You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
You can modify a spell to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.
So which is better? Getting +2 to the DC because you upped the spell two levels with Heighten spell, or forcing the target to pass two saves (against its normal DC) in order to throw off the spell?
Forcing two saves is going to be better unless the chance to save is extremely high.
Hmm.. It's going to be confusing if there are going to be feats in PFRPG that have the same name as 3.5 feats but do something completely different.
In any case; Persistent Spell looks much more worth it than Heighten Spell.
In any case; Persistent Spell looks much more worth it than Heighten Spell.
Though Heighten Spell does actually raise the spell level, which has other uses outside the DC.
In any case; Persistent Spell looks much more worth it than Heighten Spell.Though Heighten Spell does actually raise the spell level, which has other uses outside the DC.Question on Persistant spell.
If I us Persistant spell on a spell that allows ongoin saves. Hold person for example. Do they only make to saves vs the initial casting of the spell or do they need to make two saves each round to break free?
Very Good Question.
I too would like to Know that ??
** spoiler omitted **
So which is better? Getting +2 to the DC because you upped the spell two levels with Heighten spell, or forcing the target to pass two saves (against its normal DC) in order to throw off the spell?
The two saves is the better option
each level you raise the spell by adds a 5% chance of them missing the save (1/20= .05= 5% ) So raising a spell 2 levels would be a +10% chance of them missing the save.
I can't show you the excel, but forcing 2 saves halves the chances of them making it. Depending on what roll they need to save it changes the odds. If they need a 3 or a 19 to save you decrease their chances by 9% ... roughly the same. If they need a 4 or 19 you've decreased their chances of making it by 12.5%. If they need an ll you've decreased their chances of making it by 25 % ... the same effect as heightening a spell by five levels (by which point you really should have a better spell to throw at them)
IMO Heighten Spell wins hands down when you factor in creating scrolls, potions and other assorted magic items...as well as resisting dispel checks.
What scrolls do you use that require saving throws? Whats the advantage to heightning a potion? Dispel checks take caster level into account , not the level of the spell. (except to determine which spell gets the dispel attempt first)
Also, due to the restrictions of Persistant Spell's text, the volume of spells that the feat can be applied to is significantly lesser than the number of spells that Heighten Spell can modify.
what spell would you want to apply it to that you cant?
In the end, it boils down to what the spell-caster's strategy - if the player don't care about any of the above things, Persistant Spell can be and is probably superior to Heighten Spell. If the spellcaster wants more utility out of the feat, then Heighten Spell is a much better choice.
The only uses i can see for heighten spell are going through the (rarely used) globes of invulnerability and casting dancing lights in deeper darkness.
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forcing 2 saves halves the chances of them making it.
Incorrect. It reduces the chances more for those who have less than 50% chance of success, and less for those with more than 50% chance of success.
r = real chance to succeed
f = real chance to fail
p = single-roll chance succeed
r = p^2
f = (1 - p)^2 + 2 * p * (1-p) (or, more simply, 1-p^2)
So a 75% chance of success gives a 56.25% chance of succeed when two rolls are forced (or 43.75% chance of failure). A 25% chance of success becomes a 6.25% chance of success.
The "heighten spell" effect is -0.1 to p (under normal circumstances) when raising by two levels. The break even point would be where the "r" of p is equal to p - 0.1.
p - 0.1 = p^2 => -p^2 + p - 0.1 = 0
The solutions are at 11% and 88%. Both of these are close to the error points caused by a 1 and 20 being automatic failure and success (respectively). Since p must go below 5 in the lower case the analysis is invalid there (ie, persistent *will* be better). In the upper case a value of 0.9 or 0.95 goes as follows:
For 0.9 base chance (need a 2 to fail): Heighten +2 gives them a 0.8 chance of success, Persistent has 0.81 chance of success.
For 0.95 base chance (need *exactly* a 1 to fail): Heighten +2 gives them a 0.85 chance of success, with persistent at .9025.
If they could succeed on a one if not for automatic failure, but only barely, heighten is still better (0.9 versus 0.9025) but not enough to be of note. After that heighten is useless.
So there you have it. Heighten is only better for modifying the chance for saving throws *if* their modifier is between 1 and 3 points (inclusive) less than the DC of the spell unmodified. Otherwise, persistent is better. Oh, heighten spell is also better if you want more flexibility and the other goodies it gets.
Now I just have to hope I didn't screw up my math somewhere or I'll really look like an arse.
Maybe i'm being quite obvious, but the choice depends heavily on the character's build. I think both feats would be really nice for, let's say, an enchanter (specialist wizard), who relies mostly on spells that allow saving throws (charm and compulsion effects), or an illusionist. Anyway, IMO, Heighten Spell is a "must have" for any spellcaster who focuses on metamagic (wich means picking up two or more metamagic feats and applying them frequently), since your already changing the spells' levels on a regular basis.
And i beg you pardon for my poor english... =P
Incorrect. It reduces the chances more for those who have less than 50% chance of success, and less for those with more than 50% chance of success.
I did this part right on excel, I just didn't do a great job of explaining it in the opening paragraph.
The solutions are at 11% and 88%
3 and 17 is where i have them for 2 levels, so we're spot on there.
What goodies, honestly, does heighten spell get you?
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Incorrect. It reduces the chances more for those who have less than 50% chance of success, and less for those with more than 50% chance of success.
I did this part right on excel, I just didn't do a great job of explaining it in the opening paragraph.
The solutions are at 11% and 88%
3 and 17 is where i have them for 2 levels, so we're spot on there.
What goodies, honestly, does heighten spell get you?
