Yes, it specifically says that it lets you make all of your attacks in a full attack action.
|
There shouldn't be any issues with Rapid Shot or Haste.
Two Weapon Fighting and Imp. Two Weapon Fighting you might have some discussion issues with your GM. While the Bomb feature for the alchemist doesn't specifically say you need two hands free, the implication that you are mixing ingredients to get your explosive implies that you need both hands.
I can see that they could be strong arguments for either Two Weapon Fighting applying or not.
|
First I must interject by saying that I believe that both Inconvenience and John are wrong here. No offense meant, I am simply trying to answer the questions as I can, please take no offense.
As the rules are (Technically) silent on the issue we are left only to the use of interpretation here. As such I will give my take on it and what I believe the spirit of the rules favor. I will start with what is clear from the rules.
Splash weapons are neither normal melee or ranged weapons. They aren't even typical thrown weapons. In addition they do not count as weapons for the sake of quick draw(It has a specific clause on the feat itself to this effect). However one may easily make the case that they are "weapon-like" for the case of drawing as a free during a move action. There is no way to draw typical splash weapons fast enough to take advantage of iterative attacks. The alchemist must actively prepare his bombs before he throws them, if they remain un-thrown at the end of the round they go inert.
Fast bomb is a specific alchemist discovery that allows an alchemist to take advantage of these additional attacks. The discovery specifically states that it "Functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon," which means that is inherently NOT that. The ability allows it to mimic a ranged attack only for the purposes of said extra attacks. This means that even in the most generous of worlds that only the rapid shot feat would apply. In the description of Fast Bombs it notes that is allows the Alchemist to "quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round."
Haste works a similar way, but only by allowing "one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." The alchemist would not be "holding" the extra bomb he would be throwing and therefore the attack that would normally be granted is null due to the fact that you cannot make more than one attack with any given bomb.
I see nothing in rapid shot that allows would allow an alchemist to prepare an additional bomb. The same goes for Haste unfortunately, as it does not actually give him an additional action he is still limited to the number of bombs he can create. The only ability that grants this is Fast Bombs.
So on all fronts the answer is no. I am not sorry to say that either, as alchemists simply put, do not need to be able to throw more bombs than they already can. They are already potent enough as is, anyone who wishes to dispute me on the feel free, but I refuse to partake in discussions of DPR and all that excel spreadsheet mumbo jumbo- It has little to no meaning when you are actually sitting around a table playing the game with 2-7 of your closest friends, and any argument otherwise is nonsense.
I hope this helps.
The Metric
|
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. [i]The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks.
Seems to me that it's only granting additional bombs if your BAB is high enough to get additional attacks. So this suggests to me that when your BAB is 6 you can prepare and throw 2 bombs.
This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.
Or wait... if it's just like a full attack with a ranged weapon doesn't that include rapid shot and haste?
Paint me undecided. I'm leaning towards just iterative attacks from BAB because IMO the alchy doesn't need any help. Of course bombs per day is pretty limiting and if you are bombing 4 bombs per round you are running out in a hurry.
Not sure exactly what Jason meant here.
|
|
Bombs are considered weapons.
Yes they are, typical splash weapons however are not.
I'm fairly sure haste would work....
The point is, Fast Bombs + Haste should work.Really, I'd say it's up to the DM. How many big, nasty explosives do they want you throwing per round?
The reason I disagree that haste should would is not because they are "in hand" but because Haste by strict reading can only apply to full-attacks. Using Fast Bombs is actually NOT a full-attack action, it only functions as thus. But this touches on the same issue of how things are emulated and the interaction with the Haste spell. There are a number of debates with no clear winner on this issue, mainly focused around the spending of Ki points, Flurry of Blows(Which emulates TWF) and using a Haste spell.
But as you said it is invariably up to your DM. Personally, I wouldn't allow it.
On another note that is slightly related. Was anyone else bothered by the fact that Alchemists get no bonuses to the use of normal Alchemical items like Alchemists Fire,Liquid Ice and those that rely on weak saving throws? I would have liked to see an ability where the Alchemical Items they make have a save equal to the typical "10+Int+Something else" formula.
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks.
Ogre unintentionally answered this question. "The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks." This is not the same as a full attack. It is a full round action, that lets you throw bombs that your base attack would let you.
Rapid shot and the like are their own actions, or added on to a full attack. The only way you're going to get more bombs out of fast bombs is with Transformation giving you more base attack bonus.
Personally, I don't see the big issue with letting the alchemist throw out a plethora of bombs. Sure, he can do some damage then, but nothing game-breaking when compared to what an arcane caster can do. (Not even going into the issue that casters are gods of versatility on TOP of their godlike blasting powers)
With Rapid Shot, Haste, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and 17 BAB an alchemist 10/master chymist 10 can throw out 9 bombs. Sure, if you hit, that's like 90d6+90 if you are at lv20 and have an int of 30. Hurts indeed. But after 2 and a half rounds, you're DONE for the day. That is also close to your entire feat budget, meaning you don't really do much else. All the while, the wizard keeps spitting out his 40d6 persistent disintegrate with a horribly high save that you need to roll twice. Not to mention his horrid wiltings, empowered fireballs, fingers of death, power words and so on.
