Back in 3.broken neutralize poison ended all poison affects. In PF we now have a better mechanic where caster level and severity of poison are taken into account.
The problem to me is that now Poisons work round after round, you don't get the old 1 minute honeymoon period between failing your save and having to deal with it before you got hit a second time. Basically there was plenty of time to deal with the Poison.
Baring in mind that we could be facing poisoning creatures from level 1 and neutralize poison isn't available to cast until level 7 for a Cleric [or 5 for a Druid], and that a scroll [if over-cast] would cost 700gp's. Is it time for neutralize poison to be looked at again?
Do you prepare it? Do you think it's too high a level, especially now that you have to succeed on a caster level check and get to the victim pretty much immediately if you're going to bother at all.
Or do you just ignore neutralize poison and just deal with the affects via lower level magic like restoration, lesser?
As our party does not have neutralize poison we have had to deal with lower level clean up spells like the lesser resto. On the other hand I like the new poison rule in PF. I think they make poisons more viable both for PCs and monsters with poison... however they can be overused.
smurf
Oh yeah, big rethink needed here.
I've always been annoyed that this was a 4th level spell. All the way back to 1e. I mean, we can cure permanent blindness at 3rd level, cure leprosy or cancer at 3rd level, and even get a cripple out of a wheelchair at 2nd level. Heck, just wait one more level and let the guy die then cast Raise Dead on him - then we don't even need this spell (just kidding, by the way, but it sort of illustrates the point).
Why do we have to wait until 7th level to cure a simple snake bite?
Answer: Poison is a game mechanic that we're supposed to be afraid of. Giving access to the cure at a low level removes the fear of the poison mechanic. So it was put up to mid-level to keep it out of reach of lowbie characters who are the ones who really need to fear being poisoned.
Silly and gamist and compared to the other stuff we can cure at lower level, it just doesn't make sense.
Now along comes Pathfinder and they take the spell and nerf it to the point of being broken. It used to automatically cure poisons, and prevent any new poisons from affecting the recipient for at least 70 minutes. So, have to walk through a hallway filled with cobras? No problem, cast the spell and you can take a nap in that hallway...
The Pathfinder version is no longer automatic. It requires a caster level check which, most of the time, is lower than the original failed save. For example, a 7th level cleric rolls 1d20+7 for his CL check to remove a poison from a 7th level fighter who (given a 16 CON and a +1 cloak) failed a 1d20+9 FORT save to get poisoned in the first place. Hardly even worth it to cast a supposedly powerful spell that has less chance of success than just letting the guy make his consecutive saves.
In fact, just drop a level 2 Bear's Endurance on the guy and he's far more likely to resist his own poison than you are to cure it with this level 4 Neutralize Poison spell.
Yeah, yeah, if it's the wimpy Raistlin wizard who got poisoned, then it's a different story... But how often is the wizard poisoned compared to how often it's the fighter?
The spell was further nerfed so that it no longer grants a duration of protection. Now it's instant - no longer do you get at least 70 minutes of future poisons being (maybe) neutralized.
Finally, as a 4th level spell, it's impossible to bew it into a potion and ridiculously expensive to craft it into a wand.
In my opinion, this is now a 2nd level spell at most. It's unreliable, prone to failure, and doesn't scale.
So, yeah, it needs a big rethink.
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This part of the spell makes it a higher level (at least in my mind):
This spell can instead neutralize the poison in a poisonous creature or object for 10 minutes per level, at the caster's option. If cast on a creature, the creature receives a Will save to negate the effect.
This would allow the caster to make an encounter a little less dangerous.
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In literature, being poisoned is often a terrible event for a hero. I'm glad that poison has been made more potent in Pathfinder and I don't want Neutralize Poison to become an easily appliable bandaid that makes the problem go away for a negligible cost.
Ken
Well it won't in most cases. Most of the poisons that you'll come across happen in combat and that'll be when the Cleric probably isn't doing his nails and wondering what he should do this round!
Also don't forget you don't have any time to waste, it's every round!
And, you still have to make that caster level check!
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If you want a lower-level solution, delay poison makes you immune to poison for hr/level. That plus a trained take 10 Heal check will get you out of most poisons.
Frankly, neutralize poison is better for detoxifying a whole monster than a poisoned PC.
If you want a lower-level solution, delay poison makes you immune to poison for hr/level. That plus a trained take 10 Heal check will get you out of most poisons.
Frankly, neutralize poison is better for detoxifying a whole monster than a poisoned PC.
I guess you're right but neutralize poison still needs to be lowered imo.
If you want a lower-level solution, delay poison makes you immune to poison for hr/level. That plus a trained take 10 Heal check will get you out of most poisons.
Frankly, neutralize poison is better for detoxifying a whole monster than a poisoned PC.
+1
If you make it easier to combat poison, you make poison weaker. I don't want poison any weaker. I'd be happier still if neutralize poison didn't exist at all and all you had available was Charlie Bell's trick.
Why Poison in particular? Why not rid the game of ways to deal with Disease, Paralysis, Curses etc. etc. Hey, let's just dump healing too and then we can drop the whole "who wants to play the Cleric crap" and just play what we really want... ;)
Seriously though, Poison does seem to start early but not get a complete solution until way too late compared to all the other afflictions.
Straw men do not a strong argument make. All those other things have zero bearing on whether neutralize poison is good, bad, or in between.
Off hand, I would not be opposed to something like this.
Remove Poison (Cleric 5/Druid 3)
Casting Time : 1 minute
Target : one creature affected by poison
This spell will remove poison from a poisoned creature, but will not neutralize it from a poisonous creature (See Neutralize Poison to do this). Once the spell has begun being cast, the target stops resisting the poison. In effect, beginning to cast the spell delays the effects of the poison on the target. Once the spell is completed, the target is cured of the poison. To successfully complete the spell, the caster must make a caster level check equal to the DC of the poison. Any bonuses the poisoned character has to resist poison may be added to this caster level check made by the caster. If successful, the poison is removed from the target. If the caster fails his caster check, or the spell is not completed, the target immediately takes damage from the poison. The poisons duration in this case is extended, with the casting time used for the spell not reducing the duration of the poison in any way.
I'm sure there's a better way to write all that, but basically it'd be a way of curing poison on a single target, but it takes a minute and still requires a check. That keeps poison deadly, and keeps you from healing it in combat, but it's an intermediary step between delay poison and neutralize.
While I don't think it should be a 4th level spell or it should be improved to make it 4th level, keep in mind that it does give the poisoned character two chances each round to fight off the poisons, they still get their normal saving throws.
(Raise Dead)
Maybe it could give the target an automatic Fort save reroll with a generous bonus (i.e. the caster level?).
Obviously, this would give an advantage to fighters, but I feel it's normal a barbarian has more chance to save than a wizard...
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Heh, back in 1e it effectively was a lower level very specific version of raise dead - since nearly every poison was save or die, it let you "come back from the dead" as long as your cause of death was "very recent poisoning."
I agree it's been beaten hard with the nerf bat in PF. I would even venture that it's not worth making into a (druid) potion, or put in scroll or wand form, simply because the caster level makes it unlikely to work. You are better off buying a cheap alchemical antitoxin.
Cast from memory at full CL it can have utility against really high level poisons - when you need 3 consecutive DC26 saves or some such, making one DC26 caster level check suddenly becomes a lot more appealing. Of course, by then you can likley just slather on a heal and fix all their problems anyway.