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Question, is this viable. I'm not seeing any feats that help for caster level penalties like those which were introduced into 3.5 once they realized there was a problem with caster multi-classing.
So far, I'm looking at--
Race--Half Elf or Halfling, tending toward Half Elf
Bloodline--I'm open but Fey and Draconic look fun thematically, the latter if especially if I can do spell based sneak attacks.
Build: (half Elf)
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16
Halfling
Str 11
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16
All the best,
Kerney
Looks fine to me.
Yeah, bloodline doesn't matter much, as you'll only take a few levels of Sorcerer anyways (4, to be exact) before tripping off to AT. I think that Arcane is 'probably' best for the familiar, which can boost an important skill early on and later, when you get Improved Familiar, Use Magic Device becomes helpful.
Sorc/Rog/AT is a little harder than Wiz/Rog/AT, because you're not INT focused, and thus have less skill points. In PFS play you'll never know if you'll have another rogue in the party, so be sure to take the 'core' rogue skills at max (Perception, Disable Device, Stealth).
Leveling order is tricky...I'd suggest taking the 3 levels of Rogue first, as your spell choices for the Sorcerer will NOT be the same as if you were going straight Sorcerer. Then take Sorcerer, tailoring your spells to what you do as a Rogue. This'll make up for your skills/sneak attack falling behind.
I don't think you need 16 CHA though. Saving throws should seldom be an issue for you, so keeping CHA at just enough to be able to cast spells is probably enough, and you can spread your points out a little more effectively (INT) in the long run.
It pretty depends on how much of a spell casting he goes for. You'll eventually need enough charisma to cast the level of spells you're targeting for. You don't necessarily have to be packing it all at first level though. Cha will help you with use magic device and the social skills.[
I don't think you need 16 CHA though. Saving throws should seldom be an issue for you, so keeping CHA at just enough to be able to cast spells is probably enough, and you can spread your points out a little more effectively (INT) in the long run.
For PFS play, with a level cap of 12, that's only 9 levels of sorcerer spellcasting (Sor4/AT5); that is, 4th level spells at 11th character level. I'd suggest taking CHA 13 at 1st level and putting the +1 CHA at 8th character level (which will be the 1st level of AT). This saves a lot of points in character building for things like INT. Though CHA 16 costs the same as CHA 14 and INT 14, and this would be a good compromise.
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Question, is this viable. I'm not seeing any feats that help for caster level penalties like those which were introduced into 3.5 once they realized there was a problem with caster multi-classing.
So far, I'm looking at--
Race--Half Elf or Halfling, tending toward Half Elf
Bloodline--I'm open but Fey and Draconic look fun thematically, the latter if especially if I can do spell based sneak attacks.Build: (half Elf)
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16Halfling
Str 11
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16All the best,
Kerney
I'm playing an arcane trickster (fey sorc/rogue)in a campaign right now, and they can be a lot of fun. I second the opinion that you're better off considering yourself a magicked up rogue rather than a full caster. Take a couple ray spells so you can sneak attack from invisible/hiding - scorching ray is good for this, especially once you get greater invisibility. I also recommend going up either sorc or rogue all the way first, then switching. The "mixed" levels are painful enough without starting to mix at level 2. You will feel horribly gimped somewhere around level 6 or so, and it won't really start to pay off until you have about 3 levels of trickster. I also agree that you might want to buff your int a little, skill points are in short supply, especially if you want to actually be a versatile rogue.
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Question, is this viable.What do you want from the character?
Second question: might you be interested in a pure rogue instead? I think some people look to multiclass just to multiclass. If that's what fits that's one thing, however it need not be. Really look at what you want and envision with the PC and see if anything really delivers it.
-James
Oh, I'm definately not looking to multiclass just to multiclass. In fact, part of the reason thematically I'm going this way rather then Rogue or Rogue/Wiz is the implication of "your family has bred with what?" (My S.O. will be playing in some of these games as a Halfing Cleric and as long as we're not too distracting we may play as an in game 'couple').
So, thematically I'm fine.