While the "Full attack with a ranged weapon" could make an argument for disallowing the TWF chain, I would definitely allow rapid shot and haste, since rapid shot is the bread and butter of ranged combatants (Could argue that it is just the bread, and deadly aim is the butter). And haste is just an extension of the full attack action.
Read again, there is no full attack action involved, ever.
Read again, there is no full attack action involved, ever.
I am looking at the book right now, and it clearly says "An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one
in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery."So, yeah. I stand by my rapid shot + haste argument.
I am in the rapid shot + haste camp, Bombs are weapons. Also at 8th level you Bab is +6 +1 anyway, and this I think is were the doubt is, why state both that you need additional attacks and the level.
But I still think taking a discovery to throw 2 bombs for 6 levels and then 3 bombs, then a feat to throw one extra bomb, so at 15 you will be able to throw 4 bombs. One more with haste for a total of 5 bombs. and yes that is 50d6 plus int mod, but at level 15 you should be pretty awesome.
anyway I think GMs every were can decide for them self, until we get an official ruling I am guessing we will continue to argue about it.
|
|
I am looking at the book right now, and it clearly says "An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one
in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery."So, yeah. I stand by my rapid shot + haste argument.
As has been said, you are wrong here. Seriously no disrespect meant but an ability that "function as" another is not equivalent to granting that ability. If that were the case monks would have been given TWF, Fast Bombs would grant Rapid Shot, and single class rogues could become Dragon Disciples.
As as far as the silliness of comparing the power level of bombs to that of a true arcane caster, you are grossly oversimplifying things. You also forget to add in the splash damage, so that 90d6+90(Which is DREADFULLY low) is neglecting the possible 323 splash damage, and another 9d6 of burn damage the next round. Less than 5% of games make it to level 20 and you seem to have no grasp of how overwhelmingly trivial bombs can make many encounters below level 8.
The man came here asking a rules question, and as far as the RAW is concerned Rapid Shot does not work, and haste is a grey area at best. Bombing is not a ranged attack, it is a splash attack and therefore does not qualify for Rapid Shot, and that is without even mentioning the prep time on each bomb.
But I still think taking a discovery to throw 2 bombs for 6 levels and then 3 bombs, then a feat to throw one extra bomb, so at 15 you will be able to throw 4 bombs. One more with haste for a total of 5 bombs. and yes that is 50d6 plus int mod, but at level 15 you should be pretty awesome.
The problem is NOT NOT NOT about how much damage you do at these high levels. If it is any indication piazo doesn't even make adventure modules that go past that level(at this point at least).
So how about we look at what the scene would look like if at level 8 Rapid shot and Haste were allowed to work with Fast Bombs. That means each bomb does 4d6+int damage to the primary target. You can throw 4 bombs.
Lets set some ground rules, you have point blank shot and a base int mod of +4(Which is modest/low considering 2 stat bumps IMO). By now you have access to extracts to pump up your int score so lets add another +2 on top of that. If you aren't stupid you would likely be using explosive bombs which doubles the number of targets damaged by the spell and adds another 1d6 damage (Or makes the creature waste an entire turn your pick).
So we have 20d6+28 Damage (Average of 88) on one target and 44 damage (reflex for half) on up to 17 (medium sized) creatures around it. Comes out to around 656 damage if half make the save.
Yes that is optimal if all spaces are filled but lets say only half and a quarter are filled with creatures what then?
For half 338 damage, and a quarter of the spaces filled does 228 damage per round.
At level 8, does that sound reasonable to you? Are your fighters and wizards doing 228 damage a round? Ok scratch that, are they even doing 88 damage a round to ONE creature? No they aren't.
Bombs were not designed to be used with these abilities and trying to force a square peg into a round hole is going to break the system and YOUR GAME. Maybe if you like playing munchkin characters where destroying everything on the battlefield in 2 rounds then go right ahead, but to counteract this a DM would have to be putting you up against CR 14 monsters. Keep that in mind.
I'm with the "rapid shot and haste allowed" camp (two weapon fighting obviously does not work, since two hands are required for one bomb).
I see the fast bomb discovery as the "quick draw for bombs" (since quick draw explicitly excludes them). Since a character, that uses thrown weapons and has quick draw, can use rapid shot, this should also be possible for a bomb thrower with fast bombs.
Also, if you ask me, "function as" is clearer than what it says in the quick draw description: "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)".
Note also, that it is EITHER rapid shot OR haste.
yes with the optimum conditions bombs can deal out lots of damage, I don't think that allowing rapid shot to work would be to much. even at lower levels, optimum conditions are not going to come up ever time and when they do is why people play. I have not seen rapid shot with bombs in a game just yet and when I do I my disallow it, but I still don't think one more bomb a round is going to destroy every thing.
NOW this argument is not about how awesome lots of bombs are or if bomb need to be limited, but if rapid shot, two weapon fighting, imp 2 weapon fighting, haste to add more attacks. So TWF no I don't think so, Haste I think so, Rapid Shot again I think so.
