I think the new alchemist class is pretty interesting, and I've been considering playing one, but something about them really bothers me - the daily limit on their bombs, which is their main attack. Why was putting a (level + Int mod) limit of bombs per day really necessary? Our group is level 12, so the alchemist bombs would be doing 5d6 + Int mod damage. That looks impressive at a glance, but it really isn't. Our barbarian and arcane archer can do far more damage than that, and there's no daily limit on how many times a Barbarian can swing his sword or an archer can shoot his bow!
The alchemist bomb damage is only a little bit more than the warlock's eldritch blast (same damage, the alchemist just adds his Int bonus), and that class was far from overpowered being able to use its EB at-will. Our warlock regularly had by far the lowest damage per round of any character in the group. I can understand why the developers would want to err on the conservative side, but did the playtesting really suggest that the bombs would be overpowered if they didn't have a daily limit? Considering my groups extensive experience with warlocks, I find it hard to understand why a daily limit on alchemist bombs was considered necessary.
You really need to see it in action in a group before you dismiss the bombs as being weak. the three games I have played that included the Alchemist at various levels they tended to steal the show. Having an incredibly low miss chance, and getting multiple bombs later on really makes the difference. There are also tons of enemies that the Alchemist has no problem hurting that other members may need special tools to affect, if at all.
The current limit is very generous considering Alchemists tend to make Int their highest stat. Also there is the Extra Bombs feat if they find themselves frequently running out.
If the bombs were all they got I might agree, but they the extracts , discoverys and mutagens on top of the bombs.
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I think the new alchemist class is pretty interesting, and I've been considering playing one, but something about them really bothers me - the daily limit on their bombs, which is their main attack. Why was putting a (level + Int mod) limit of bombs per day really necessary? Our group is level 12, so the alchemist bombs would be doing 5d6 + Int mod damage. That looks impressive at a glance, but it really isn't. Our barbarian and arcane archer can do far more damage than that, and there's no daily limit on how many times a Barbarian can swing his sword or an archer can shoot his bow!
The alchemist bomb damage is only a little bit more than the warlock's eldritch blast (same damage, the alchemist just adds his Int bonus), and that class was far from overpowered being able to use its EB at-will. Our warlock regularly had by far the lowest damage per round of any character in the group. I can understand why the developers would want to err on the conservative side, but did the playtesting really suggest that the bombs would be overpowered if they didn't have a daily limit? Considering my groups extensive experience with warlocks, I find it hard to understand why a daily limit on alchemist bombs was considered necessary.
5d6+ Int + Point Blank shot + Deadly Throw is more than enough damage at level 12, especially considering you rarely need to beat an AC of 12-13 to hit anything. Not to mention that misses aren't even really misses. An alchemist who has a decent int score at level 12 would have at minimum 17 splash damage (If they fail a reflex) on 8 squares around the target.
Eldritch blasts were not AoE attacks either.
Bombs are room clearing attacks and allowing unlimited uses is just crazy. Up to level 6 they will almost certainly clear a group of weenies that would otherwise provide for flanking and annoyance in harrying the party.
Plus I counter that the bomb is by FAR not the only thing the alchemist has to rely on. A heavy armor wearing face tearing mutagen alchemist is a scary thing indeed.
I agree with Scipion alchemist steal the show pretty often, and I don't think that the bombs having a daily limit is at all limiting. I also think that if you made it an at will power it would not change all that much.
What the others said: Bombs are a special attack. They're not meant to be the only offensive thing an alchemist gets: With extracts and mutagens, they can turn themselves into juggernauts of destruction. When they had their alchemical bender, the will draw steal and go to town.
Even simple weapons can do terrible, terrible damage, when used by a guy who just drank something that gave him +8 to strength, and then drank something that turned him into an ogre for more strength (on top of the strength belt. And the other stuff he just quaffed, like haste).
If the bombs were all they got I might agree, but they the extracts , discoverys and mutagens on top of the bombs.
Extracts contain mostly defensive, buffing and utility spells. They're no substitute for bombs if you run out.
Mutagens give a bonus to your physical ability score(s), but unless you've really built your character for melee, he still won't be very effective.
Poisons are laughable. Many creatures are outright immune, the save DCs tend to be very low while fortitude is often the best saving throw for many monsters, and they're also often outrageously expensive, even if you make them yourself.
5d6+ Int + Point Blank shot + Deadly Throw is more than enough damage at level 12,
I assume you mean Deadly Aim? That feat can't be used with touch attacks or splash weapons.
Eldritch blasts were not AoE attacks either.
On the contrary, Warlocks can learn blast shape invocations that allow their eldritch blast to hit multiple targets.
Bombs are room clearing attacks and allowing unlimited uses is just crazy. Up to level 6 they will almost certainly clear a group of weenies that would otherwise provide for flanking and annoyance in harrying the party.
A 5 ft radius explosion is hardly a room clearing attack. Wizards can hurl spells that affect areas 4x, 8x or even larger radius and for alot more damage than bombs.
Plus I counter that the bomb is by FAR not the only thing the alchemist has to rely on. A heavy armor wearing face tearing mutagen...
It seems to me that people will either focus on bombs, or focus on mutagens and melee. One can't be very effective at both. Ogre's guide agrees with me on that.
To be fair, explosive bomb is both a 10' raidus blast, which can get fairly room clearing, and the extra damage from being set on fire by it can also be hilariously advantageous, especially against spellcasters (concentration checks!).
What I have noticed, even at level 7, is that the alchemist has a distinct advantage over EVERY single offensive caster. His bombs do not allow SR.
