|
| 13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
From the Haunted Curse description, "Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction."
Does this affect Spellcasting? (I.e. are items in your spell component pouch considered "stored).
I had read this as affecting items stored in your backpack or otherwise not ready for use, but learned that there is another point of view which considers the haunted curse to make any spell casting using material components to take one round to retrieve and another round to cast the spell.
I'd like to get an official response, so there are no surprises in my Pathfinder Society play.
Retrieving something from your backpack already takes a standard action or longer, so the rule would be unnecessary in that case. I think it's obvious that it's meant to be for anything that takes less than a standard action normally - getting a component from your pouch, a potion from your belt, or drawing a weapon.
Get eschew materials.
Retrieving something from your backpack already takes a standard action or longer, so the rule would be unnecessary in that case. I think it's obvious that it's meant to be for anything that takes less than a standard action normally - getting a component from your pouch, a potion from your belt, or drawing a weapon.
Get eschew materials.
Retrieving an item from your backpack (i.e., retrieving a stored item) is a move action. I'm with sieylianna on this- I really can't see that the actual intent of this was to make spellcasting take twice as long as it would otherwise.
I think it would effect it, you took the curse and to me that is part of that curse.
I think it would effect it, you took the curse and to me that is part of that curse.
Except that makes the curse so vastly worse than the other curses that it isn't even funny. Not 'well, one of these choices is less optimal than the other' worse, but 'one of these choices is pretty much unplayable' worse. You're already being hit by having to use a standard instead of a move action to get a potion, wand, scroll, draw a weapon, etc. And if you drop anything, whether intentionally or otherwise, it goes flying ten feet away. These aren't crippling drawbacks, but they're inconvenient. Having to take two rounds to cast any spell with material components is crippling for a spellcasting class.
Retrieving an item from your backpack (i.e., retrieving a stored item) is a move action. I'm with sieylianna on this- I really can't see that the actual intent of this was to make spellcasting take twice as long as it would otherwise.
Oh, frak me! Well, apparently I hadn't grasp of the rules as well as I thought. Then I don't really know how to stand on this - it seems an awfully weak curse if it doesn't affect spellcasting, and the bonuses aren't that bad. On the other hand, if it does restrict spellcasting it makes eschew materials an absolute, 100% must and then is as weak as before - so it's just like a 1 feat penalty.
EDIT: Note that not all spells have material components, and since the oracle is a spontaneous caster, she can choose spells without those.
Also note that if it doesn't affect spell components, I can't see it affecting anything else that has special rules for retrieving, such as drawing a weapon. It seems to mean either "this affects all kinds of retrieval" or "this only affects retrieving stored items as in the "retrieve stored item" move action".
Then 1 : don't take that curse or 2: get eschew materials. You chose that CURSE and must now deal with the curse, which is why it is called a curse.
I think it would effect it, you took the curse and to me that is part of that curse.Except that makes the curse so vastly worse than the other curses that it isn't even funny. Not 'well, one of these choices is less optimal than the other' worse, but 'one of these choices is pretty much unplayable' worse. You're already being hit by having to use a standard instead of a move action to get a potion, wand, scroll, draw a weapon, etc.
I can't see how that would be so much game-breakingly harder than being deaf. Actually, I'd pick Haunted curse over Deaf curse any day, even if it affects spellcasting.
Then 1 : don't take that curse or 2: get eschew materials. You chose that CURSE and must now deal with the curse, which is why it is called a curse.
If a curse is defeatable by simply picking up a feat, it's not much of a curse. On the other side of the coin, if a class feature requires picking up a feat, it's imperfect game design. Compare it to the other curses: deaf doesn't give you a 20% failure rate on verbal spells; it expressly works around that. In the case of haunted, the curse is the inconvenience of having to spend extra time and blowing your actions on digging out any junk you don't have in your hands at the moment. There's no way I can buy the intent here is 'take this curse and be a crap spellcaster; unless you invest in a feat, in which case the curse is merely on par with the rest of the curses.'
Also note that if it doesn't affect spell components, I can't see it affecting anything else that has special rules for retrieving, such as drawing a weapon. It seems to mean either "this affects all kinds of retrieval" or "this only affects retrieving stored items as in the "retrieve stored item" move action".
This. Technically if you got to "retrieve stored item" it is the only mention of stored items in the game. Once again, technically, unsheathing a weapon is still a regular move action under that. The DM needs to decide if it refers to "stored items" or items you have.
Personally I would side with it only affecting items stored in your pack that require a move action to retrieve normally. If you saw "you automatically grapple the target" you would assume that refers to the rules for grappling, not an arbitrary grapple where you hang onto the guy and ride him like a pony.
