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Okay I don't get it...
Either this PrC is overpowered and the EK is the proper power level OR this PrC is the proper power level and the EK is underpowered. I see people who railed againt us who thinks the EK is underpowered and should have some actual class ability as OMG that broken saying that this is okay...really?
On a side note, ALL the reason I have been given by the developers as to why the EK didn't get class abilities in line with the holy vindicator is kinda null and void now ain't it. So honestly, the reason the EK was made so bad was because they just don't like the fighter mage concept...but a fighter cleric is perfectly fine (course as a game design it's not as the PrC makes you wait 8 levels to play your concept...which is another issue with any of the MC PrC...this one is just less suckage as it doesn't make you MC into horribleness beforehand).
I would not say "much better"; the powers you get from levels 1-4 are pretty tame (and dull), and you lose a level of spellcasting.I agree. What is gained is much better than what is lost at that point.One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
I mean the weapon and armor proficiencies to boot.
Okay I don't get it...
Either this PrC is overpowered and the EK is the proper power level OR this PrC is the proper power level and the EK is underpowered. I see people who railed againt us who thinks the EK is underpowered and should have some actual class ability as OMG that broken saying that this is okay...really?
I'll go for option (c): The Holy Vindicator is not very good because the abilities it has are pretty weak compared to the lost spellcasting levels, and the Eldritch Knight is not very good because it requires too many spellcaster levels to enter (unless you use another prestige class like Arcane Archer or Dragon Disciple to enter it).
I mean the weapon and armor proficiencies to boot.
If I wanted to lose a level of spellcasting in exchange for better weapon and armor proficiencies, I'd take a level of cavalier (or fighter or paladin or whatever).
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I'll go for option (c): The Holy Vindicator is not very good because the abilities it has are pretty weak compared to the lost spellcasting levels, and the Eldritch Knight is not very good because it requires too many spellcaster levels to enter (unless you use another prestige class like Arcane Archer or Dragon Disciple to enter it).Okay I don't get it...
Either this PrC is overpowered and the EK is the proper power level OR this PrC is the proper power level and the EK is underpowered. I see people who railed againt us who thinks the EK is underpowered and should have some actual class ability as OMG that broken saying that this is okay...really?
That's because your viewing this PrC as a straight up cleric PrC. It's not. It's a fighter/cleric MC PrC that doesn't require you to be nerfed with levels of fighters to enter it. You lose the same number of CL as the straight up EK, AT and MT builds (all make you lose 3 CL or so), it's just that you don't have the suckage at early levels because your forced to MC. Okay imagine if the AT or EK had 7/10 casting but you can enter with straight up caster...that's what this PrC is doing...and it's a less sucktastic way to do MCing PrCs. Well that and having actually cool class abilities.
That's because your viewing this PrC as a straight up cleric PrC. It's not. It's a fighter/cleric MC PrC that doesn't require you to be nerfed with levels of fighters to enter it. You lose the same number of CL as the straight up EK, AT and MT builds (all make you lose 3 CL or so), it's just that you don't have the suckage at early levels because your forced to MC. Okay imagine if the AT or EK had 7/10 casting but you can enter with straight up caster...that's what this PrC is doing...and it's a less sucktastic way to do MCing PrCs. Well that and having actually cool class abilities.
It doesn't require you to be nerfed with levels of fighter because it's self-nerfing, you mean?
I still don't think it really makes a better melee cleric than a plain ol' cleric. I guess if you liked the shield power, you could take one level of Holy Vindicator. But everything else is pretty dull, IMO. I guess that's just a matter of taste.
I agree that this Prc is balance if stick to 10 level, but 1-4 level dip it seems to be too good for cleric. Yes you lose a caster level, but can still cast 9th level spells and get all the goodies.
What I don't understand is the Vindicator's shield ability. The ac bonus disappers after first struck in combat. I assume it means normal melee or range attack. If, say, some one shot a magic missle at vindicator in the first round, does he lose the ac bonus?