Since the spell is actually the higher level it is more resistant to thinks like globe of invulnerability or spell reflection, and can be used to counter higher spells. A really really heightened light spell would counter a deeper darkness because it's based only on spell level. There are also class abilities (such as the Life subschool's first ability) that have effects based on spell level that would scale with heighten.
There are probably a half-dozen other benefits I'm not thinking of.
Its debated as to what effects Heighten spell has on spell augmented by other metamagic feats.Maybe i'm being quite obvious, but the choice depends heavily on the character's build. I think both feats would be really nice for, let's say, an enchanter (specialist wizard), who relies mostly on spells that allow saving throws (charm and compulsion effects), or an illusionist. Anyway, IMO, Heighten Spell is a "must have" for any spellcaster who focuses on metamagic (wich means picking up two or more metamagic feats and applying them frequently), since your already changing the spells' levels on a regular basis.
And i beg you pardon for my poor english... =P
At any rate, under "normal circumstances" (e.g. a monster has a 50% chance of saving normally), Persistent Spell is much better (e.g. 50% -> 25%, which is like a +5 bonus to save DC, compared to a +1 bonus to DC for Heighten Spell). Of course, you can use both feats together.
Anyway, IMO, Heighten Spell is a "must have" for any spellcaster who focuses on metamagic (wich means picking up two or more metamagic feats and applying them frequently), since your already changing the spells' levels on a regular basis.
To be clear, if you cast an Empowered Fireball (3rd level spell, +2 level kick for Empower = 5th level slot), having Heighten Spell doesn't make that work as a 5th level spell and have the save DC of a 5th level spell for free. You could cast a Heightened (for +2 levels) Fireball out of the same 5th level slot as a 5th level spell with a 5th level spell's DC, but that spell is not Empowered.
Since the spell is actually the higher level it is more resistant to thinks like globe of invulnerability or spell reflection
Why not just use the higher level spell in the first place?
and can be used to counter higher spells
I don't see what you're talking about here. A fireball counteracts a fireball, a heightened fireball, or an empowered fireball.
A really really heightened light spell would counter a deeper darkness because it's based only on spell level.
The only use I've seen for heighten spell so far.
There are also class abilities (such as the Life subschool's first ability) that have effects based on spell level that would scale with heighten.
Why not just use the real X level spell and get the same benefit?
There are probably a half-dozen other benefits I'm not thinking of
I'm drawing a blank.
and can be used to counter higher spellsI don't see what you're talking about here. A fireball counteracts a fireball, a heightened fireball, or an empowered fireball.
He's probably talking about Improved Counterspell -- it lets you counter any spell of a school by using a higher level spell of the same school.
So if I'm a sorcerer and Magic Missile is the only Evocation on my list, I can still counter an incoming Fireball by Heightening MM to 4th level.
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and can be used to counter higher spellsI don't see what you're talking about here. A fireball counteracts a fireball, a heightened fireball, or an empowered fireball.
He's probably talking about Improved Counterspell -- it lets you counter any spell of a school by using a higher level spell of the same school.
So if I'm a sorcerer and Magic Missile is the only Evocation on my list, I can still counter an incoming Fireball by Heightening MM to 4th level.
This.
Also, when casting a spell at an opponent you don't always have a higher level spell of the type you need. Maybe you only have 2 spells known that are 7th level, and anything less will bounce back, but those two spells known are a buff and a fire spell. If the opponent is immune to fire, and the buff doesn't happen to be helpful, you'll need to heighten a lower spell.
I agree that this isn't too useful for a wizard since they can't make this choice spontaneously.
But basically, Heighten is the way to make up for only having the spell needed at X-1 or lower level when you need one of level X to do the job, regardless of its direct effects. This includes counter-spelling, piercing certain defensive spells, some class abilities and a few other things. The boost to DC doesn't hurt either.
Not a huge list, but enough to make persistent less of a "duh" even if it's only for sorcerer.
Lastly, it's been argued by some that the wording of Heighten Spell is such that when coupled with other metamagic the DC goes up with no extra increase. In other words, an empowered heightened fireball could use a 5th level slot and act as a 5th level spell for all variables (including DC). This is a dubious thing at best, but I don't believe I've seen a FAQ on it. It would help explain why the Arcane sorcerer bloodline arcana does not let a spell that's modified by heighten gain *any* benefit at all, rather than just no benefit from the heightened portion. If this point is accepted then heighten becomes a very very *very* important feat for any metamagic-based caster.
Actually, as far as i can see, you can apply only one metamagic effect when using Metamagic Mastery (from 8th-level Universalist Wizard) or a similar ability, like those granted by the sorcerer's Arcane bloodline. When you really prepare a spell (or cast the spell spontaneously) modified by metamagic, you can apply as many metamagic as you're able and willing to (considering all the limitations of max spell level and so forth).
And for the description of Heighten spell, i understand that you treat the spell as a cast/prepared spell of the effective spell level in all aspects, but the feat doesn't enhance your character's caster level.
But now i can see that, if you want to choose between Heighten or Persistent, the last is way more effective.
He's probably talking about Improved Counterspell -- it lets you counter any spell of a school by using a higher level spell of the same school.
So if I'm a sorcerer and Magic Missile is the only Evocation on my list, I can still counter an incoming Fireball by Heightening MM to 4th level.
Does that actually work? Heightening is metamagick, which is a full round action for sorcerers. You can't hold a full round action.
Its usually much easier to hold a scorching ray for when they start casting and force a pair of DC 30 concentration checks.
Lastly, it's been argued by some that the wording of Heighten Spell is such that when coupled with other metamagic the DC goes up with no extra increase.
A feat that requires rules lawyering munchkin sophistry to be useful isn't very useful.