As for whether the curse itself is strong enough, look at it this way. All of the other "curses", the benefits through out the levels far outweigh or even eliminate the penalty of your so called "curse". Haunted is the only one that continues to be a true bother. Im sure someone will argue that statement, but it is true. Lame and Wasting "curses" on a 10-15th level Oracle are outright buffs to the class.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I agree with DankeSean and Glutton. None of the other curses affect your ability to cast spells, the deaf curse specifically gives you a workaround for your deafness.
Plus, "Retrieve a stored object" is an actual entry on the Action in Combat table. If you're not performing a "Retrieve Stored Item" action, I don't think the curse should be affecting you.
|
I agree with DankeSean and Glutton. None of the other curses affect your ability to cast spells, the deaf curse specifically gives you a workaround for your deafness.
Plus, "Retrieve a stored object" is an actual entry on the Action in Combat table. If you're not performing a "Retrieve Stored Item" action, I don't think the curse should be affecting you.
Good catch, Benchak. The curse seems to pretty clearly point to the specific action noted on the linked table. The bit about "unless it would normally take longer," is probably to account for spells or effects which might make it take longer to do the "retrieve a stored item" action.
I've been playing an oracle with the haunted flaw, and merely assumed that it referred to items stored in pouches and backpacks. Incidentally my character happens to have the Eschew Materials feat from multi-classing as a sorcerer and has a handy haversack. So, between the haversack's special ability that says "Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action" and having never "dropped" anything, the curse has never had any effect on my character.
I brought this exact question up during the playtest. I doubt it is how the rules where intended, but the curse can be read that way.
|
|
Plus, "Retrieve a stored object" is an actual entry on the Action in Combat table. If you're not performing a "Retrieve Stored Item" action, I don't think the curse should be affecting you.
This is the appropriate ruling. Using a spell component (and interestingly, retrieving ammunition) is not a "retrieve stored item" action, and therefore are not subject to this curse. Now grabbing that potion from your belt pouch, or wand, or scroll absolutely is, which is still a pretty significant hindrance. Worst though, your Handy Haversack won't function properly either.
Worst though, your Handy Haversack won't function properly either.
And why not?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The Haversack does function properly in that you won't take an attack of opportunity when you retrieve an item, but since the retrieval still takes a move equivalent (the same as if you didn't have a haversack) it still takes two rounds to do so if you're cursed.
I believe you're mistaken. The magic of the haversack allows the character to do what he otherwise wouldn't, in this case retrieving an object as a move action. It'd be the same case if an oracle with the lame curse put on a pair of boots of striding and springing to effectively cancel out the penalty to his base speed.
|
|
I believe you're mistaken. The magic of the haversack allows the character to do what he otherwise wouldn't, in this case retrieving an object as a move action. It'd be the same case if an oracle with the lame curse put on a pair of boots of striding and springing to effectively cancel out the penalty to his base speed.
According to Table 8-2 on page 183 the action "retrieve a stored item" is a move equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
The haversack text on page 516 states: "Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does."
The reason I think many people believe the Haversack is capable of so much more is due to its fluff text which states, "While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains." Unfortunately the rules after are pretty clear on what it's capable of.
The Haversack does function properly in that you won't take an attack of opportunity when you retrieve an item, but since the retrieval still takes a move equivalent (the same as if you didn't have a haversack) it still takes two rounds to do so if you're cursed.I believe you're mistaken. The magic of the haversack allows the character to do what he otherwise wouldn't, in this case retrieving an object as a move action. It'd be the same case if an oracle with the lame curse put on a pair of boots of striding and springing to effectively cancel out the penalty to his base speed.
The boots example mentioned would negate the speed penalty, yes, but you also wouldn't be moving as fast as a normal character wearing them- in other words, the curse is still in effect. A handy haversack working like you think it should would completely negate the curse and allow the oracle to act like someone un-cursed, which I don't think is something you should be able to buy for only 2,000 gold. It's still useful, both from an encumbrance/weight perspective and the fact that it does still allow you to do soemthing you normally couldn't- retrieving items without incurring an AoO. But I'd personally rule against haversacks completely eliminating the drawbacks of being haunted.
I agree with DankeSean and Glutton. None of the other curses affect your ability to cast spells, the deaf curse specifically gives you a workaround for your deafness.
Well, this is a bit debatable, since with the Clouded Vision Curse your spells are basically limited to Close Range, no matter what.
Of course you can still fire blindly (pun intended) Area spells out of your field of vision, but for target spells... since you don't have line of sight out of your 30-ft. (later on, 60-ft.) 'supersenses' area, you cannot use them at all in such a situation.
Since a lot of Divine spells do not require material components (most of them require the Holy Simbol as a Divine Focus, but that one is not technically a 'stored item' - you bear it all the time, usually around your neck), Haunted seems a lot more forgiving towards spellcasting (at least to me) than Clouded Vision - even with the strict reading of 'material components = stored item' (on which I do agree, btw).