The problems are going up levels and keeping a mechanically effective character that works with this combo, who can backstab fairly often, is an effective rogue. As LazarX said, I'm playing a "magiked up Rogue", who usually goes for the stabbity or spell badness in combat situations but uses magic to get me into those situations or to avoid the combat all together (if scouting for example).
Thanks Ryric, Helic, and LazarX. I think I got some good ideas. I'm going to have to look at spells and such it sounds like.
Ray spells can be played as sneak attacks, good. Any idea if APG will have a feat that will effect caster levels for multi class characters?
I decided to go with Half elf and change the stats to:
Str: 10
Dex: 17
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 16
All the Best and thanks,
Kerney
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The problems are going up levels and keeping a mechanically effective character that works with this combo, who can backstab fairly often, is an effective rogue.
That is going to be a problem with an arcane trickster. Each of your sorcerer levels you get 6 less skill points/level than a rogue. Each of your Arcane Trickster levels you get 4 less skill points/level than a rogue.
So as a Sorcerer4/Rogue3/Arcane Trickster5, you would be down a total 44 skill points compared to a rogue12.. that's close to 4 full skills.. which is slightly under half a rogue's skills. That's a HUGE impact on being an effective rogue.
Towards combat you will get by 12th level only +4d6 sneak attack rather than +6d6 sneak for a rogue of that level. Also you will have a BAB of +6 rather than +9.. basically a wizard BAB instead of a rogue's. Your hps will be (assuming half-elf) down by 14 or 15 of a rogue's. With these later two in mind you'll likely look to use spells and touch attacks to get sneak damage. However, both this and your low BAB will mean that multiple attacks will be denied to you... so while a rogue is hitting 2-3 out of 4 times dealing 12-18d6 in sneak, you will hit once for 4d6 sneak.
All in all not that impressive.
Thanks, that's the type of information I'm looking for. Now, hopefully more people will come up with a wonderful refutation of your well written piece of information or I, who am looking at the ideas offered will figure out how to make things work wonderfully or adapt the idea as you suggest.
Basically, your seeing many of the problems I'm seeing. However, I see a very cool character thematically. So I'm trying to figure out how to make it work effectively.
Thanks, All the Best,
Kerney
In all honesty, I think Arcane Trickster is far, far better as a sneaky caster then as a casting rogue.
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Arcane trickster is weak if you're only looking at the numbers. If you're willing to place some emphasis on role-playing, the AT is awesome. Sneaky spells alone would be awesome in many role-playing situations. Throw in ranged ledgerdemain and eventually the greater invis at will, and you've got a super fun character to play.
Also, the BAB does suck compared to rogue, but if you focus on sneak attacking with ranged touch spells, you benefit from your enemy's lack of armor bonus. Heck, even many (most?) high level monsters will only have a Touch AC of 10.
That's also what I was thinking. I'm interested in a fun, awesome to roleplay character. To me it is obvious that this is achievable based off what I am hearing and seeing presented.
James, I appretiate "your by the numbers" analysis. However, I think I get my own theme and am analyzing my desires just fine at this point. Clearly you don't get that.
Repeatedly implying that I'm having problems 'envisioning my character' or other such nonsense is getting very tiresome. Everyone else here other then you seems to 'get' what I'm shooting for and are giving me good advice on how to achieve it.
Thanks everyone else, particularly you, Pudding Seven.
All the Best,
Kerney
Aberrant bloodline is nice. The third level power jives well with touch attack spells, and nothing it gives is a drawback for an AT either.
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We're miss communicating, because I didn't mean to imply that you're having any problems envisioning your character. Nor did I mean to insult you, as I meant to be helpful.But c'est la vie, best of luck with him,
James
Thanks, I appreciate that. I know what it's like to be mis-perceived over the internet and I'm sorry for my part in that.
Take Care,
Kerney
Also, the BAB does suck compared to rogue, but if you focus on sneak attacking with ranged touch spells, you benefit from your enemy's lack of armor bonus. Heck, even many (most?) high level monsters will only have a Touch AC of 10.That's also what I was thinking. I'm interested in a fun, awesome to roleplay character. To me it is obvious that this is achievable based off what I am hearing and seeing presented.