I agree that this Prc is balance if stick to 10 level, but 1-4 level dip it seems to be too good for cleric. Yes you lose a caster level, but can still cast 9th level spells and get all the goodies.
What I don't understand is the Vindicator's shield ability. The ac bonus disappers after first struck in combat. I assume it means normal melee or range attack. If, say, some one shot a magic missle at vindicator in the first round, does he lose the ac bonus?
I don't think so, no. But if you shot a scorching ray, or something else requiring an attack roll, then it would. At least, that's how I'd rule it.
If a DM allowed it I would rather take the variant cleric from the Campaign book if I want a fighting cleric. I lose domain abilities, but I get Full BAB and 9th level spells.
I would not say "much better"; the powers you get from levels 1-4 are pretty tame (and dull), and you lose a level of spellcasting.I agree. What is gained is much better than what is lost at that point.One thing I must say to the OP's point vs. the comparisons of losing 3 caster levels, is that his real stated focus is *NOT* on taking the class for all 10 levels.
Instead, he's more focused on taking FOUR levels of the class, giving up just ONE caster level, and whether the benefits that are gained are too good.
Some of us see Prestige Classes as something special, something our characters want to be. Prestige Classes are for life, not just for Christmas! Entering one is a commitment.
I don't allow "dipping" and therefore I'm looking at the whole 10 levels, and I would say it's balanced just right.If you allow players to dip then at 4th level the benefits just about outweigh the losses imo.
If a DM allowed it I would rather take the variant cleric from the Campaign book if I want a fighting cleric. I lose domain abilities, but I get Full BAB and 9th level spells.
Yes, the variant from the Campaign book is what is broken imo, and the campaign book is pre-Pathfinder RPG iirc.
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If a DM allowed it I would rather take the variant cleric from the Campaign book if I want a fighting cleric. I lose domain abilities, but I get Full BAB and 9th level spells.Yes, the variant from the Campaign book is what is broken imo, and the campaign book is pre-Pathfinder RPG iirc.
It's not broken, it really cuts down on a Clerics versatility a lot, but does a decent job of allowing them to cover two roles wellish. But then again "broken" and overpowered are opinions only. Also it was one of the things that was not updated because it needed no changes. It is ok for PF final.
It's not broken, it really cuts down on a Clerics versatility a lot, but does a decent job of allowing them to cover two roles wellish. But then again "broken" and overpowered are opinions only. Also it was one of the things that was not updated because it needed no changes. It is ok for PF final.If a DM allowed it I would rather take the variant cleric from the Campaign book if I want a fighting cleric. I lose domain abilities, but I get Full BAB and 9th level spells.Yes, the variant from the Campaign book is what is broken imo, and the campaign book is pre-Pathfinder RPG iirc.
When was the Campaign book updated? I have the old version pdf, with many wrong rules that don't make any sense when looking at the PF Core Rulebook (like an alternate ability for Rangers that is worse than the ability it replaces)
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It's not broken, it really cuts down on a Clerics versatility a lot, but does a decent job of allowing them to cover two roles wellish. But then again "broken" and overpowered are opinions only. Also it was one of the things that was not updated because it needed no changes. It is ok for PF final.
If you are talking about the full casting, full BAB cleric variant, then its very broken, or if you prefer, unbalanced compared to all the rest of the classes. Somewhere around here is a post from James Jacobs saying that a full casting, full BAB class is one thing Paizo has no plans to continue, and it is being removed. The distinct impression I got was that was an idea they felt did not fit the balance of the current Pathfinder RPG. If I can find it, I will edit this post.
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First, I gotta say I really like the PrC, I just wish it had come out a few months earlier. My Cleric of Cayden Cailean would have loved this class.