Just my 2c.
Unfortunately the rules after are pretty clear on what it's capable of.
I'm not following you here. The part you quoted says that "Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action". That seems pretty clear to me. But, unless I've misunderstood what you're saying, you believe retrieving an object from a handy haversack would be a standard action for a haunted oracle; which would contradict the item's description.
|
|
I believe Mr Slanky has the right idea here.
Retrieving an item from the Haversack is a move action, just like retrieving an item from a backpack. However, your haunt will move things out of easy retrieval, causing it to become a standard action.
That might be counter to the Haversack's description, but it's also counter to what retrieval from a backpack usually is.
Unfortunately the rules after are pretty clear on what it's capable of.I'm not following you here. The part you quoted says that "Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action". That seems pretty clear to me. But, unless I've misunderstood what you're saying, you believe retrieving an object from a handy haversack would be a standard action for a haunted oracle; which would contradict the item's description.
However, retrieving it as a move action would contradict the curse. And since it's the same speed as normal, I think the statement that it takes a move action is more of a statement that it takes as long time as usual (as it was printed before the oracle, they didn't know that something would override it).
Being able to more or less completely negate a curse that is already easy on you for 2000gp seems very much against the RAI, and since the RAW could go both ways, I see no reason why not to stick with the RAI.
|
|
I believe Mr Slanky has the right idea here.
Retrieving an item from the Haversack is a move action, just like retrieving an item from a backpack. However, your haunt will move things out of easy retrieval, causing it to become a standard action.
That might be counter to the Haversack's description, but it's also counter to what retrieval from a backpack usually is.
And while being a standard action, it would still not provoke an attack of opportunity, since that's something the haversack does (which means that combined with the bag 'o holding capabilities of the haversack, all's not lost).
|
Y'know, when I think of the haunted curse, I always picture that the object in question is darting out of the way when the oracle reaches for it, like a game of cat and mouse. Even if it is on top of the bag, it can still dart to and fro to avoid your grasp.
But to put it in a rules perspective, the curse states a very firm minimum on the speed with which you can retrieve a stored item, which is a standard action. Curses can also only be removed/dispelled by the power of a Deity, and this is pretty much the only drawback to the curse (aside from the dropping item part, which is very minor in my opinion as if you drop it during battle you weren't intending to pick it up until all is said and done) so I would personally rule that the Havresack does not circumvent the curse from both a written and intent point of view.
However, your haunt will move things out of easy retrieval, causing it to become a standard action.
It seems to me that the haversack's ability to ensure that "When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary" would twart the haunt's efforts to move things around as you suggest.
Being able to more or less completely negate a curse that is already easy on you for 2000gp seems very much against the RAI
Take a look at the price of boots of striding and springing; 5500 gp. How much of that amount goes towards the +10 bonus to speed? A careful review of the guidelines for pricing magic items would seem to indicate that, without the skill bonus, the speed bonus would only costs 2000 gp. So negating a medium oracle's lameness curse would only cost about the same amount. A small sized oracle would actually win out over the curse with an extra 5-ft of speed with the same investment.
It seems to me that circumventing some of these curses with additional magic is very much in keeping with both the RAW and RAI. If you're willing to sacrifice the resources for it, why not? I don't believe curses are intended to be crippling or insurmountable.
James (i think it was?) said that not all the curses are made equally detrimental.
While the game mechanics aren't huge on the hearing or vision loss, there's some far greater impact on the general gameplay with those two compared to the rest.
I mean.. a limp can be overcome by riding a horse. You can't hear anymore opens a whole can of worms for the DM to adjudicate.
So yeah... some might actually be "insurmountable"... but if there's a valid option to get around it, then go to it.
I'm guessing the Synesthete psionic power would be incredibly useful for the hearing/vision cursed oracles.
As a side comment regarding the haversack. In earlier editions, you would have to unsling a backpack to access it. The haversack allows to reach into it and find the item without having to take it off.
I still generally require PCs without haversacks to use a move action to unsling a backpack and a move action to retrieve the item in question (unless the item they are looking for is attached to the outside), but that is a houserule by RAW.
What about the synesthete spell? It basically makes your face see sound, or hear light, so you no longer suffer the penalties/problems of not seeing or hearing.
Since it's using a different organ to create a form of seeing and hearing, would that work? Technically you aren't "hearing", you are seeing sounds and the power makes your brain interpret it properly to "hear".
What about the synesthete spell? It basically makes your face see sound, or hear light, so you no longer suffer the penalties/problems of not seeing or hearing.