Beware! It's a trap!
Note you don't get Greater Invisibility until at least 11th level (8th level Sorcerer caster, you must be Rog3/Sor4/AT4). In PFS, you'll almost be ready to retire before you get it. Impromptu Sneak Attack? 10th level (Rog3/Sor4/AT3), and ONCE per day only.
So either you'll have to get ahold of a Wand of Greater Invisibility ASAP or spend time hiding in fights to get your Sneak Attack spells in. The first is unreliable, the second is probably not fun (failed Sneak checks, time wasted, etcetera).
ATs make GREAT thieves. A few choice spell selections make them nearly unstoppable cat-burglars, box-men or confidence artists. It's the combat end that's weak - if you don't care about that, you'll love it. If you can get the Wand of Greater Invisibility early on, you're golden.
The thing that will help in combat is the focus on touch spells and rays.
A scorching ray, even an acid splash, is a touch attack. That makes up for the low BAB to an extent. You'll STILL have trouble competing damage-wise, but you'll have something to do.
Get a bunch of wands early on (spend prestige), so that you can cast acid arrow and ray of enfeeblement at will. By the time you use the wands up, you'll have enough cash and spells per day that it's not a bid deal anymore.
Take feats like point-blank, precise, to make sure you connect, and consider having a lot of alchemical items on hand.
Make sure that you're able to act as the rogue, ready to scout, report back, etc. I like raven familiars for this, because they can stay with the group, and TALK to them. If you get in danger, the familiar can tell them.
It's really out of combat that you'll shine, with lots of knowledges and skills. Leverage that charisma to have good social skills, and make sure you at least speak all the human languages.
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Here's the guy I play in a local campaign... spent quite a bit of time min/maxing him. I think he's pretty effective.
Male halfling Rogue 3/Sorcerer 3/Arcane Trickster 8
CG Small humanoid
Init +13 ; Senses Perception +19
==DEFENSE==
AC 30, touch 22, flat-footed 22 (+5 armor, +7 dex, +1 size, +3 natural armor, +3 deflection)
hp 83.5 (11d6+3d8+14)
Fort +11, Ref +20, Will +13
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft./x4
Melee +1 Sword, short +16/+11 1d4 19-20/x2
Melee Mwk Sap +16/+11 1d4-1 20/x2
Ranged Ranged or Melee Touch +16/+11 By Spell -
Ranged +1 Crossbow, hand +16/+11 1d3+1 19-20/x2
==STATISTICS==
Str 8, Dex 24, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 26
Base Atk +7, Cmb +5Cmd +26
Feats Armor Proficiency (Light) (PFCR 118), Dodge (PFCR 122), Eschew Materials (PFCR 123), Greater Spell Penetration (PFCR 125), Improved Initiative (PFCR 127), Point Blank Shot (PFCR 131), Precise Shot (PFCR 131), Spell Penetration (PFCR 134), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136)
Skills Acrobatics +26, Climb +5, Disable Device +25, Disguise +25, Escape Artist +14, Fly +25, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (engineering) +22, Knowledge (planes) +19, Linguistics +9, Perception +19, Sleight of Hand +24, Spellcraft +22, Stealth +38
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Orc, Thassilonian
Combat Gear Ranged or Melee Touch, +1 Sword, short, +1 Crossbow, hand, Mwk Sap, Bracers of Armor +6
Other Gear Armor & Shield, Weapons
Class Abilities • ARCANE TRICKSTER SPELL PROGRESSION - Add Arcane Trickster levels to your levels to determine spell progression and caster level: 8. (PFCR 377).
• RANGED LEGERDEMAIN - Perform Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand at a range of 30 ft. at a +5 DC (you cannot take 10, must have at least 1 rank in skill). Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. (PFCR 377).
• IMPROMPTU SNEAK ATTACK - Twice per day an arcane trickster can declare one melee or ranged within 30 feetattack he makes to be a sneak attack. The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC against that attack, but any immunity to critical hits still applies against extra damage. (PFCR 377-378).