Again this is just my interpretation of the rules, I don't think on extra Bomb will throw of CR of the party, and any one who stands in one place the whole time is going to get smoked.
So any one know what the ruling for Pathfinder Society Organized Play on this one is.
so have fun and blow up stuff
At level 8, does that sound reasonable to you? Are your fighters and wizards doing 228 damage a round? Ok scratch that, are they even doing 88 damage a round to ONE creature? No they aren't.
What are you TALKING about? Yes they do. A hasted fighter that dedicates his entire being to dishing out pain (which effectively is what the alchemist in question is doing) with str22 and a +1 greatsword (not unreasonable to assume) will deal 87 damage on average (2d6+22 9str, 9PA, 2spec, 1WT, 1magic) if all three attacks hit, and he has a much greater chance to score a critical hit with improved critical. And that is just 3 out of 9 feats (10 if human) to do so. The rest is dedicated to give him versatility.
And a caster is just plain scary. Do 228 in one round divided on all the targets in his AoE? No problem, just pick the right spell, and don't worry if he is immune to fire, unlike the alchemist in question, a caster can do buckets of damage of most any element. If damage is not your cup of tea, have him do a save, or die, either due to the spell itself (phantasmal killer) or because the rogue is around to deliver absurd sneak attack after you have debilitated him.
Oh yeah, the dual-wielding/throwing rogue does 25d6/30d6+whatever (avg of 87.5), as long as he can sneak-attack. And no, it is not hard to sneak attack anymore.
Sure, I agree that the full-blow 2 weapon rapid haste of doom is over the top, but getting off 4 is not the end of the world when it is a finite resource, subject to energy resistance.
|
|
With Rapid Shot, Haste, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and 17 BAB an alchemist 10/master chymist 10 can throw out 9 bombs. Sure, if you hit, that's like 90d6+90 if you are at lv20 and have an int of 30. Hurts indeed. But after 2 and a half rounds, you're DONE for the day. That is also close to your entire feat budget, meaning you don't really do much else. All the while, the wizard keeps spitting out his 40d6 persistent disintegrate with a horribly high save that you need to roll twice. Not to mention his horrid wiltings, empowered fireballs, fingers of death, power words and so on.
1st, you are missing the last paragraph of Persistent Spell
Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.
So Persistent disintegrate won't even work.
Disintegrate is a triple jeopardy spell, the wizard has to hit with a touch attack, bypass SR, and the target has to fail his saving throw. Even if you allow persistent disintegrate isn't even equivalent to three bombs.
Three bombs do 30d6+24 damage, slightly lower average than disintegrate but it's an easy touch attack (and the alchemist has higher BAB and likely higher Dex). On top of this the bomber is doing splash damage and inflicting other nasty effects at the same time; prone, staggered, deafness, nauseated, con damage, etc.
The bomber can do better than disintegrate effects 10 times per day. If it's a gnome he can do it 15 times per day. That's all without taking any extra bomb feats.
Alchemists are just flat out better at dealing direct damage along with related effects than wizards even without rapid shot and haste adding to the chaos.
The wizard does all kinds of other stuff better than the alchemist but with regards to direct damage, the alchy is king (though archers might still have an edge).
Regardless, back to the rules...
While the "Full attack with a ranged weapon" could make an argument for disallowing the TWF chain, I would definitely allow rapid shot and haste, since rapid shot is the bread and butter of ranged combatants (Could argue that it is just the bread, and deadly aim is the butter). And haste is just an extension of the full attack action.
This to me is where it gets goofy. Is it based on your base attack bonus alone as the previous sentence suggests; or is it equivalent to a normal full attack with a ranged weapon (which would imply haste and rapid shot would apply)?
All this arguing really doesn't seem to clear up the apparent contradiction either way.
|
|
And a caster is just plain scary. Do 228 in one round divided on all the targets in his AoE? No problem, just pick the right spell, and don't worry if he is immune to fire, unlike the alchemist in question, a caster can do buckets of damage of most any element.
228 damage implies 8 creatures in an area that all fail their saves; not entirely likely.
Most of the wizards direct damage spells are ideal for dishing out small amounts of damage to a large group of creatures. Alchemists are better at dishing a large amount of damage to a single target and small amounts to adjacent targets.
I think there are 2 reasons why the TWF chain can't be used with bombs.
One might think that as a THROWN splash weapon, bombs are a type of thrown weapon. These can be used for two-weapon fighting (see Core Rulebook p.202, Two-Weapon Fighting, Thrown Weapons). However, the "Throw Splash Weapon" entry (also on p.202) does not say thrown splash weapons are a thrown weapon, but "A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact". So they are just a ranged weapon.
The other reason is that the action of throwing a bomb includes the adding of the catalyst to every bomb. It is hard to imagine doing this single-handedly, even less simultaneously with both hands.
Err... how do you figure Disintegrate is not up for persistent? It is a lessening of the effect, just not the classic "save for half".
