RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
It's been mentioned in several sources that Xin was an outcast Azlanti. Thassilon didn't fall in -10,000 AR, it fell 10,000 years before RotRL which at the time of printing was 4707 AR. Can't remember if Xin was heretical or just wanted to strike out on his own.Ahh I see. So Thasslion actually fell in -5293. Thank you.
And it still hasn't gotten up... someone get that empire a med-alert bracelt, stat!
Creative Director
|
1. From what I have read of Golarians history in RotRL Thassilon was founded at about -11000 AR by Emperor Xin and experienced a cataclysm at about -10000 that destroyed the empire. Now in the intro to Second Darkness I am reading: "Earthfall—it shattered the continent of Azlant and murdered a race, triggered the fall of Thassilon, created the Inner Sea, and plunged the world into an age of darkness." Earhfall occurred in -5293 AR. How could Earthfall have triggered the fall of Thassilon when Thassilon had already fallen in -10000 AR? By the time Earthfall occurred Thassilon had already been destroyed for 5000 years.
I'm not sure if I'm seeing any place that mentions a date of –11,000 AR at all... Thassilon and Azlant BOTH collapsed at about the same time, as a result of Earthfall and, in Thassilon's case, was aggravated by its leaders basically abandoning their nations by going into protective hiding/stasis after they learned of the upcoming devastation. Thassilon fell about 10,000 years ago, but that doesn't equate to –10,000 AR.
2. I don't know when Azlant was created but in SD it says "when Azlanti exiles fled to that region to found Thassilon" which means Azlant existed before Thassilon. If this is the case I'm not sure why there were "exlies" from Azlant. They weren't exiles from Earthfall since at the time Thassilon was founded Earthfall was still 5000 years away.
We haven't revealed when the Azlant empire started, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY longer than 10,000 years ago, which is when that empire collapsed. The reason Xin and his nations fled or were exiled from Azlant isn't something we've gone into much detail yet, but he DID leave Azlant to found Thassilon.
3. I guess this means Emperor Xin was an Azlanti?
Yup. So were the Runelords.
|
Ahh I see. So Thasslion actually fell in -5293. Thank you.
Give or take a bit. I went with 4707AR for RotRL because, initially at least, the informal start time for an AP was the year it was published just trading 2007AD/4707AR, 2008AD/4708AR, 2009AD/4709AR...or is it now the 4800's? You get the idea though :)
|
Creative Director
|
...response
Thanks for the response. The error was mine. I interpreted "10,000 years ago" as "-10,000 AR" which is incorrect.
As a side note, I was all set to run Kingmaker for my group after we finish RotRL but now I am considering Second Darkness. SD seems to make a nice follow up to RotRL as we learn what caused Thassilons fall and even have a relic tied to Karzoug.
However the criticisms of Second Darkness on these boards is making me hesitate since I do agree with the larger complaints I have seen. It seems like it is the least well received of the APs and I am loath to have my players invest themselves in a (apparently) sub-par AP when (apparently) better ones are available. Kingmaker for instance is almost universally lauded. So torn I remain.
Keep in mind that Kingmaker isn't all out yet, and that Kingmaker is a VERY different campaign from the traditional, so that doesn't mean it's for everyone.
Second Darkness is VERY steeped in the drow of Golarion, and it's probably the most railroady of all the adventure paths we've produced (with the 5th part in the series being the most railroady adventure we've printed, I think, and the 4th part having a plot development that can make things VERY awkward for paladins and characters who don't want to lie or deceive).
Personally, I don't think it's fair to call Second Darkness a sub-par AP—it DOES have a fair number of fans who've enjoyed it, and if your players like the themes of drow, the Darklands, a mix of fantasy and sci-fi, and gray areas between good and evil, it's actually a pretty good choice.
And if you're interested in continuing to have your players learn more about Thassilon, either Curse of the Crimson Throne OR Second Darkness would be great choices, because both of those APs have elements that reveal more about Thassilon and the ancient Runelords.
|
|
I do not think that Second Darkness is sub par at all.
The two drawbacks of this AP are IMO :
1 The start makes it seem like a pirate AP and it forks from this end of episode 2 (IIRC) into something DRASTICALLY different.
2 At some point
I know point 1 would be a killer point for some of my players, but basically, it is a solid AP, and some parts of it I really, really ennjoyed.
We haven't revealed when the Azlant empire started, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY longer than 10,000 years ago, which is when that empire collapsed. The reason Xin and his nations fled or were exiled from Azlant isn't something we've gone into much detail yet, but he DID leave Azlant to found Thassilon.
3. I guess this means Emperor Xin was an Azlanti?Yup. So were the Runelords.
Um. The Runelords were genetically Azlanti but culturally Thassalonian, yes? Or did the Runelords enter hibernation before the Thassalonian rune language was developed, separate from the Azlanti language? I've been thinking of Alaznist/Karzoug as "ancient Thassalonians", with any history pertaining to them being written in that rune language.
|
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Um. The Runelords were genetically Azlanti but culturally Thassalonian, yes? Or did the Runelords enter hibernation before the Thassalonian rune language was developed, separate from the Azlanti language? I've been thinking of Alaznist/Karzoug as "ancient Thassalonians", with any history pertaining to them being written in that rune language.We haven't revealed when the Azlant empire started, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY longer than 10,000 years ago, which is when that empire collapsed. The reason Xin and his nations fled or were exiled from Azlant isn't something we've gone into much detail yet, but he DID leave Azlant to found Thassilon.
