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If a target gets dropped to a Str of 1 via Ray of Enfeeblement and then is affected by something like a shadow's attack or Chill Touch- do they drop to a 0 str? or stay at 1 str?
Ray of Enfeeblement
A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half. This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead.
Well, in the case of your examples, the two stack fully. Why? Because ray of enfeeblement is a Strength penalty (meaning it reduces your effective Strength) while Shadows and chill touch cause Strength damage (which works like nonlethal damage, in that it counts up and is compared to your current Strength score).
Stacking penalties where different penalties have different minimums is something that isn't covered by the rules.
Well, in the case of your examples, the two stack fully. Why? Because ray of enfeeblement is a Strength penalty (meaning it reduces your effective Strength) while Shadows and chill touch cause Strength damage (which works like nonlethal damage, in that it counts up and is compared to your current Strength score).
Stacking penalties where different penalties have different minimums is something that isn't covered by the rules.
Right, my concern was with Ray of Enfeeblement's The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. I'm just curious if this would protect the subject from a 0 Str score or not.
Thanks Zurai, much appreciated.
It won't affect Ability Damage at all, because Ability Damage doesn't actually change your score. I could see someone saying that it protects from Ability Drain or further Penalties to Ability Scores, but I'd say that isn't the intent of the spell.
The (min 1) clause is there to prevent an empowered ray of enfeeblement from more or less automatically rendering a non-melee character unconscious, not to shield characters from being reduced to 0 Strength by other effects.
That all said, the interaction isn't covered by the rules. It's pretty much up to the DM.
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After consulting the text and gesturing about how this might be worded better I have come to the following conclusion.
The strength penalty can never cause a creature to fall below 1 strength, regardless of other strength drain/damage and the like.
A penalty to strength is not the same as damage to the score, or even a drain on it.
Lets say for instance someone has a baseline strength score of 14
Now lets say that character has 5 strength damage from a couple doses of dragons bile.
Additionally lets say something hit him with a strength drain of 3
This brings his current strength score down to 6.
Then comes along mean little wizard and he hits him with a RoE, and lasers him for 6 strength penalty.
Does he have 0 strength? The answer is NO!
He has 1 strength because a penalty stacks up just like damage or drain but cannot cause them to hit 0.
The same can be said to occur in the case of the RoE hitting first and then the poisons coming along the next round. 6 penalty, 3 drain, and 5 damage come flying out of Pandora's box at your unlucky little guy. This adds up to 14 yet again but as the RoE is a penalty, it prevents the creature from hitting zero as it is doing at least part of the work to get them to that number.
It won't affect Ability Damage at all, because Ability Damage doesn't actually change your score. I could see someone saying that it protects from Ability Drain or further Penalties to Ability Scores, but I'd say that isn't the intent of the spell.
The (min 1) clause is there to prevent an empowered ray of enfeeblement from more or less automatically rendering a non-melee character unconscious, not to shield characters from being reduced to 0 Strength by other effects.
That all said, the interaction isn't covered by the rules. It's pretty much up to the DM.
In that case there are going to be some very un-happy players in the near future mwhahaha.
It won't affect Ability Damage at all, because Ability Damage doesn't actually change your score. I could see someone saying that it protects from Ability Drain or further Penalties to Ability Scores, but I'd say that isn't the intent of the spell.
The (min 1) clause is there to prevent an empowered ray of enfeeblement from more or less automatically rendering a non-melee character unconscious, not to shield characters from being reduced to 0 Strength by other effects.
That all said, the interaction isn't covered by the rules. It's pretty much up to the DM.
I love the new ray. I have a few DMs that favor undead. And just give me sour looks when I give undead strength penalities..
I love the new ray. I have a few DMs that favor undead. And just give me sour looks when I give undead strength penalities..It won't affect Ability Damage at all, because Ability Damage doesn't actually change your score. I could see someone saying that it protects from Ability Drain or further Penalties to Ability Scores, but I'd say that isn't the intent of the spell.
The (min 1) clause is there to prevent an empowered ray of enfeeblement from more or less automatically rendering a non-melee character unconscious, not to shield characters from being reduced to 0 Strength by other effects.
That all said, the interaction isn't covered by the rules. It's pretty much up to the DM.
from the bestiary :
"Undead Traits (Ex) Undead are immune to death
effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms,
compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns),
paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires
a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects
or is harmless). Undead are not subject to ability drain,
energy drain, or nonlethal damage. Undead are immune
to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores
(Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to
fatigue and exhaustion effects. Undead are not at risk of
death from massive damage.
Format: undead traits; Location: Immune."
The ray doesn't work on undead because :
1) they are immune to effects that require a fortitude save unless it affects objects.
2) they are immune to penalties to their physical scores
After consulting the text and gesturing about how this might be worded better I have come to the following conclusion.
The strength penalty can never cause a creature to fall below 1 strength, regardless of other strength drain/damage and the like.