And a caster is just plain scary. Do 228 in one round divided on all the targets in his AoE? No problem, just pick the right spell, and don't worry if he is immune to fire, unlike the alchemist in question, a caster can do buckets of damage of most any element.Please, be specific here. What spells? Alchemist can pick damage types including force to effect incorporeal.
Most of the wizards direct damage spells are ideal for dishing out small amounts of damage to a large group of creatures. Alchemists are better at dishing a large amount of damage to a single target and small amounts to adjacent targets.
Alchemists have a VERY finite amount of discoveries, even if devoting feats towards it. If you want a versatile alchemist, that is all you get. If you want a damage-focused alchemist, then THAT is what you get. You can't have both ways. At least not until the "irrelevant levels" (16+) that are not included in standard adventure paths.
Now, I will give you this; If you play CORE pathfinder, then yes, the damage-focused alchemist is able to impress even a wizard. At levels 1-8, the alchemist wins the damage contest, then the wizard slowly gets the upper hand as the alchemist is not able to get up his defenses fast enough, and a lot of the monsters get high touch AC. Not to mention the wizard have a whole lot more finesse in his ways to do so. Lots of weaker monsters? Chain Lighting. One hulking brute? Hold Monster and let someone coup de grace him. Immune to magic? Summon. All the while, the alchemist is doing his one trick.
But if you allow 3.5 spells and feats, and your wizard/sorcerer is going to spew out MUCH more damage. Empower everything as +1 level with Practical Metamagic, and send out 10d8x150% sound-lances/orbs on the solos, dump level x d6 firebrands to whittle down entire encounters, or if you are a sorcerer just get wings of flurry and earn your GM's hatred.
Essentially, the alchemist is a DECENT damage dealer, going into the high tier if you focus most of your feats and discoveries on it. I actually like it quite a bit as it is the single most UNIQUE class in the APG, and if my bard dies, I might make an alchemist.
And I will probably not even go for the mad bomber aspect, as it costs ALL of my feats up to and including lv7 (5 if human) to do so (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim), and at least 3 discoveries (Explosive, Precise, Fast). By level 8 I CAN in theory be a reliable bomber, playing human and taking extra discovery and have at least two alternative energies to play with. But then I am a one-trick pony, and I don't really like to over-specialize.
|
|
And I will probably not even go for the mad bomber aspect, as it costs ALL of my feats up to and including lv7 (5 if human) to do so (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim), and at least 3 discoveries (Explosive, Precise, Fast). By level 8 I CAN in theory be a reliable bomber, playing human and taking extra discovery and have at least two alternative energies to play with. But then I am a one-trick pony, and I don't really like to over-specialize.
I'm pretty sure that Deadly Aim doesn't work for bombs as it indicates that the bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks.
|
|
Err... how do you figure Disintegrate is not up for persistent? It is a lessening of the effect, just not the classic "save for half".
Because 5d6 is a lessened effect, it doesn't say "save for half, it says lessened effect. Regardless it's still worse than three bombs even if it works with persistent (and as an 8th level effect it's pretty limited also).
Alchemists have a VERY finite amount of discoveries, even if devoting feats towards it. If you want a versatile alchemist, that is all you get. If you want a damage-focused alchemist, then THAT is what you get. You can't have both ways. At least not until the "irrelevant levels" (16+) that are not included in standard adventure paths.And a caster is just plain scary. Do 228 in one round divided on all the targets in his AoE? No problem, just pick the right spell, and don't worry if he is immune to fire, unlike the alchemist in question, a caster can do buckets of damage of most any element.Please, be specific here. What spells? Alchemist can pick damage types including force to effect incorporeal.
Most of the wizards direct damage spells are ideal for dishing out small amounts of damage to a large group of creatures. Alchemists are better at dishing a large amount of damage to a single target and small amounts to adjacent targets.
Umm, this is not true.
Your mandatory discoveries are precise bomb, and fast bombs. The damage I've been discussing is all base damage, not counting persistent effects like sticky bomb or acid or burning.
Effects are in addition to damage except for wisdom and dispelling, neither of which were mentioned.
Now, I will give you this; If you play CORE pathfinder, then yes, the damage-focused alchemist is able to impress even a wizard. At levels 1-8, the alchemist wins the damage contest, then the wizard slowly gets the upper hand as the alchemist is not able to get up his defenses fast enough, and a lot of the monsters get high touch AC. Not to mention the wizard have a whole lot more finesse in his ways to do so. Lots of weaker monsters? Chain Lighting. One hulking brute? Hold Monster and let someone coup de grace him. Immune to magic? Summon. All the while, the alchemist is doing his one trick.
I never said "better than wizard", I said better at direct damage. There is a huge difference there.
A whole slew of weaker monsters? Spread out your bombs, hit three targets per round and between the overlapping splash and no saving throw damage you are likely doing as much as chain lightning.
Single tough target? Focus all bombs on him and add effects to disable him.
Again, direct damage plus effects alchemist wins every time.
But if you allow 3.5 spells and feats, and your wizard/sorcerer is going to spew out MUCH more damage. Empower everything as +1 level with Practical Metamagic, and send out 10d8x150% sound-lances/orbs on the solos, dump level x d6 firebrands to whittle down entire encounters, or if you...
