' really don't need to follow canon. There is a specific set of rules they need to follow in the Guide to Society Organized Play, and also in the Core Rulebook. In neither of those does it limit what gods a Paladin can choose.
So long as the player is not being disruptive and so long as he is being Lawful Good, he can have whatever god he wants listed on the Deity line of his character sheet. It's Pathfinder Society, 90% of the time it probably won't come up more then the one time he mentioned it.
In the end, play play play!
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Actually, in terms of a PFS game, I'm pretty sure it'd be more than legal. Characters in PFS 'flavor-wise' really don't need to follow canon. There is a specific set of rules they need to follow in the Guide to Society Organized Play, and also in the Core Rulebook. In neither of those does it limit what gods a Paladin can choose.
So long as the player is not being disruptive and so long as he is being Lawful Good, he can have whatever god he wants listed on the Deity line of his character sheet. It's Pathfinder Society, 90% of the time it probably won't come up more then the one time he mentioned it.
In the end, play play play!
Kauri, you must have missed the closing of that PFS thread..
Cheliax faction paladins are completely legal.
Asmodeus-worshiping paladins are not.
You can be a Cheliax faction character who doesn't worship Asmodeus. The vast majority of Chelaix's citizens don't actually worship Asmodeus, in fact... although they're all afraid of him.
In any event... this thread has served its purpose. I'm locking it down before it gets too much more crazy
so no, they are not legal in PFS play, unless you don't want to Except James word on it, Just be warned if you play a Paladin of Asmodeus regularly at Conventions at PFS games, sooner or later a GM will call you on it.
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I remember that post, but was more awaiting a word from Josh, Mark, or Doug. They are the ones with the official word on Organized Play, after all.
In the end, it's completely a flavor thing. If it did end up being 'illegal' to have a Paladin worshipping Asmodeus or whatever, fine. But I would look more poorly on the GM that booted out the player of that character then someone that happened to pick the concept. Letting the player keep the concept in the game likely wouldn't have any negative effects, unless the paladin started using it as an excuse to sacrifice and murder (in which case, the paladin deserves to lose his powers).
Really, it's a word on a piece of paper. It's very likely it won't come up in game at all, considering most of Society scenarios are just combat.
I remember that post, but was more awaiting a word from Josh, Mark, or Doug. They are the ones with the official word on Organized Play, after all.
In the end, it's completely a flavor thing. If it did end up being 'illegal' to have a Paladin worshipping Asmodeus or whatever, fine. But I would look more poorly on the GM that booted out the player of that character then someone that happened to pick the concept. Letting the player keep the concept in the game likely wouldn't have any negative effects, unless the paladin started using it as an excuse to sacrifice and murder (in which case, the paladin deserves to lose his powers).
Really, it's a word on a piece of paper. It's very likely it won't come up in game at all, considering most of Society scenarios are just combat.
Oh, I would never be so harsh as to boot someone from a game for this. What I would do is give a warning that as soon as that player has his character use any of the paladin powers, then poof, they become a normal fighter til they switch to an appropriate deity and get an atonement per the rules on paladins committing acts in the name of evil.
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Really, it's a word on a piece of paper. It's very likely it won't come up in game at all, considering most of Society scenarios are just combat.
you are right, most likely it would never come out, I am just warning you, that if it does, the PFS GM has every right to ask you to make the character Legal, Play another character, or leave the table because if it gets past the first 2 points the player I am sure at this point will be getting belligerent.
You may think that you don't have to Follow Canon for PFS play, but I am sure you are wrong there, and though Canon of course does not cover everything, there are points it does, and this is one of them.
Edit: I know a few GMs that look very closely at these things, I know for me, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, and also the reaction of the player can change my reaction to, if he is belligerent about it, I will not budge, but if he is nice and calm about it i will give them leeway and talk to them afterwards and if Josh is around I will have a talk with him if he is not busy, I would not bug him over this stuff if he is busy, once the regional coordinators are set this is a job for them, not Josh.
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Oh, I would never be so harsh as to boot someone from a game for this. What I would do is give a warning that as soon as that player has his character use any of the paladin powers, then poof, they become a normal fighter til they switch to an appropriate deity and get an atonement per the rules on paladins committing acts in the name of evil.