I still disagree that +1 BAB, +4 hit points on average, the ability to burn very limited CPE uses for a lasts-until-struck AC bonus, a +2 bonus to one set of abilities at the cost of taking uncurable ongoing damage and thus needing to make a concentration check for every spell being cast, auto-Empowered cure spells for the self only, and the ability to auto-cast doom on a critical hit are worth a caster level, -4 levels of favored class benefits, and -4 levels of domain powers. Although admittedly using stigmata for save bonuses is nice; it's by far the most powerful of the choices.
All of the gained abilities are incredibly minor, and the stigmata thing can actually backfire on you.
This. For a 4 level dip, let's look at what you get and lose:
Gain:
Vindicator's Shield: Clerics don't have a ton of uses per day of their channel energy, so I couldn't see myself using this more than once a day, right before going to sleep.
Stigmata: 2 damage/round for +1 to attacks, damage, AC, caster level checks, or saving throws. Not a huge bonus, not a huge amount of damage, but as mentioned before, you could be in deep doo-doo if you get knocked out while this is active. It also means concentration checks (albeit usually easy ones).
Faith Healing: Auto empowered is not bad, but only applies to yourself.
Divine Wrath: Doom on a crit by you or against you is pretty neat.
+1 BAB, armor and weapon proficiencies: All decent benefits.
Lose:
Domain Progression: Not so bad for some domains (Nobility, anybody?). There are a few that give a static benefit that doesn't depend on cleric level, but most of the better ones don't fit into that group.
-1 Caster Level: Generally your most vital statistic is your CL, but that depends on the individual cleric.
The higher hit dice is a wash, because it gives you an average +1 HP per level, which you could get from your Favored Class bonus normally.
The list of things you gain is longer, and I really like the flavor, but I don't think it's better. The caster level is a bigger deal than most realize.
It seems like this class is far from a must have, and I don't see it as power creep.
It lets fighting clerics become more fighter-ey while not being worth it for clerics that focus on casting more than anything. Seems like it works as intended pretty nicely.
Actually, let me go on record as saying that I think this PrC is a step forward in PrC design when used for clerics. It's an actual valid mechanical choice, at least at levels 1-4 of the PrC. It's still a little behind a straight cleric in things-that-matter, but it's at least semi-viable. That's a big step forward from the core PrCs, which are basically a load of junk across the board because the only one of them that advances any class features is the Dragon Disciple, which, while improved over 3.5, is still a trap class in 95%+ of cases.
For paladins, though, it's a joke. It is not mechanically viable as a paladin PrC. They lose wa~ay too much by not taking Paladin levels instead.
Amusingly, the difference there is because Paizo actively chose not to give wizards, sorcerers, and clerics many class features (especially clerics, who have the distinction of being the only Pathfinder base class without a capstone), so they don't have as many to give up, which makes Prestige Classes much more attractive to them. That's amusing because it's mostly wizards, sorcerers, and clerics that people complained about with regard to being too eager to use PrCs.
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I still don't think it really makes a better melee cleric than a plain ol' cleric. I guess if you liked the shield power, you could take one level of Holy Vindicator. But everything else is pretty dull, IMO. I guess that's just a matter of taste.
Well yeah, basically. The full fighter prof helps over the regular cleric. Also the extra BAB does open up the extra attack...and you can pick up one of those tasty +16 BAB req feats. Pure power wise, yeah the straight up cleric is better...kinda like how the straight up wizard is better then the EK builds, but for somebody who wants a cleric/fighter this is a well balanced PrC...which makes the EK very much an underpowered PrC.
I have a player in my home campaign using Holy vindicator on top of Paladin in a dex based build with combat patrol. He's also grabbing a level or two in the Defender PrC, and his AC is formidable. I can't remember exact numbers off the top of my head but there will be a clear point when most CR 20's require a 16+ on the dice to hit him... and that's pretty nasty.