*shrug* I can't really speak to that, my collection of 3.5 stuff is dwindling and was never large. Clearly a class with 10+ years of added stuff has plenty of time to gain an advantage over a brand new one.
|
|
Well I think this thread got derailed slightly but that is easy enough to do, and forgivable.
I may not be the most elite of the rules lawyers here but I am certain in the fact that neither Haste nor Rapid Shot work for bombs. After reviewing old forum posts and accepted interpretations of abilities that emulate other effects such as TWF and FoB, Lesser and Major Magic (Rogue abilities), and several domain powers the answer is clear.
Under fast bombs it specifically states "...can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full round action as if his base attack bonus is high enough..." It goes on to say "This functions just like a full attack with a ranged weapon." Ability emulation is not replication. Just like how a (6th level) cleric of the healing domain has all cure spells they cast treated as though they were empowered. There is no metamagic taking place, this is a (Supernatural) effect.
No matter what you do, a full-round action does not equal a full-attack action, and for TWF, RS, or Haste to take effect it requires the PC to actually perform a full-attack action.
|
|
Under fast bombs it specifically states "...can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full round action as if his base attack bonus is high enough..." It goes on to say "This functions just like a full attack with a ranged weapon." Ability emulation is not replication. Just like how a (6th level) cleric of the healing domain has all cure spells they cast treated as though they were empowered. There is no metamagic taking place, this is a (Supernatural) effect.
No matter what you do, a full-round action does not equal a full-attack action, and for TWF, RS, or Haste to take effect it requires the PC to actually perform a full-attack action.
Actually, from the two statements "... as a full round action..." and "This functions just just like a full attack with a ranged weapon." I'm of the opinion that both Rapid Shot and Haste should work. Because the alchemist is using a full round action to perform an action which functions just like a full attack.
To me that implies that feats/magic/abilities requiring a full attack should work.
Your example of the 6th level healing domain is not a good comparison, because it specifically states that you cannot stack 'Empower Spell' metamagic feat. It does not rule out the possibility of applying other metamagic feats.
|
|
Actually, from the two statements "... as a full round action..." and "This functions just just like a full attack with a ranged weapon." I'm of the opinion that both Rapid Shot and Haste should work. Because the alchemist is using a full round action to perform an action which functions just like a full attack.
To me that implies that feats/magic/abilities requiring a full attack should work.
The act of throwing fast bombs is a special granted full-round action. It is not a full attack. The only reason the full attack wording was brought in was to describe how it works, not to define it.
It implies nothing, you all are interpreting "functions as" as meaning "is." I hate to go all Bill Clinton on you but ...
A slab of rock can function as a mattress, but is it one? No.
It would be nice if we could get another couple of the well known rules lawyers in here to put some weight on the issue. I feel like the last samurai here.
Themetricsystem is correct.
If this still confuses you think of it as a spell with a full round casting time that lets you throw one bomb, two at 8th and a third at 15th.
Bomb (Su): In addition to magical extracts, alchemists
are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals
and infusing them with their magical reserves to create
powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An
alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal
to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs
are unstable, and if not used in the round they are
created, they degrade and become inert—their method
of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material
from being created and stored. In order to create a
bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing
an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create
this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals
from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily
refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component
pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials
at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs
they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial
remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard
action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown
bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash
Weapon special attack (see page 202 of the Pathfinder
RPG Core Rulebook).[b] [Bombs are considered weapons
and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank
Shot and Weapon Focus./[b] On a direct hit, an alchemist’s
bomb inf licts 1d6 points of f ire damage + additional
damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modif ier.
The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6
points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this
bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by
using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an
alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum
damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of f ire
damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6
points of f ire damage). Those caught in the splash
damage can attempt a Ref lex save for half damage. The
DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level +
the alchemist’s Intelligence modif ier.
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries
(see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist’s
bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by
anyone else.
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can
quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one
in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw
additional bombs as a full-round action if his base
attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional
attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a
ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level
before selecting this discovery.
I have switched camps after looking at the rules, I think TWF works,
just kidding, I think that the rules are open to interpretation. I can see it both ways. did does not say that rapid shot works, but it dose say that bombs are throw weapons.
I feel the need to point out that if you're comparing a wizard's damage with anything else in the world, you aren't doing too hot period.
|
|
Pathfinder Core pg 187
Full Round Action = Full Attack
Fast Bombs = Full Round Action that functions like a Full Attack
To me it seems clear that both Rapid Shot and Haste should work with Fast Bombs. As in both cases you are using a full round action. With the Fast Bombs, it has to function like a Full Attack so you can throw more than one bomb.
I'm still not sure on the Two Weapon Fighting variant... mainly because I've never delved too deeply into how Two Weapon Fighting and thrown weapons works (nor off hand do I recall any of my players pulling out that bag of tricks).
I suppose something else that could also be considered... what other feats would work in conjunction with Bombs?
Shot on the Run?
