I did a bit of a study on the viability of TWF in preparation for a new campaign and I'd be happy to share what I learned.
I created a spreadsheet to track the math. It gets a bit hairy when you start trying to track critical damage and many iterative attacks.
My assumptions were as simple as I could make them while still trying to allow for a bit of "reality". I assumed that 20% of the targets would have an AC of the fighter's BAB+10. 40% would be below in 10% increments, and 40% above in 10% increments. So if you were first level with a BAB of 1, your AC spread would be 7/8/9/10/11/11/12/13/14/15. I recognize this is arbitrary, and that every game is different, but you have to start somewhere.
The fighter is human for the bonus feat, and put his +2 in strength. I modeled kukri and short swords throughout my level span comparisons. Kukri have the best crit ratio available (18-20 x2), while short swords have higher damage, while still being a light weapon. The idea was to not suffer the extra to-hit penalty of using a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, and to benefit from weapon focus, specialization and improved critical to both weapons.
What I found out is that short swords slightly beat out kukri in the first five levels, and that a two-handed weapon has parity... better under haste, but haste is the exception in the first five levels. Please note that my testing did not attempt to measure intangibles, and with more feats to spare, a two-handed fighter will have more intangibles to his advantage.
My assumption for the TWF for first fives levels were:
1st: TWF
1st: Double Slice
1st: Power Attack
2nd: Weapon Focus
3rd: Combat Reflexes
4th: Weapon Specialization
5th: Step Up
Kukri: 22.66 Short Swords: 23.46
I do not doubt that there were more optimum choices, and I invite criticism. The first level feats I think are optimum. Combat reflexes is an intangible, but with a high dex and some awesome awesomeness from the two-weapon warrior subclass... you betcha!
Moving into 6th-10th levels, the kukri zooms past the short swords as improved critical and critical focus kick in.
6th: ITWF
7th: Lunge
8th: Improved Critical
9th: Critical Focus
10th: Greater Weapon Focus
Kukri: 98.78 Short Swords: 90.96
From 11th-15th, Kukri establish dominance. Bleeding critical matters, unless I read it wrong, especially when you're critting plenty.
11th: Two Weapon Rend
12th: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13th: Bleeding Critical
14th: Greater Weapon Specialization
15th: Blinding Critical
Kukri: 219.22 Short Swords: 207.98
My weapon assumptions were modest for magic. I didn't really try to follow through on a two-handed fighter comp because I didn't have the time to try optimizing feats for one, not that these are optimized for TWF.
Things that I learned from gaming the spreadsheet: crit is king starting level 8. Remember that x2 is the bottom, x3 is next, x4 and 19-20 x2 are the same, and 18-20 x2 is best. Would dual scimitars or rapiers be better at 11+ using Two Weapon Warrior? Yes, but the migration seems prohibitive. In addition, you're sacrificing 5% to-hit chance on both weapons, 10% later. Also, using a larger main hand weapon just doesn't pay off in the medium or long run, although you will benefit from it at first.
Haste, I think will propel two-handed weapons to parity or beyond once I have a chance to model them fairly. Right now, using rather crude feats, they are getting wooped. Strong items or buffs would just make it worse.
I didn't go beyond 15 because that doesn't happen often in the games we play. After a year you're ready to move on to a new campaign.
[edit] I was so impressed with the kukri, that I sent off for a nice one from Tora blade company in Nepal. Not cheap but wow... 14.6" of face-chopping awesome with a handle. If it's good enough for the chick in Resident Evil, it's.... sorry, what was I saying?
PS: if you try to model crits, remember that you have to model both chance of crit and crit confirmation chance when making the calculation. So a kukri at 8th level with a 50% to-hit chance has a 30% chance of critting (15-20) x 50% chance of confirmation = 15% crit damage add per hit for full crit damage. At 9th level with critical focus, it's 30% crit chance x 70% confirm chance = 21% crit damage add per hit. Less with iterative hits and less damage to off-hand due to power attack, so each has to be calculated individually.
What about going exotic Weapon Sawtooth Sabres they are 1d8 18-20 and count as light weapons
Two comments:
1) I'd take Weapon Focus at 1st level and Power Attack at 2nd. Because you are already giving up -2/-2 for TWF, having an extra +1 on attack rolls is huge when you start taking a -1 penalty on attack rolls to add +2 damage. If your Dex modifier is at least +2 more than your Str modifier, it may be worth taking Weapon Finesse.
2) Critical hits, while increasingly better as you go up in level (and start adding base damage bonuses), aren't tremendously better for a large part of your career. A weapon with more base damage can be just about as effective. If you don't mind using one of your 1st level feats for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (pushing other feat choices up one level), or being a race other than human (specifically dwarf, gnome, or half-orc), a double weapon can be a very efficient choice (allowing consolidation of the Weapon Focus chain, the ability to switch between fighting double weapon or two-handed style as a free action each round, some have extra weapon options, etc.).
or being a race other than human (specifically dwarf, gnome, or half-orc), a double weapon can be a very efficient choice (allowing consolidation of the Weapon Focus chain, the ability to switch between fighting double weapon or two-handed style as a free action each round, some have extra weapon options, etc.).