I have a player in my home campaign using Holy vindicator on top of Paladin in a dex based build with combat patrol. He's also grabbing a level or two in the Defender PrC, and his AC is formidable. I can't remember exact numbers off the top of my head but there will be a clear point when most CR 20's require a 16+ on the dice to hit him... and that's pretty nasty.
Don't forget that Sacred Shield only lasts as long as he hasn't been hit.
I have a player in my home campaign using Holy vindicator on top of Paladin in a dex based build with combat patrol. He's also grabbing a level or two in the Defender PrC, and his AC is formidable. I can't remember exact numbers off the top of my head but there will be a clear point when most CR 20's require a 16+ on the dice to hit him... and that's pretty nasty.Don't forget that Sacred Shield only lasts as long as he hasn't been hit.
Absolutely.
What cleric wouldn't dip into this PrC for the proficiencies and the HD/BAB (at least for 4 levels)?
The clerics who don't want to give up caster levels. So, the smart ones.
I think HV is a great flavor class, but the optimal mechanical choice is always, always, always to not give up caster levels on a full caster.
I think it is a bit over-powered for a cleric build and mechanically unappealing for a paladin.
the perceived HD gain of the PrC usually isnt there because people lose their favored class bonus for taking a PrC.
paladin already has full BAB, martial and heavy armor and actually loses spellcasting ability. I rather make it a paladin specific PrC and give him full cast progression.
On the other side of the coin it should be a half progression caster class for cleric in my opinion which roughly evens out with paladin in a comparable increase. A bit easier in my campaign because casterlevels only suffer slightly for multi-classing.
(using a single caster level regardless of arcane, divine or innate, counting classes as either 1 CL per 2 lvls or 1 CL per lvl)
Compared to other prestige classes in the APG I think the Holy Vindicator and Master Chymist are the best. They allow you to play a different concept without sucking.
Prestige classes like Horizon walker, Nature warden and Stalwart defender nerf you character a tad too much for my liking.
My $0.02
Decent for an evil cleric. Channeling to damage is rarely, if ever, worth it for a good cleric. Not enough specific enemies that are hurt from it. Undead, and evil outsiders if you take a feat.
Good combat abilities =/= good at combat. A cleric needs wis>cha>con>dex>str>int typically to survive lower and mid levels. At best, you can get a str14 or so at lv1, ending up with Dex10/Con12/Int8/wis16/cha14 at best, and most optimizers will laugh at you, but you are still viable for heal/buffs.
(Works OK if you roll for stats, or run a 25 point buy though)
Add that to 8 or whatever levels of medium BAB, and you ain't got a good fighter. You have a skirmisher at best. Nothing I would be afraid of. Certainly not going to ANY of the real martial classes a run for their money.
And, a cleric that buffs himself is useless for 1d4 rounds as his buffs lines up, and most of the times, the battle would be over by then anyway if you just played as a team. Now you might get to kill-steal one or two enemies.
So... yeah. Not impressed. Never even considered going for it with any of my clerics.
Compared to other prestige classes in the APG I think the Holy Vindicator and Master Chymist are the best. They allow you to play a different concept without sucking.
Prestige classes like Horizon walker, Nature warden and Stalwart defender nerf you character a tad too much for my liking.
I was a little disappointed with the stalwart defender, though thematically I like it very much and it has improved a bit, the defensive stance is still bad and should have been changed to something less restrictive.
Horizon Walker, better but yea.. it was a waste of space still.
Nature Warden had some potential, but it is still an inferior choice for a PC.
The Rage Prophet was mostly good, but invites to abuse for a high DC caster.
Battle Herald was ok actually, though I wouldnt play such a character rp wise the trumpet banner boy on adventure appears more comical than anything else.
Master Spy and Master Chemist were actually just good.
I've been examining the APG. Very pleased with most of the content...except the Holy Vindicator.
It is too good. I feel it violates the principle that prestige classes should not be incredibly better than the base classes.