Weapon Spec? (assuming you took 4 levels of Fighter)
Dazzling Display? (granted you would pretty much have to have the Delayed Bomb discovery for this to work)
|
Just because I wrote a similarly meticulous analysis earlier when one of my players wanted a detailed explanation of why the various abilities of the Alchemist are standard actions and whether those actions include drawing the vials and/or flasks involved, I'm going to back the last samurai on this.
I think the Metric has hit on a very important point that Jason and the other designers need to pay very close attention to when issuing new rules or errata.... if it does not explicitly grant a new rule, the old rules are assumed to apply by half the group and the other half assume that a completely different set of old rules applies.
I believe the Metric when he says he's read through the pertinent threads on whether something LIKE a full attack is treated as a full attack with regard to other rules, specifically feats. I particularly remember the debate that centered around Vital Strike and whether an attack action(a relatively new phrase at the time, I think) signified a single attack or part of any attack sequence. The feat was eventually reworded and clarified and that is likely to occur here as well since the language is ambiguous enough to support Duck Season/Rabbit Season arguments.
Since I've gone and allied myself with Rabbit Season, here is my simplified rationale:
A single bomb is normally a standard action. Quick draw will not work to speed this up because the Bomb ability assumes the components to be readily available for catalyzing(you either have them in hand or the ability ignores the time it takes to get them in hand, as with spell components...both cases work for the rationale), and it is the activation itself that takes a standard action. The Fast Bombs discovery says specifically how many extra bombs you can add if you extend that standard action into a full round. Per earlier rulings of other feats, spells, and abilities, anything that changes a core mechanic states explicitly what changes. Nothing can be assumed.
Fast Bombs states and grants the following: extra bombs if you extend the standard action to a full-round action, using your BAB to calculate how many extra bombs you can throw. Since this could be misinterpreted to mean you throw multiple bombs with a single attack roll, it clarifies that this acts like a full attack with a ranged weapon, but it does not change or amend the original feat restrictions listed in the Bomb ability description. It does however allow some to argue that the INTENTION is for a player to lob bombs like shuriken, but the stated intention is written thusly: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. It could mean "create and throw as many bombs as you have attacks," but it sounds more modest and the explicit text supports the modest gain of one extra bomb per iterative attack.
Of course, I'm in a game now where the DM allowed me to play the 3rd party abomination known as Artificer and even I think his rulings are erroneously generous when it comes to the class's abilities, so interpretations of Fast Bombs will vary wildly depending on your DM until someone with greater authority than we happy few rules on this.
|
|
Pathfinder Core pg 187
Full Round Action = Full Attack
[condescending logic]
I think you'll find that it actually says:
Full Attack = Full Round Action
But in logic terms, this is a bad way to express it because a Blank that is a Blankity-Blank is not necessarily a reversible statement. A house is made of wood, but wood does not only make a house, etc.
A Full Attack is a Full Round Action. A Full Round Action is not necessarily a Full Attack.
[/condescending logic]
To your question about feats, the Bomb ability says the following feats work with bombs: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, and Vital Strike. It leaves it up to interpretation which others will work, using those as a guide.
- My personal ruling would be that Weapon Specialization would, assuming you met the requirements.
- Shot on the Run would not, since it allows you to make a single ranged attack as part of your movement and a bomb, while defined as a weapon, requires a standard action to activate and utilize(if it could be deployed without tinkering, sure, but it's just a vial of nothing until the Alchemist spends his action making it work).
- Dazzling Display...sure. In fact, the text of the feat is so darned specific that you don't even need to activate the bomb to make the Intimidate check(you're basically just waving the weapon around as part of your Intimidate check and the ability clearly delineates bombs as weapons, whether or not they look particularly threatening before activation). You might roleplay it as holding up the vial and telling them it's a thermal detonator that will kill them all if they refuse to pay you 50,000 for the Wookie. Or not. Totally your call, but that one's black and white. No Delayed Bomb needed.
/steps boldly to the side of the line containing WFG and Metric
My biggest concern is Rapid Shot. It has the potential to trivialize all party combat encounters at low level because it's an easy feat to get extra attacks with. With it, it is extremely easy to get a bomb-dumping alchemist that can wipe most party encounters with low hit dice in a round (i.e. before others have had a chance to have fun too). I've seen the damage an alchemist can do at level 2 even sans Mad Bomber feats in my Kingmaker game, I'd be concerned with how an additional bomb, even ground-targeted, can increase damage output far beyond what any low-level ___________ can accomplish.
Lvl 1 Wizard: Magic Missile! (rolls) He takes 4!
Lvl 1 Alchemist: Two ground-targeted bombs! Who cares about primary damage when I can do 5 points of splash damage to those 4 adjacent guys! Twice!
(Alchemist rolls a 6 and a 7 for attack rolls on his two bombs)
Alchemist: It's okay! I have 12 Dex! Mwa ha ha! 40 points in total to this area!
DM: Uh, those two save for half so you only do 30... That was the entire orc family you just wiped in an action...
(curtain falls as the alchemist is cackling maniacally. The other players groan and start looking for the X-Box.)