A recent encounter in my game which was party Vrs a rakshasa sorc1 and a dozen charmed native hunters (2nd level rangers). The 7th level alchemist downed three of the rangers, and pretty much turned the fight in regards to the rakshasa. The rakshasa had Imp Invisibility up, but the alchemist popped a See Invisibility potion (made earlier that week). He hit the rakshasa with explosive bomb, which sets the rakshasa on fire. Being on fire gave away his location, and even though the archer's arrows couldn't get through DR 15, and the figher was barely getting 1-4 points through over the DR, the alchemist just keep lobbing explosive bombs, heaping on 20 points of damage each round, catching the other enemies in the blast, and missing allys (thanks to the precise bomb discovery). The rakshasa's SR of 25 was useless in that fight.
Personally, I'm glad the alchemist has a limited number of bombs if only for versimilitude: if he could throw an infinite number of bombs each day....where would he carry all the vials?
I think a neat fix would be to change the fluff of the bombs. I would suggest changing it so that the alchemist is just really good at using alchemical items, so his bombs are REALLY just alchemist fire or flasks of acid that he tweaked.
He would get a daily limit of FREE bombs, but then would have to spend money and encumberance for any EXTRA bombs.
I think part of the reason that Bombs aren't unlimited (But still have plenty of usages) is to keep the Alchemist from becoming a one-trick-pony. Which is a bit annoying for a class, IMO.
Don't forget, they get to add their Intelligence modifier to both direct and splash damage with any Alchemical splash weapons they use too. I think having them not be unlimited helps balance the class by making them conserve their resources, carry extra alchemicals for additional firepower, and not just stand there throwing bombs all day.
Some folks might disagree, but personally I prefer that you have to think carefully about how you use your bomb allotment.
Extracts contain mostly defensive, buffing and utility spells. They're no substitute for bombs if you run out.
Nah, but the weapon you wield with your alchemically-induced hyperdrive are.
Mutagens give a bonus to your physical ability score(s), but unless you've really built your character for melee, he still won't be very effective.
There's always ranged weapons.
I think the problem is that you want an alchemist that focusses on bombs, and on bombs alone. I don't think that was the intention of the class.
The intention is to guzzle down alchemical substances like they're softdrinks and then go Mr. Hyde on the enemy.
Bombs are a bonus. A side order. They can be quite nice, but they're not meant to carry the class alone.
Bombing alchemists have some options:
Beyond that, you could also talk your GM into allowing an alternate class feature, where you can use extract slots to create more bombs in some way.
If the Fast Bombs discovery didn't exist, then I think unlimited bombs would be fine; heck, (level + Int mod) is practically unlimited as it is, after a certain level. But if you're throwing two or three bombs every round, I don't have a problem with running out.
They are very powerful in our 11th level game the alcs bombs are very effective and he didnt even specialize in bombs. You need to see it in game to apprieate them
If the bombs were all they got I might agree, but they the extracts , discoverys and mutagens on top of the bombs.Extracts contain mostly defensive, buffing and utility spells. They're no substitute for bombs if you run out.
Mutagens give a bonus to your physical ability score(s), but unless you've really built your character for melee, he still won't be very effective.
Poisons are laughable. Many creatures are outright immune, the save DCs tend to be very low while fortitude is often the best saving throw for many monsters, and they're also often outrageously expensive, even if you make them yourself.
5d6+ Int + Point Blank shot + Deadly Throw is more than enough damage at level 12,I assume you mean Deadly Aim? That feat can't be used with touch attacks or splash weapons.
Eldritch blasts were not AoE attacks either.On the contrary, Warlocks can learn blast shape invocations that allow their eldritch blast to hit multiple targets.
Bombs are room clearing attacks and allowing unlimited uses is just crazy. Up to level 6 they will almost certainly clear a group of weenies that would otherwise provide for flanking and annoyance in harrying the party.A 5 ft radius explosion is hardly a room clearing attack. Wizards can hurl spells that affect areas 4x, 8x or even larger radius and for alot more damage than bombs.
Plus I counter that the bomb is by FAR not the only thing the alchemist has to rely on. A heavy armor wearing face tearing mutagen...It seems to me that people will either focus on bombs, or focus on mutagens and melee. One can't be very effective at both. Ogre's guide agrees with me on that.
You played one yet?
They are very powerful in our 11th level game the alcs bombs are very effective and he didnt even specialize in bombs. You need to see it in game to apprieate them
Same here. They're not quite that high, yet (I think it's 10, so not that far away), just hanging between The Jackal's Price and The End of Eternity (literally hanging :))
The alchemist in that party is mainly a combat monster, but with fast bombs, she can devastate when it counts.
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Like others have mentioned, it seems like the OP wants an Alchemist for whom bombs are the main course and the mutagens and extracts are just bonus side stuff, which is contrary to how the class is set up.
It's pretty do-able with the Extra Bombs feat, but really you should at least consider taking advantage of the class' other (very nice) toys. With mutagens and the multitude of good buffs available as extracts, you can be a melee or ranged powerhouse and the bombs will just be gravy.
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Like others have mentioned, it seems like the OP wants an Alchemist for whom bombs are the main course and the mutagens and extracts are just bonus side stuff, which is contrary to how the class is set up.
It's pretty do-able with the Extra Bombs feat, but really you should at least consider taking advantage of the class' other (very nice) toys. With mutagens and the multitude of good buffs available as extracts, you can be a melee or ranged powerhouse and the bombs will just be gravy.
I think he's agreeing with you. He COULD be a melee or ranged powerhouse with a side of bombs. But that isn't what he wants.