A penalty to strength is not the same as damage to the score, or even a drain on it.
Lets say for instance someone has a baseline strength score of 14
Now lets say that character has 5 strength damage from a couple doses of dragons bile.
Additionally lets say something hit him with a strength drain of 3
This brings his current strength score down to 6.
Then comes along mean little wizard and he hits him with a RoE, and lasers him for 6 strength penalty.
Does he have 0 strength? The answer is NO!
He has 1 strength because a penalty stacks up just like damage or drain but cannot cause them to hit 0.The same can be said to occur in the case of the RoE hitting first and then the poisons coming along the next round. 6 penalty, 3 drain, and 5 damage come flying out of Pandora's box at your unlucky little guy. This adds up to 14 yet again but as the RoE is a penalty, it prevents the creature from hitting zero as it is doing at least part of the work to get them to that number.
Your calculations are flawed. Ability damage never reduces the ability score in the Pathfinder RPG. It only applies penalties to secondary abilities depending on the relevant ability. If you have Strength 14, and take 5 Strength damage, you still have Strength 14 for all intents and purposes, but you take a -2 penalty to anything Strength derived (for example, melee attack rolls, climb checks, etc.) . Drain, however, does indeed reduce your ability score.
Your calculations are flawed. Ability damage never reduces the ability score in the Pathfinder RPG. It only applies penalties to secondary abilities depending on the relevant ability. If you have Strength 14, and take 5 Strength damage, you still have Strength 14 for all intents and purposes, but you take a -2 penalty to anything Strength derived (for example, melee attack rolls, climb checks, etc.) . Drain, however, does indeed reduce your ability score.
Are you sure?
I can see how that would become very confusing. Staying with your example, if you have a Strength of 14 and take 5 STR damage, doesn't your effective strength become 9, which would be a swing of a -3 to your roll, not a -2 (+2 to -1).
Yes, I see your point that your ability score isn't permanently down 5, it truly is 14, but at least until the effects are worn off from Ray of Enfeeblement, wouldn't it be effectively a 9?
Are you sure?
Yes.
I can see how that would become very confusing. Staying with your example, if you have a Strength of 14 and take 5 STR damage, doesn't your effective strength become 9, which would be a swing of a -3 to your roll, not a -2 (+2 to -1).
Yes, I see your point that your ability score isn't permanently down 5, it truly is 14, but at least until the effects are worn off from Ray of
Enfeeblement, wouldn't it be effectively a 9?
There is no such thing as an "effective score". Read the rules on ability damage (emphasis mine):
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
In your example, your Strength score would be reduced by the drain and the penalty from the ray, and on top of that you get the -2 penalty to derived stuff from the damage.
Ok, seems pretty clear then. Thanks.
Going to have to double-check the RAW for my 3.5 book. If it's the same, we've been doing it wrong all along.
Ok, seems pretty clear then. Thanks.
Going to have to double-check the RAW for my 3.5 book. If it's the same, we've been doing it wrong all along.
No, this is a departure from the 3.5 rules. In 3.5 ability damage did indeed reduce your ability score.
Oh, ok. Well, that is good at least (that we haven’t been doing it wrong).
I wonder why Paizo changed it with Pathfinder.
I wonder why Paizo changed it with Pathfinder.
Probably to reduce the necessity of on-the-fly recalculation of things like encumbrance, or maybe even to reduce the interaction of ability damage and penalties, like the original question/problem raised in this thread.
I wonder why Paizo changed it with Pathfinder.Probably to reduce the necessity of on-the-fly recalculation of things like encumbrance, or maybe even to reduce the interaction of ability damage and penalties, like the original question/problem raised in this thread.
Also so people do not spontaneously lose access to feats and PrC abilities, which was the case in 3.5.. even though nobody I know played according to those rules.
Also so people do not spontaneously lose access to feats and PrC abilities, which was the case in 3.5.. even though nobody I know played according to those rules.I wonder why Paizo changed it with Pathfinder.Probably to reduce the necessity of on-the-fly recalculation of things like encumbrance, or maybe even to reduce the interaction of ability damage and penalties, like the original question/problem raised in this thread.
Oh, we have never played by that, either. Losing carrying capacity, yes. But feats, spells, PrC abilities, no.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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It won't affect Ability Damage at all, because Ability Damage doesn't actually change your score. I could see someone saying that it protects from Ability Drain or further Penalties to Ability Scores, but I'd say that isn't the intent of the spell.
The (min 1) clause is there to prevent an empowered ray of enfeeblement from more or less automatically rendering a non-melee character unconscious, not to shield characters from being reduced to 0 Strength by other effects.
That all said, the interaction isn't covered by the rules. It's pretty much up to the DM.
It actually is covered. Penalties can't make you go below one, period, so unless the damage *by itself* is enough to take you to 0, you don't pass out.
Thanks for the clarification all! Much appreciated.