Note the conservative nature of this example. This is for a hybrid class that still gets extracts, mutagens, and mid-range armor/BAB/hps.
On the rules lawyery front note that you can only affect 4 targets with splash weapons as you need to target an intersection. It is not a 5-foot burst.
|
|
Reinforcements have arrived!
I would continue making my case but it has already been made, and GREAT point WFG about the vital strike thread from a while back. I think for everyone involved it would simply be best to flag this for a FAQ. While to some it may be understandable with research, others (clearly) are having a hard time with it.
|
|
/steps boldly to the side of the line containing WFG and Metric
My biggest concern is Rapid Shot. It has the potential to trivialize all party combat encounters at low level because it's an easy feat to get extra attacks with. With it, it is extremely easy to get a bomb-dumping alchemist that can wipe most party encounters with low hit dice in a round (i.e. before others have had a chance to have fun too). I've seen the damage an alchemist can do at level 2 even sans Mad Bomber feats in my Kingmaker game, I'd be concerned with how an additional bomb, even ground-targeted, can increase damage output far beyond what any low-level ___________ can accomplish.
Lvl 1 Wizard: Magic Missile! (rolls) He takes 4!
Lvl 1 Alchemist: Two ground-targeted bombs! Who cares about primary damage when I can do 5 points of splash damage to those 4 adjacent guys! Twice!
(Alchemist rolls a 6 and a 7 for attack rolls on his two bombs)
Alchemist: It's okay! I have 12 Dex! Mwa ha ha! 40 points in total to this area!
DM: Uh, those two save for half so you only do 30... That was the entire orc family you just wiped in an action...
(curtain falls as the alchemist is cackling maniacally. The other players groan and start looking for the X-Box.)Note the conservative nature of this example. This is for a hybrid class that still gets extracts, mutagens, and mid-range armor/BAB/hps.
On the rules lawyery front note that you can only affect 4 targets with splash weapons as you need to target an intersection. It is not a 5-foot burst.
Well under the first point Rapid Shot I would argue that an Alchemist can't use it for bombs until the Discovery Fast Bombs, which requires a lvl 8 Alchemist. Primarily, because under Bombs it states as a Standard Action, you make 1 bomb.
So with your example of a Wizard and an Alchemist, at Lvl 8, using Rapid Shot & Haste, an alchemist might be able to throw 4 bombs (two for BAB, +1 for Rapid Shot, +1 for Haste).
Primary bomb damage: 4d6+Int Mod (lets assume 5) x4 (with hit rolls required)
Splash bomb damage: 4 + 5 (Int Mod) (to all within 5' of the target, whether that is 8 sqs for Med/Small, 12 sqs for Large, or 4 sqs for ground target). With a save for 1/2 damage to all affected by the splash.
vs. Mr Evocation Wizard who drops an 8d6+8 fireball with a 20' radius. Save for 1/2. No hit roll required.
Single Target damage for the bombs (assuming one target for all the bombs, 16d6+20, splash damage 36pts)
Is the alchemist doing more single target damage then the wizard. Yes. Area damage will actually depend more on what the specific scenario is (larger area, the wizard impacts more targets with his larger radius).
The difference though is that to achieve this, that the Alchemist has spent a feat selection, used an action to drink a level 3 extract (Haste) and used approx 1/3 of his potential bombs for the day (8+5 under the assumption we were using). So this means the alchemist had time to buff, or used a round to get Haste up. This also means that if the Alchemist decides to go all out... he will have 3 rounds of 4 bombs, 1 round of 1 bomb and then he is out of bombs for the day.
The Wizard has used one 3rd level slot (and has access to lvl 1st,2nd and 4th spells as well).
Technically, I don't think we wanted to get into an alchemist/wizard debate... :)
|
|
Well under the first point Rapid Shot I would argue that an Alchemist can't use it for bombs until the Discovery Fast Bombs, which requires a lvl 8 Alchemist. Primarily, because under Bombs it states as a Standard Action, you make 1 bomb.
So with your example of a Wizard and an Alchemist, at Lvl 8, using Rapid Shot & Haste, an alchemist might be able to throw 4 bombs (two for BAB, +1 for Rapid Shot, +1 for Haste).
Primary bomb damage: 4d6+Int Mod (lets...
Damage comparisons are best left to the optimization threads, I think. Both sides tend to turn those into nuclear arms races for which example is more devastating. I'm with Metric on flagging this and going back to our lives. It's going to be a case by case thing until it receives errata or clarification from on high.
I gave up on this post a while back.
|
|
/steps boldly to the side of the line containing WFG and Metric
My biggest concern is Rapid Shot. It has the potential to trivialize all party combat encounters at low level because it's an easy feat to get extra attacks with. With it, it is extremely easy to get a bomb-dumping alchemist that can wipe most party encounters with low hit dice in a round (i.e. before others have had a chance to have fun too). I've seen the damage an alchemist can do at level 2 even sans Mad Bomber feats in my Kingmaker game, I'd be concerned with how an additional bomb, even ground-targeted, can increase damage output far beyond what any low-level ___________ can accomplish.