3. I guess this means Emperor Xin was an Azlanti?Yup. So were the Runelords.
Correct. "Thassilonian" is not an ethnicity. The humans of Thassilon consisted primarially of Azlanti (the ruling caste), Varisians (the artisan/farming/provider caste), and Shoanti (the military/defense caste). Thassilonian as a language is a direct descendant of Azlanti, but with a strong Varisian/Shoanti/Giant influence.
There's not really any such thing as an "ancient Thassilonian." A "Thassilonian" was anyone who lived in Thassilon... and that could have been an Azlanti, a Varisian, a Shoanti, a giant, or frankly even an Ulfen or Skald.
|
Creative Director
|
1 The start makes it seem like a pirate AP and it forks from this end of episode 2 (IIRC) into something DRASTICALLY different.
And to be honest, this isn't a drawback of the Adventure Path as much as it is an error in how we presented the Adventure Path in the Second Darkness Player's Guide. We SHOULD have set up expectations that the Second Darkness AP would start in Riddleport but then focus on the fact that it's the first AP to venture beyond Varisia's borders; that it starts in Varisia but does not stay there. And perhaps also we should have not put such a strong focus on the Gold Goblin as a place the PCs might want to take control of, or better yet, should have tied it in to the rest of the AP more or provided some advice on how to run a business from long distance.
Now that the AP is out and GMs have the luxury of having the ENTIRE AP at their hands before they set things up, this probably isn't as huge a problem because you'll know going in what parts to emphasize and what parts to downplay.
|
|
I do not think that Second Darkness is sub par at all.
The two drawbacks of this AP are IMO :
1 The start makes it seem like a pirate AP and it forks from this end of episode 2 (IIRC) into something DRASTICALLY different.
2 At some point ** spoiler omitted **I know point 1 would be a killer point for some of my players, but basically, it is a solid AP, and some parts of it I really, really ennjoyed.
Well, introducing the AP as taking place in a lawless pirate city not so long after we watched Pirates of the Carribean 3 was bound to give you many Jack Sparrow clones ;-)
I still really look forward to playing my atypical paladin in this AP.
Do not worry, though : I did not look at the spoiler :-P
|
SD has two major problems:
1. The premise. Hey we're shady guys in a lawless city ! We're running interference for underground bosses ! And lo and behold, we're suddenly supposed to selflessly help a bunch of elven t$#&s who screw us over in return.
I know my group and I know that if I ran SD as written, they would just tell Kyonin "go screw yourself, we don't care if you get flattened by a meteorite" at some point.
2. Memory of Darkness. I just hope the author never writes a module for Paizo again, because having such a stinker as the PENULTIMATE (that one is for you, Sebastian) chapter of the AP is inconceivable. Brrr !
Yeah, I am taking the first two SD adventures and then making a proper pirate AP out of them. Didn't care for ElfyDrowWorld at all.
SD is a really interesting and cool experiment in adventure writing. They took some risks and such.
I think, as with many campaigns, the character creation assumptions will go a long way to determining if the storyline will "work." With regards to SD, as has been discussed in other threads, I think the following beginning assumptions help the story to function:
A) The party is all elven.
B) PCs have always dreamed of being a part of a certain elven organization. Romanticized view of the organization.
C) The PCs are understood as starting out as fledgling members of a certain elven organization, and/or are being tested to join.
Given the above, I believe you can run the whole AP as is without too many tough wrinkles.
|
|
Yeah, I am taking the first two SD adventures and then making a proper pirate AP out of them. Didn't care for ElfyDrowWorld at all.
In this case, you may want to read also :
- Dead Man's Chest by Necro games- the whole Freeport line from Green Ronin and some 3PP
- The Seafarer handbook from fantasy Flight
Hope it helps
(yes it means I have been heavily contemplating making a home-made Pirate AP at some point ...)
I am way, way ahead of you. I've already run them through Death and Terror in Freeport, interleaved with Shadow in the Sky with Riddleport and Freeport merged, and Madness in Freeport is coming up, to be followed by Children of the Void. (I've also added in a variety of other old 3.x adventures from Green Ronin and Atlas Games.) Then if Nick Logue ever gets his ass in gear and releases Razor Coast, it's going to be incorporated. And From Shore to Sea, Treasure of Chimera Cove, and other Gamemastery stuff.
We're already 22 sessions into the game; extensive session summaries are linked to from this Paizo thread! And taking inspiration from a bunch of supplements, I've put together my own naval combat rules and cannon/gunpowder rules.
Although frankly Serpent's Skull is very tempting to me, as my campaign already has serpentfolk and a "Ydersius beheaded" theme. I am evaluating whether I should just segue into it (the PCs are only 4th level, I love slow advancement), depends whether I can still keep the pirateyness going. Can't give up on the pirateyness.