The mechanics of this principle can be implemented in the following ways:
1. The requirements of the PrC require tradeoffs
example: Arcane trickster requires 3 levels of rogue and 3 levels (minimum) of some arcane class
2. The class progression involves tradeoffs from the base class(es) used to qualify for it
Continuing example: Arcane trickster forgoes the capstone abilities of the arcane class and the additional rogue talents (including improved evasion)
I interpret the holy vinidcator as being designed for a paladin, but really being best taken by a cleric. There is little reason to continue in cleric past 8th level when a holy vindicator is available.
Comparison:
A paladin gives up:
additional Lay on Hands
Mercies
Divine Bond
Smite Evil
Aura powers
Holy ChampionThey gain no new proficiencies, BAB or HD and lose 3 spellcasting levels (from a weak progression).
A cleric who waits to level 9 to start holy vindicator (so the 8th level domain power kicks in) gains the following (on top of PrC powers):
Better HD (d8 -> d10)
Better BAB (3/4 -> full)
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
Heavy Armor ProficienciesAnd loses:
up to 3 levels of spellcasting
increased duration/power for some (but not all) domain powers/Comparison
Channel Energy continues to stack with this PrC.
4 levels of Holy Vindicator means only a -1 caster level to spellcasting.
What cleric wouldn't dip into this PrC for the proficiencies and the HD/BAB (at least for 4 levels)?
Not having a cleric capstone makes divine spellcasting PrCs very difficult to design, because anything with decent caster progression is very tempting. I know this was dropped for a reason from the Beta...
I don't think level dipping is a good view of overall power. It may mean certain abilities need to be shifted around to discourage it. Many people also won't dump caster levels for BAB. I do see your point though and I would have had the caster levels kick in every other level for a total of 5.
Horizon Walker, better but yea.. it was a waste of space still.
The 3.5 version is better I thought.
Planar gave you immunity to all bad alignment effects now it seems to just detect...
I agree that it may be on the upper end of things if planning to only dip 4 levels... I still don't think it is powerful enough to warrant nerfing it. It's good, but by no means broken.
You also have to take into account that you are losing a feat to Alignment Channel or some such, and unless in a very specific campaign it is a lost feat. And, Clerics that are looking to be more than just something with a decent hit/dam are going to be even more feat starved than their sane brethren.
I think the tragedy of this class is that it is actually best for exactly the type of character it wasn't designed for: a bad mammajamma negative-energy-channellin' cleric of a death god. It makes me want to roll up a strike/nuke-er cleric of Zon-Kuthon (one of the only evil gods that thematically makes sense with the whole stigmata thing).
How often would a CR20 hit this?
It's an (unintentional, I'm sure) trick question -- other than the tarn linnorm (which is widely acknowledged to not really be tough enough to qualify as CR 20, regardless of what the Bestiary says), the high CR monsters are mostly spellcasters. So, for example, the CR 20 gold dragon probably isn't going to try to melee that character down, but if it does, it's going to be doing so with a serious host of buffs or, at the very least, an anti-magic field that drops that AC of 60 to 20.
Just wondering if any of the math nuts know the average chances of a Given CR to hit a HV using his Vindicators Shield ability.
I'm 4 levels into the HV class, with a phalactry of channeling to improve the channel by 2d6. I find mooks generally can't hit me (unless they get lucky). Usually 2 or 3 uses a day is enough to get me to the BBEG, which I don't mind since I took extra channel and have a good Cha.
Note: the main reason I think it's lasting so long is we play bosses as having lots and lots of Minions (not the 4E kind). We house rule that we get no XP for challenges CR-3 because they're too easy. They make combat last longer though (which we enjoy) and it makes blasters happy. (Or me when I'm using Holy Word :)
Not there yet, but a 20th a HV (with Dex 9, 10 with +1 Tome) would have:
AC: 10+ 9(Fullplate)+5(Magic)+5(Amulet)+5(ring)+0(dex)+3(belt)+1(light shield)+5(shield enhancement)+5(defending shield spikes)= 48
Vindicators Shield: If using this ability add number of Channel Energy dice to AC for 24hrs or until struck. AC of 60 (for 10d6 normal, 2d6 for phylactery of channeling) till struck.