You cannot get fast bombs until 8th level so anything below that is irrelevant. It does seem odd to me that at 7th level you can make one attack per round in spite of haste/ rapid shot then suddenly at 8th you can get 4 attacks per round.
The fact that you can't get it until you get iterative attacks and the language pretty clearly says "if your BAB would allow additional attacks" not "if you can make multiple attacks" sort of points to the fact that it only works with iterative attacks.
I'm still on the fence here, just making a couple points.
|
|
Damage comparisons are best left to the optimization threads, I think. Both sides tend to turn those into nuclear arms races for which example is more devastating. I'm with Metric on flagging this and going back to our lives. It's going to be a case by case thing until it receives errata or clarification from on high.
Turns out you can only flag a post for the FAQ once, who'd have figured?
|
|
If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." (SKR, 8/18/10)
Hopefully this will curtail any more arguments over this topic... :)
Found here
|
|
If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." (SKR, 8/18/10)
Hopefully this will curtail any more arguments over this topic... :)
Found here
Yes, but hopefully they clean up the text in future so it reads more clearly. The line just before that reads like a limiter. The whole thing would have been perfectly clear if they combined the two sentences and called it a full attack first, rather than a full-round action that's LIKE a full attack. The writers should steer clear of "just like" altogether in favor of concrete words when they mean "is" or "as."
If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." (SKR, 8/18/10)
Hopefully this will curtail any more arguments over this topic... :)
Found here
Darn! I was ninja'd.
Anyways, thanks for posting. Maybe this thread can die now.
And either way, no matter how you play and what power level you want for a campaign, the GM always has the power of "... no."
If you want the "bombs by BAB", you reword the phrase to state "full-round action allowing the alchemist to use bombs as granted by his base attack bonus." and eliminate confusion.
Just like how I nerfed teleport in order to prevent scry&fry, which basically cost me 20$ for a part of an adventure path that was cut short as they just teleported invisible into the bedroom of the main bad and delivered a coup de grace. Anticlimax, thy name is wizard.
And if you are playing a regular campaign, where neither the GM or the characters are dead-driven on it being Captain Damage vs The Optimization Horde, I can see that restricting the alchemist is a good thing for your campaign.
|
So, a level 20 Alchemist Could have the following attacks?
Starting Dex 16 Int 16 (+5 to dex via leveling)
Normal + Point Blank Shot + Cats Grace + Mutagen (+8 dex) (dex at this point is 33)
26/21/16
Rapid Shot
24/24/19/14
TWF + Rapid Shot
20/20/20/15/10
Improved TWF + TWF + Rapid Shot
20/20/20/15/10/5
Greater TWF + Improved TWF + TWF + Rapid Shot
20/20/20/15/10/5/-5
Haste + Greater TWF + Improved TWF + TWF + Rapid Shot
21/21/21/21/16/11/6/-4
Not counting any magic items.
This puts damage (not leaving 1 round more of bombs to throw) at:
Minimum damage over 3 round (2 rounds of throwing if all hit + 1 round for the sticky bomb discovery damage to finish)
416
Average of the same:
816 for the main types (fire,shock, or frost)
or 656 for the secondary types (sonic and force)
Max of the same:
1216 or 848 for the main or secondary types.
Plus you can still do another 208 to 608 over the next 2 rounds (at this point you are out of bombs.)
Against a Tarrasque with a touch AC of 5, you should be able to hit on all of these with a 10+. You will hit on 7 out of 8 as long as you do not roll a 1. You should be able to (as long as the tarrasque does not kill you before then) drop it to better then -300 in about 3 rounds. This takes into effect its 40 Regen and the fact that you would be using shock (since it does not have an immunity to electricity) .
Can someone tell me if I am wrong?
|
|
Well, I guess hearing it from the lions mouth... Houserule it is, Guess I will have to start lying to my players then, because there is no way I am letting this monstrosity enter my games.
Lying to your players? Why, just make a list of house rules and add this on to it. I ban Manyshot because I don't like it stacking with rapidshot, I might ban this also, not sure yet.
The big problem with rapid shot + haste is it makes bombing a a nova class feature. 3-4 rounds of bombing then do something else for the rest of the day.
hay can some one direct me to the answer on the FAQ I can't find
EDIT: Nevermind I found it, I am glad my Dad is not here he talk about snake bite again
I guess 20th-level characters aren't allowed to have cool things.
I fail to see how the above 20th-level build is much different then some of the archer builds we see.
|
|
I guess 20th-level characters aren't allowed to have cool things.
I fail to see how the above 20th-level build is much different then some of the archer builds we see.
I think it's the splash damage that some people might be concerned about. I'm on the fence about how this affects the class's power level.
|
|
I guess 20th-level characters aren't allowed to have cool things.
I fail to see how the above 20th-level build is much different then some of the archer builds we see.
It is and never was about the level 20 character. It was about the level 8 character who literally quadruples the number of bombs he can thrown in with single levels advancement. Goes from level 7 where he can throw one, to level 8 when they pick up fast bombs. I cant think off-handed of a single class that explodes (Doh Ho Ho) in power level so quickly at at point in their level advancement compared to this.