Technically not Pathfinder, but the 3.5 synesthete psionic power would seem to present a valid means to compensate for either the blindness or deafness curse. Following the guidelines presented in the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values table, a continuous use magic item which grants the synesthete power would cost approximately 3000 gp; pretty much in-line with other such curse-compensating items. It'd be a good solution if your GM accepts it.
Being able to more or less completely negate a curse that is already easy on you for 2000gp seems very much against the RAITake a look at the price of boots of striding and springing; 5500 gp. How much of that amount goes towards the +10 bonus to speed? A careful review of the guidelines for pricing magic items would seem to indicate that, without the skill bonus, the speed bonus would only costs 2000 gp. So negating a medium oracle's lameness curse would only cost about the same amount. A small sized oracle would actually win out over the curse with an extra 5-ft of speed with the same investment.
It seems to me that circumventing some of these curses with additional magic is very much in keeping with both the RAW and RAI. If you're willing to sacrifice the resources for it, why not? I don't believe curses are intended to be crippling or insurmountable.
Boots of Striding and Springing do nothing for you if you have the lame curse. The lame curse sets you speed to 10 if you move 30 or faster or if you less than 30 sets it to 5. So even if you had a +10 movement you base speed would be 40 and the curse sets you to 10 still. I know this one because I was considering the lame curse for a Rage Prophet until I read it set you to 10 speed.
As for the Haunted curse the retrieving items is just part of the curse. There is also dropping an item where moves 10 feet away in a random direction. Doesn't sound too bad but consider being disarmed of you wand only to have skitter the feet of the near by enemy cleric who uses it against you.
As well seeing as you still have to use the retrieve an item action to get something from Haver Sack it won't work negate the curse either. All the sack does remove the attack of opportunity and act as bag of holding. Well worth 2000 GP to be able to pull a wand out as move action and use it as standard action with no threat of an attack of opportunity.
Now I can see an argument made that the Haver sack doesn't say you are using the the specific "retrieve and item" move equivalent action but providing you with it's own move equivalent action to retrieve and item but I think that's really stretching it.
|
|
Boots of Striding and Springing do nothing for you if you have the lame curse. The lame curse sets you speed to 10 if you move 30 or faster or if you less than 30 sets it to 5. So even if you had a +10 movement you base speed would be 40 and the curse sets you to 10 still. I know this one because I was considering the lame curse for a Rage Prophet until I read it set you to 10 speed.
Minor correction:
Per the APG:
Lame: One of your legs is permanently wounded,
reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed
is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet,
your speed is reduced by 5 feet.
So, pre-boots your base speed is 30', which the curse reduces to 20' Which the boots then add to giving you a speed of 30' again.
You have not really "bought off" the curse, you are still moving 10' slower then an other character of the same race who is also wearing the boots.
As for the Haunted, I agree with you. The haversack would still stop the AoO, but it would take a standard action to get items out of it. It may be on top, but you may have a hard time getting a grip on it (it twists at the wrong time, you get bumped and it moves to the edge of the pack instead of the middle where you expect it, etc). As for the dropping things, We play with the crit miss rule (roll a 1 on an attack and you roll again to see if it is just a miss or a crit miss, kind of like confirming crit hits), so an oracle with the haunted curse will drop their weapon on 1's more often, etc..
Boots of Striding and Springing do nothing for you if you have the lame curse. The lame curse sets you speed to 10 if you move 30 or faster or if you less than 30 sets it to 5. So even if you had a +10 movement you base speed would be 40 and the curse sets you to 10 still. I know this one because I was considering the lame curse for a Rage Prophet until I read it set you to 10 speed.
Minor correction:
Per the APG:
Lame: One of your legs is permanently wounded,
reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed
is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet,
your speed is reduced by 5 feet.So, pre-boots your base speed is 30', which the curse reduces to 20' Which the boots then add to giving you a speed of 30' again.
You have not really "bought off" the curse, you are still moving 10' slower then an other character of the same race who is also wearing the boots.
As for the Haunted, I agree with you. The haversack would still stop the AoO, but it would take a standard action to get items out of it. It may be on top, but you may have a hard time getting a grip on it (it twists at the wrong time, you get bumped and it moves to the edge of the pack instead of the middle where you expect it, etc). As for the dropping things, We play with the crit miss rule (roll a 1 on an attack and you roll again to see if it is just a miss or a crit miss, kind of like confirming crit hits), so an oracle with the haunted curse will drop their weapon on 1's more often, etc..
I stand corrected. I was reading it as your base land speed was set to 10 not decreased by 10. That's not so bad. I should read more carefully. So my Barbarian lame oracle rage prophet is possible. Sure you only move 30 instead of 40. Much better than the first time I read it.
The major point of not needing Eschew Materials as a Oracle is most of your spells will have DF as part of it and an Oracle ignores DF as part of their casting ability. They are considered themselves to be the focus, so that whole section is kind of moot.