• TRICKY SPELLS - Can cast spells as if using the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats, but at no increase in spell level or casting time. 4 times/day. (PFCR 378).
• TRAP SENSE (+1) - +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. (PFCR 34).
• ROGUE WEAPONS AND ARMOR - All simple weapons, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. All light armor, but no shield. (PFCR 68).
• TRAPFINDING - Add +1 to Perception checks to locate traps and Disable Device checks. Can disarm magic traps. (PFCR 68).
• ROGUE EVASION - A successful Reflex save for half damage results in no damage. Must be in light armor or no armor and not helpless. (PFCR 68).
• ROGUE TALENT - You have chosen the following rogue talents: Fast Stealth.
- Fast Stealth - This ability allows a rogue to move at full speed using Stealth without penalty. (PFCR 68). (PFCR 68-70).
• SNEAK ATTACK - Deal +6d6 sneak attack damage in addition to weapon damage any time the enemy is denied a dexterity bonus to AC or is flanked by the rogue. Ranged attacks must be within 30 feet to do sneak attack damage. (PFCR 68).
• BLOODLINE - You get your powers from your Fey bloodline. It allows you to add the following spells to your known list:at this level - Entangle. (PFCR 71).
• BLOODLINE POWERS - You get the following powers from your Fey bloodline at this level:
- Laughing Touch - Melee touch attack causes creature to laugh (only move action, normal defense ) for 1 rnd, then immune for 24 hours. 11 times/day. (PFCR 76).
- Woodland Stride - You can move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at your normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect you. (PFCR 77). (PFCR 71).
• ESCHEW MATERIALS - The sorcerer gains Exchew Materials as a bonus feat. (PFCR 71).
• SORCERER CANTRIPS - The sorcerer can cast known 0-level spells at will. (PFCR 71).
• SORCERER SPELLS - The sorcerer chooses spells from the sorcerer/wizard list according to the progression in PFCR 72. (PFCR 70-71).
• SORCERER WEAPONS AND ARMOR - All simple weapons. Armor and shields may interfere with casting, requiring a Arcane Spell Failure roll (PFCR 83). (PFCR 70).
Traits • Magical Knack (Magic) - Your caster level in is 2. (PFCT 5)
• Reactionary (Combat) - +2 Initiative. (PFCT 4)
0th Spells DC 18
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Disrupt Undead
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Message
Ray of Frost
Read Magic
1st Spells DC 19
Grease
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil
Shocking Grasp
True Strike
Entangle - fey bloodline extra spell
2nd Spells DC 20
Spectral Hand
Acid Arrow
Detect Thoughts
Scorching Ray
Invisibility
3rd Spells DC 21
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Impede Speech
Nondetection
4th Spells DC 22
Invisibility, Greater
Dimension Door
Emergency Force Sphere
wall of ice - staff of frost 2
ice storm - staff of frost 1
5th Spells DC 23
Covetous Aura
Cone of Cold
cone of cold - staff of frost 3
Gear:
Robe of the Archimagi
Amulet Natural Armor +3
Ring of Protection +3
Ring of Chameleon Power
and Force Shield
and Mind Shielding
and Feather Falling
Headband of Mental
Prowess +6 (INT+CHA)
Belt of Incredible
Dexterity +6
Winged Boots of Striding
and Springing
Glove of Storing
Goggles of Night
Staff of Frost
Short Sword +1
Hand Crossbow +1
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Here's the guy I play in a local campaign... spent quite a bit of time min/maxing him. I think he's pretty effective.
Does your group have a houserule or is there a typo in your post?
Rogue 3/Sorcerer 3/Arcane Trickster 8
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Skills: Disable Device 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6.
Emphasis mine.