Half Elves can now get a free (rather, at the expense of a skill focus) exotic weapon too. The bonus is that it can be any exotic weapon you like :)
The D20PFSRD shows Sawtooth Sabre as 19-20 x2 which is good, but not competitive. Does your source book show different? Which book is it, out of curiosity?
One of the flaws involved in trying to optimize a character for s single purpose is that you necessarily make sub-optimal choices in other areas such as defense and utility. I try to avoid that but obsession is funny that way.
Taking weapon focus before power attack calculates out to slightly sub-optimal, assuming no buffs/only strength as an adder. The difference is 12.88 for Power Attack and 12.55 Weapon Focus. This is without a magic or masterwork weapon.
As for criticals, the payoff is at 8th level when your crit chance doubles. Up until then it lags a bit. Switching weapons at that point, however, isn't practical that I can figure out.
I certainly considered other races and racial double weapons as alternatives, but it didn't play for several reasons. First, a human can chose to put their attribute bonus in strength. That's critical for this build. Also, the extra feat allows the human to train an exotic weapon, so an alternate race would be a wash except for "other" benefits. Finally, none of the double weapons measure up from a crit perspective, although two-bladed sword comes closest.
Great discussion. You guys are making me think!
"Hi Chops. My friends call me Chops. My enemies are called Chopped."
My bad I was using the Elven Curve Blade crit range, I have been doing the same debate between a two handed Elven Curve Blade or two Saw Tooth Sabres
I did a bit of a study on the viability of TWF in preparation for a new campaign and I'd be happy to share what I learned.
Have you done any math with the new Falcata? If you use the feat Oversized TWF you have the same modifiers as light weapons and your doing 1d8 19-20(x3). Course it takes two MORE feats to do so on an already feat hungry build.
I did a bit of a study on the viability of TWF in preparation for a new campaign and I'd be happy to share what I learned.Have you done any math with the new Falcata? If you use the feat Oversized TWF you have the same modifiers as light weapons and your doing 1d8 19-20(x3). Course it takes two MORE feats to do so on an already feat hungry build.
I wasn't aware there were any PF splatbooks out for PF. Where do you find Oversized TWF?
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Anecdotally, I've noticed that fighting big guys that are easy to hit and have a ton of hit points and little to no dr(a lot of the giants in runelords fell into this category) are going to be cusinarted by two-weapon fighters. And a larger harder to hit or guys with DR are much better when you have a large weapon to deal with things, especially low to mid levels. My dervish priest, when she finally got charged up with her three spells was just devastating and that was before pfrpg was out. She was fairly comparable to our two weapon fighter for the few rounds that she had everything up and he was using the Book of Nine Swords.
Add in weapons that have burst damage(both of mine were +4 swords good aligned and one was silver while the other was cold iron) and a ridiculously high AC and it was a devastating couple of rounds for anything in the room. It just went down. Some 6 attacks or something ridiculous and I would average about 45 a hit against evil guys or even more against evil outsiders.
I'm surprised I haven't been schooled on feats by now. I fully expected someone to pop up and say "hey why don't you use the 'win' feat. Take that and you win automatically".
I also kind of expected someone to throw down on me with the PWNTWF feat that you take at first level and you can do 29.7 times the damage of TWF using a two-handed weapon without taking another feat.
If you ladies and gentlemen aren't going to make quick work of me, then I'm going to have to do research on my own. Not fair.
if 3.5 is allowed, try this for a TWFer. It's not a Fighter but blows them out of the water for damage.
Human Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 5/Swordsage 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Rogue 5
Feats:
Craven feat (Champions of Ruin Forgotten Realms) which adds +1 dmg/lvl to sneak attack.
Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel): add Rogue and Swashbuckler lvls for grace, AC bonus and sneak attack.
Shadowblade (Book of Nine Swords/Tome of Battle): Add Dex mod to damage.
1 : TWF, Craven
2 :
3 : Double Slice
4 :
5 : Daring Outlaw
6 :
7 : Staggering Strike
8 :
9 : Shadowblade
You're adding Int bns, Dex bns and Str bns plus your character level to damage. You're adding Int bns, Dex bns, Wis bns to AC. Plus your sneak attack is +2d6 from Assassin's Stance. Plus your AC is boosted from Grace. Plus you get Weapon Focus (dagger), +1 to initiative, Wis bns to AC for free. Plu
There's another maneouvre from ToB called Sudden Leap that allows you to make a Jump (Acrobatics) check as a swift action. Because it's an Acrobatics check with Dexterity modifying and a class skill you should be able to clear 10' so you can't be full attacked in return.
Pick up a pair of claws of the leopard (Complete Adventurer) (allows you to pounce as a charge).
Assuming you win initiative:
Surprise rnd: Charge and full attack, sneak attacking their flat-footed selves.
1st rnd: Full attack again then jump 10' back. OR deal a Staggering Strike w/feinting to slowly finish them off.
2nd rnd: Tumble into flank to finish them off. OR if they're already dead charge his mate.
rinse and repeat. win.