I've recently been a victim of good tactics, my own!
Situation: Throwing a Splash Weapon from 10 feet at an enemy that is prone, threatened and flanked by 2 other party members.
DM says, sure go for it... effective -8 penalty. I think, "Huh?"
I understand the letter of the law, ranged attack makes the target's AC +4, and throwing into melee suffers a -4 without Prcise Shot.
My thoughts are:
1) This is to some dregree a lob or sorts, it has to be conceptually speaking... because it's supposed to splash, cover your target and splash in 8 directions. So, it's not a trajectory vs. profile thing. Where being prone and having a lower profile would help. I mean, you can target an intersection for AC 5. Neither penalty should apply.
2) Unlike regular weapons, this is by definition a sloppy toss. You're gonna affect adjacent squares. And, if you miss (unlike most weapons), you roll d8 to see where it went. Why don't we do that with arrows? Because we take -4 when firing into melee. That represents in part, trying not to hit comrades.
3) This does not cause any precision based damage (sneak, etc...) They why, are we being penalized for precision? -4 into melee should not apply.
4) Lastly, and a little tangential - If a character is already flanked by two party members and suffering -2 AC for this condition. How does lobbing something at him (or any ranged attack) make them any less distracted? Once a creature/character is flanked... all attacks should benefit.
Thanks for listening.
Curious Thrower
1) This is to some dregree a lob or sorts, it has to be conceptually speaking... So, it's not a trajectory vs. profile thing.
2) Unlike regular weapons, this is by definition a sloppy toss. You're gonna affect adjacent squares. And, if you miss (unlike most weapons), you roll d8 to see where it went.
3) This does not cause any precision based damage (sneak, etc...) They why, are we being penalized for precision? -4 into melee should not apply.
4) Once a creature/character is flanked... all attacks should benefit.
Shorted down quotes.
1. Agreed, I can understand while the prone bonus shouldn't apply. RAW it does, but I can see reasons to house rule it away.
2. Don't really get what this has to do with anything really...
3. Arrows normally don't deal precision damage either. You still need to hit, and the lesser requirement of precision (you don't have to hit a specific part of the target, just touch him) is represented by it being a touch attack.
4. Flanked isn't a condition, flanking is a position. I can see why one would want to change that, but it's that simple. You just have to worry about those straight around you. One explanation would be that you don't have to worry as much about ranged opponents, because they attack more slowly. They might have as many effective attacks per round, but melee attackers could swing a sword in a half-second if you let your guard down.
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1) Shooting into melee is hard because you are trying to hit a specific spot in a constantly moving, entanglement of steel and bodies (That is what melee IS, people often forget that). In addition with the person being prone they present a much smaller target for you to hit, thus the +4 AC to hit.
2) I would like for you to define a "sloppy toss" for me really fast. Because from what you are describing there are 3 bodies in melee, all three of them are engaged in combat and most certainly not just standing there with their thumbs up their arse. Forgive the Basketball reference but this is like trying to hit a 3 point basket with a couple of Shaq's standing in the way... and the net is at 18 feet high instead.
3) I disagree for the above reasons. This is VERY much a precision based thing you are trying to do, thus the reason for the AC. The enemy is not the broad side of a barn here.
4) Only character actually flanking a target gain the benefit FROM flanking, you being 10 feet away benefit in no way.
My last 2cp on this note is the following. Ranged touch attack is so INCREDIBLY easy to hit, and even if you do miss the target will still get hit with the splash effect. Trying to lawyer the rules away here is a pretty low thing to do when your primary weapon can never even truly miss.
1) This is to some dregree a lob or sorts, it has to be conceptually speaking... So, it's not a trajectory vs. profile thing.
2) Unlike regular weapons, this is by definition a sloppy toss. You're gonna affect adjacent squares. And, if you miss (unlike most weapons), you roll d8 to see where it went.
3) This does not cause any precision based damage (sneak, etc...) They why, are we being penalized for precision? -4 into melee should not apply.
4) Once a creature/character is flanked... all attacks should benefit.
Shorted down quotes.
1. Agreed, I can understand while the prone bonus shouldn't apply. RAW it does, but I can see reasons to house rule it away.
I also agree with the first point. Though it has never really come up in any of our games, I would equate splash weapons to indirect fire weapons of the real world, which were designed to whack prone targets, people hiding behind low walls, etc. when direct fire weapons like crossbows, rifles, and so forth cannot get to them very effeciently.
I will definitely be suggesting this to our group for a house rule.
-Brooks
Hey,
Thanks folks for chiming in... I appreciate your comments and time.
On a context note, far from Rules Lawyering here, because there would have to be a rule to lawyer... we're just applying rules that may or may not fit the situation.
It's the absence of a clear rule or the ambiguity of the situation that brings this up. Now, we can't rebut eachother by stating "the rules say", we all seem versed in the RAW. And, that's that I'm questioning.
I mean, I'd cite that Throwing a Splash Weapon warranted its own entry with several paragraphs... Why would it be that way if it wasn't different? IMHO it was an oversight. I'm not knocking the game, I love the game.
Just stating that this juxtaposition of Splash Weapon and Prone, needs some attention.
And, I'm not really being petty... I'm playing a pre-gen 1st Level Wizard you might have heard of... Ezren. Dude's got 9 Dex, when I leveled I went Rogue. Wiz1/Rog1. BAB 0, Dex -1... Rolled a 19, became 18. I claimed Higher Ground (stairs) and ended with a 19. -8, makes it 11. I needed a 12.
I needed to have rolled a 20, basically a Nat 20. LOL. And, I'm not griping, I accepted the DM ruling under protest, sure.
It just doesn't seem right.
And, for the record... with my primary weapon, I still can't hit anything.
Point 2) means you get the -4 for firing into melee... and that prevents us from asking, well if you missed... where did the arrow go? But, we do ask that very question with Splash Weapons. So, why the -4?
I'm eally questioning the "mechanic", this isn't personal. Doesn't seem appropriate to have an effective -8 penalty (never mind the flanking). They need to update the Condition AC Modifier Chart... Melee, Range & Splash.
I think it should be neither penalty, one (-4), or both... but each reduced to -2 for a total of -4. But, both at -4 for a combined effective -8 is egregious.
Just sayin'.
Sincerely,
Unlucky Lobber