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I do have to agree that pure combat effectiveness is not really what the AT is all about, at least until levels way past where PFS play ends. (In the home campaign I play, I'm taking quicken spell at 15 - mmm, 6 scorching rays all +6d6 when greater invisible). What I find is the most useful is to be the party's problem solver. I will say that skill ranks are a problem - I have a human with 16 int and there don't ever seem to be enough. You'll really really need to max stealth, perception, and disable device to be the party "rogue" - other things, like bluff, diplomacy, UMD, spellcraft, acrobatics, etc are nice, but I wouldn't try to keep them all maxed. In combat, I really spend s lot of time doing buffs - the party fighter likes enlarge, fly, etc. (Our group rarely has time to buff before combat) Ranged legerdemain is great for rogue stuff - 30 ft away is out of range of a lot of traps if you accidentally set them off. I guess what I'm trying to say, is if you get into the "spirit" of the class as an adventuring skeleton key for problems, your party will still value you even if you don't always kick out the most DPS.
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Here's the guy I play in a local campaign... spent quite a bit of time min/maxing him. I think he's pretty effective.
The Magical Knack trait is not allowed for Pathfinder Society characters, although it is certainly legal for your home game. (For the benefit of the original poster and anyone else who may want to do something similar in PFS).
Well what an AT loses in skills he makes up for in spells. Sure he might not max out stealth... but with invisibility thrown on and fly he's pushing a lot of bonuses into it. He might not deal a lot of damage with his sneak attack... but he can still cause situations that allow more control of the battlefield than a rogue has.
The AT is a wildcard -- when a mage won't work he's a rogue (with options) and when a rogue won't work he's still a mage -- and in those times when you want both in one (sneak attack big spell for example) he has that too.
The deal with the AT is that you can't pin him down like you would a mage or a rogue -- you got to pin him with both at once or he'll get pass you.
Actually a wizard shadowdancer is going to suffer massively compared to the wizard 3/ rogue 3.
First off he doesn't have trapfinding which hurts him some. Secondly he's lacking the sneak attack for his touch attacks, and his BAB is worse than the wizard 3/ rogue 3.
However you and I have been down this road before and for the sake of everyone else in the thread I suggest we avoid going down it again for the time being.
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Emphasis mine.Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6.
Thank you wonko: yes, it appears that I have bumfed it a little... :D I'm swapping a level of AT for a level of sorcerer so the correct build is Rog3/Sor4/AT7. Thanks for noticing that!
However for the purposes of the conversation, that character still has spells known and spells per day as an 11th level sorcerer, with caster level 13 (via magical knack) and via spell penetration, greater spell penetration, and robe of the archimagi, is effectively at 1d20 + 19 on the check to beat SR. He has point blank shot and precise shot so as to effectively get rid of all negative mods when shooting his scorching ray. Adds 5d6 sneak attack when invisible to all three scorching rays (so three rays at 9d6 each).
Invisible, with nondetection turned on, with a stealth of +38 and with detect thoughts on... what fun can one have! :)
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Here's the guy I play in a local campaign... spent quite a bit of time min/maxing him. I think he's pretty effective.
So what does he do in a typical combat? How all is he effective? I don't see him really doing any damage to speak of at 14th level, yet most of his spells seem geared towards damage dealing.
Also I notice he's got around 400k of gear (offhand) which is well over twice the expected wealth based on the book guidelines. Is the rest of the party so over-equipped?
-James
Gear is 370K... I know it's huge but here's the breakdown, as per core rules:
Level 14: 185000
High Fantasy (Realms): x2
Total Character Wealth: 370000
He has point blank shot and precise shot so as to effectively get rid of all negative mods when shooting his scorching ray. Adds 5d6 sneak attack when invisible to all three scorching rays (so three rays at 9d6 each).
A small thing here, but you only get sneak dice for one of the rays on scorching ray. They are fired as a volley.
Likewise the +1 point blank damage.
-James
This is *technically* not true.
That was the rule in 3.5 but pathfinder does not have volley rules as of yet and nothing in core (and to my knowledge the APG) states you don't get sneak attack on multiple rays -- rather it says you get sneak attack on all attacks that meet the prerequisites. The only things that don't get sneak attack (like multishot) specifically state so.
In fact the volley rules were buried in a non-ogl book and as such are actually not available for offical pathfinder play.
Well you could also be a ninja/sorcerer since they both use charisma.