How often would a CR20 hit this?
How is a belt giving a +3 to AC?
True strike says the dragon hits it.
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How often would a CR20 hit this?
Based on the DB at d20pfsrd.com, the average highest attack roll for a CR20 is 31.6. So if we round up to 32, that means the average CR20 has a 25% chance to hit the 48 and a 5% chance to hit the 60. Seems pretty reasonable for somebody who's completely focused on their AC.
Don't forget that true strike's a standard action, so that's spending every other round in order to ensure that you have one attack that hits. Even if you quicken it, that's still just one per round.
How often would a CR20 hit this?Based on the DB at d20pfsrd.com, the average highest attack roll for a CR20 is 31.6. So if we round up to 32, that means the average CR20 has a 25% chance to hit the 48 and a 5% chance to hit the 60. Seems pretty reasonable for somebody who's completely focused on their AC.
Don't forget that true strike's a standard action, so that's spending every other round in order to ensure that you have one attack that hits. Even if you quicken it, that's still just one per round.
According to one of the earlier post you only have to hit the HV once to lose the 12 points of AC from the channeling. Once you do that life gets a lot easier.
Congratulation Jason, I think you´ve achieved the ´Magic Paizo Balance Point´, half the people think it´s over-powered while half the people think it´s under-powered. ;-)
If I would nit-pick, I think it would be best if it didn´t add any proficiencies, and rather than a generic +1 casting level format, that caster-level progression was based on the class whose casting was being advanced (Full Caster/Cleric = 3/4, Inquisitor = 3/4 no change, Paladin = 3/2 accelerated), but that isn´t something that´s usually done with similar PrC´s.
I agree that a Cleric filling the mold for this class would likely take a level of Fighter or Paladin (or just Heavy Armor and/or a Weapon Proficiency, likely Exotic) before getting to this PrC, which would give them Martial Weapons and Heavy Armor. Some CLerics wouldn´t bother, and would get by just with Cleric Proficiencies, but if they´ve got by the entire time, that´s why I don´t think the PrC needs to give proficiency. It seems like it would also be compatable with the old 3.5 Cleric Variant giving up Domains for Martial Weapons and Full BAB (which I would amend to include Heavy Armor in PRPG).
I've been examining the APG. Very pleased with most of the content...except the Holy Vindicator....my only problem is that the main mechanic of his powers seems unsanitary. It's like he's spurting divine bloodborne pathogens all over the bad guys and making them melt. Sticky mess everywhere.
+1
It is very Christian in theme. Also I like the idea of the class, but I just don't see it fitting alot of religions out there.
Ok I know I know, late to the party. But I would say this, lets look at the Dragon Disciple. Much like HV, the sorc does not need to take up any other class levels to get into DD, gets bigger, and he gets stronger. In exchange (like a HV) a sorc loses 3 caster levels. As of now, I have yet to hear ANYONE crying overpowered about the DD. In fact, Paizo RAISED the power level of DD from 3.5 to Pathfinder because "half caster" prestige classes were all horrible (losing 5 casters levels is rediculous and nothign is worth 5 caster levels) and made the baster lose their identity as a caster. Heck, losing 5 levels of caster makes you barely better than a Bard or Summoner.
There is am Aasimar feat that can go nicely with Holy Vindicator.
Your blood is infused with holy power.
Prerequisites: Con 13, aasimar.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against effects with the evil descriptor and on Constitution checks to stabilize when you are reduced to negative hit points (but not dead). Furthermore, each time you take bleed or blood drain damage, each undead creature or creature with the evil subtype that is currently adjacent to you also takes 1 point of damage.