That is a good one...
As far as I know yes, it is, Good catch. I could see Milani, being one as they are the god of Devotion, Kinda odd for CG but as far as I know yep that one counts
Ok folks unless it gets taken back, we have are first paladin god past one step. Any others hidden out there or is she a lone exception much like sune in FR?
Is guide to the River Kingdoms canon? P26, If it is, Achille parsall, the leader of Liberthane, is listed as a paladin of Milani.
Every book dealing with Golarion and published by Paizo is canon, but this may be another one of those errors that slipped through. Only his stat block mentions his as being a paladin. I just re-read that section and the write-up for Achille Parsall does not mention him becoming a paladin at all, though it does say this: "...he was inspired by a fiery speech from a cleric of Milani, who spoke of the power of hope and the struggle for freedom. Achille pledged himself to the church of Milani..."
While this could describe him becoming a paladin of Milani, the fact the the actual write-up does not use the word paladin makes me want an official answer from someone at Paizo.
Yeah it is stated, but also written by a freelancer. So it may be ruled non canon.
Anyhow for now it seems to be ok, until someone from paizo over rules that god or some such.
heh I am gonna ask really :) Just because I would like to know. To be blunt I never felt Milani was CG really, she does not come off in any way as CG to me.
However much like Sune in FR, I can see her as ok as she is a god of devotion, so would take ones oath and devotion to a code very seriously
Milani is also a god of uprisings and those are not exactly lawful events. ;)
Anyway, even if it was an error and Parsall was only supposed to be a follower of Milani and not a paladin of Milani, this would still show that a paladin can believe in a deity that is more than one step away on alignment while not being a holy warrior of that deity.
Lawful no, but uprisings are not chaotic,they are planned and orgnized events or they fail.
I would place her at NG far more easy then CG, to me anyhow
Anything can be ruled non-canon, even current canon, regardless of who wrote it. That's sort of the way development works.
As for CG gods vs LE gods for paladins, I don't think it's the "two steps" rule so much as the fact that paladins find the G/E axis more important than the L/C axis. Paladins don't fall for willfully committing a chaotic act, and if faced with a choice between CG and LE--such as, for example, looking the other way when a street urchin steals a loaf of bread or allowing him to be hauled before the merciless LE magistrate who will cut off the hands of all first offenders not just because there's a law to uphold and crime to prevent but because there's a lucrative business for the state selling the hands of thieves to necromancers for the creation of hands of glory.
Now, we could say that a paladin has no business being in a LE city which would tolerate such a thing, but let's say it's a LN city, and the LG lawyers have basically managed to do a sin tax on all the necromancers only allowing them to purchase thief hands from state-approved unhandings with tax stamps on the hands and palm prints on record, and if any necromancer is caught making a hand of glory with a non-state-approved hand, well, there are worse punishments, especially since necromancer parts are useful for many magics. Moreover, the proceeds of the sale of thief hands to the necromancy trade goes to state-sponsored undead prevention, rather like cigarette taxes going to public health programs.
So, anyway, we've got a paladin with a street urchin with a loaf of bread going "Hide me, mister, or they're gonna cut off my hand!" And they will too.
Clear choice here: CG or LE. What's it going to be?
Personally, I think the paladin better hide the kid, then afterward, if he has the money, go buy something from the baker and toss enough into the tip jar to make up for the missing loaf of bread, then find out how much of the hand-selling proceeds would have gone to the undead prevention program and make an anonymous contribution to that in the same amount. And if he doesn't have the money, go questing until he gets it.
Which is a long way around to saying that while a LG paladin of a CG deity might be rare, it isn't as problematic as having a paladin actively and honestly serving a LE god like Asmodeus.
[Threadjack]
Since they did not exist at the time, who would be the likely sponsors of "Anti-Paladins"?
From the major Gods,
But:
I am at work, so I don't have my Gods & Magic handy. What minor and/or racial gods would also work? [/threadjack]
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Guys ignore him, he is trolling and off topicI am neither trolling nor off topic. The topic was which gods have Paladins. Paladins can worship any god they please.
And disagreeing with you doesn't make me a troll. My arguments are not something you can dismiss, you just don't want to have to listen to them.
I think both Seeker and Jared make good points.
Seeker: Jason/James/PaizoGuys coming on the boards to clarify things and make rulings should be encouraged, and such rulings should be seen as canon.
Jared: the bit about Asmodeus paladins in Mother of Flies was a stroke of genius, and really enhanced the flavor of the setting... made it a more mature, ripe setting as opposed to more "open-ended" or "more simplistic" settings that do not explore complex interactions between mortals and gods. One only has to look at the Olympian gods to realize that evil is really in the eye of the beholder... Zeus can come off as evil as they come at times. Classic gods/mythologies didn't have a simplistic law/chaos/good/evil view of the world, but often (correctly so) fully explored the gamut of emotions a god could have in regards to certain things affecting him.
So Seeker, you're right, the big guys have come out and made a ruling, and it's now official... but Jared is right too as it sucks a little for those who really appreciated the Mother of Flies view of paladins (and to a certain extent, Council of Thieves, which occurs smack dab in a Lawful Evil kingdom, where living/breathing day-to-day folks operate in a relatively normal fashion i.e. society has adapted and found a way to exist despite the Aroden to Asmodeus regime change.... heck, some people preferred Asmodeus a thousand times over anarchy and chaos associated to a leaderless nation...)
Honestly I do not see CN gods haveing anti-paladins. They are not evil after all, I really do not see them haveing anti-paladins devoted soly to evil.
Honestly I do not see CN gods haveing anti-paladins. They are not evil after all, I really do not see them haveing anti-paladins devoted soly to evil.
Yes, ... but the same argument could be made for LN gods and Paladins.
They are not good after all, so should they have champions devoted solely to good?
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Oh, I would never be so harsh as to boot someone from a game for this. What I would do is give a warning that as soon as that player has his character use any of the paladin powers, then poof, they become a normal fighter til they switch to an appropriate deity and get an atonement per the rules on paladins committing acts in the name of evil.I remember that post, but was more awaiting a word from Josh, Mark, or Doug. They are the ones with the official word on Organized Play, after all.
In the end, it's completely a flavor thing. If it did end up being 'illegal' to have a Paladin worshipping Asmodeus or whatever, fine. But I would look more poorly on the GM that booted out the player of that character then someone that happened to pick the concept. Letting the player keep the concept in the game likely wouldn't have any negative effects, unless the paladin started using it as an excuse to sacrifice and murder (in which case, the paladin deserves to lose his powers).
Really, it's a word on a piece of paper. It's very likely it won't come up in game at all, considering most of Society scenarios are just combat.
Fighter is not a bad deal if a paladin falls. You're a generous DM! some DM would limit the player to stay a paladin without any powers! LOL!
PS: the worst thing for paladins that fall because of Asmodeus is that they can't even become antipaladins... LOL!
Oh, I would never be so harsh as to boot someone from a game for this. What I would do is give a warning that as soon as that player has his character use any of the paladin powers, then poof, they become a normal fighter til they switch to an appropriate deity and get an atonement per the rules on paladins committing acts in the name of evil.I remember that post, but was more awaiting a word from Josh, Mark, or Doug. They are the ones with the official word on Organized Play, after all.
In the end, it's completely a flavor thing. If it did end up being 'illegal' to have a Paladin worshipping Asmodeus or whatever, fine. But I would look more poorly on the GM that booted out the player of that character then someone that happened to pick the concept. Letting the player keep the concept in the game likely wouldn't have any negative effects, unless the paladin started using it as an excuse to sacrifice and murder (in which case, the paladin deserves to lose his powers).
Really, it's a word on a piece of paper. It's very likely it won't come up in game at all, considering most of Society scenarios are just combat.
Fighter is not a bad deal if a paladin falls. You're a generous DM! some DM would limit the player to stay a paladin without any powers! LOL!
PS: the worst thing for paladins that fall because of Asmodeus is that they can't even become antipaladins... LOL!
Fighter would still be fair if the loss of Paladinhood results from a rule-change and not character actions. :)