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I don't have any problem with the Monk class, but it not "fitting" into the standard theme of Dungeons and Dragons was why it wasn't included in the 2nd edition Player's Handbook. At least that's the reason given in my old Dragon Magazine issue when they're talking about it.
I'm not 100% sure on why it got moved back in 3rd edition now that I think about it. We didn't get Cavalier after all...
I reaaaaaaly want to get my own copy of the APG now..Yes, styles.
The tiger style is direct, damaging, and fearless.
The crane involves dodging and acrobatics. More defensive.
The Rat style is all about surviving and freedom of movement.
The dragon style induces fear and is somewhat invunerable. Could create natural armor."Styles" are not included in the APG.
However, there are alternate monks with different class features (effectively variant classes): Drunken Master, Hungry Ghost Monk, Ki Mystic, Monk of the Empty Hand, Monk of the Four Winds, Monk of the Healing Hand, Monk of the Lotus, Monk of the Sacred Mountain, Weapon Adept, and Zen Archer.
...all of which sound decidedly -Eastern-. It's the only class that seems so locale specific. What if I don't want my Monk to be a kung pao martial arts zen master? Where's the "western" themed alternate Monk?
Well, as long as you don't mind cobbling it together, you could have the bare-knuckled brawler of the backstreets-- lose the slow fall for scaling bonuses on intimidate or knowledge(local) checks, or maybe a 'per day' bonus damage ability.. sub monk weapons for equivalent simple weapons, toss in some combat feats as bonus feats (for the pugilist)--
Yeah, you'd pretty much have to gut the class, or use an alternate class package that doesn't exist for the monk (yet-- nudge nudge).
Any help here?
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Don't you mean -Lawful- Brawler, Bruiser, Pugilist, etc?The Lawful thing is what prevents me from making half the Bruiser/Brawler concepts I'd love to play. The Lawful restriction seems to force the "spiritually enlightened martial artist" Eastern stereotype on any Monk I make. What if I want to play a Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral Dwarf who's really good at hand to hand but is in no way, shape or form "enlightened" about much of anything?
I'd love to see a western hand to hand class to address this. Something with some of the basic hand to hand abilities of a Monk (Keep Flurry, for example) without the Asian "my body is a temple" abilities. Heck, maybe I want my character's body to be a brewery! *laughs*
Agreed. I think the Monk as a class suffers from 'too much flavoring' much like like the 3.5 Warlock was (in my book) nothing more then a Sorcerer w/required flavoring because the Wotc Nazis had already decided Sorcerers ALL had Dragon blood (at least at that time) so they had to come out with something DARK AND KOOLER!!!!!
I think I would prefer a Brawler/HtH specialist which can be flavored into being an Oriental Monk much like the Cavilier, Oracle, and Sorcerer can be 'flavored to taste/alignment/concept' [i]one[i] of which can be 'monk'.
Basically, leave the Oriental flavoring for the player to add. At the same time make some spicy buffalo wings and a burger availible as another option.
All the Best,
Kerney
The fighter makes a fantastic street brawler/HtH fighter when you choose the right feats. A few feats that might help him survive without armor, and you have what you need.
The monk, on the other hand has a specific role in a DnD campaign, the monk represents a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture". That is why the monk is sort of a buffet of asian fantasy tropes. Sure there are local monasteries in various campaign worlds, but steps are taken to explain where and why that monastery originated, rather than just saying its there, like the local tavern or church. For some campaigns, monks make very little sense and that is ok. But for others monks are a reminder that world is a big place, full of very different people.
Edit- as for alignment, sure, many "monks" in movies are daoists, but not all daoists are monks. The dedication it takes perfect the physical strength and prowess that monks possess requires personal sacrifice that is demanding of a lawful alignment. That said, I think daoists don't put much stock in alignments.
I'm not going to tell people how to play, but I do appreciate honesty and verisimilitude.
If people say they want to play a "European" game, then I do appreciate them not using non-European monsters (ie. Elementals), non-European classes (ie. Druids), non-European weapons, etc.
European elementals, druids, etc. weren't as portrayed in the game.
My problem with 'European' games is that the folks espousing them so often forget to account for the fact that, when you start adding actual laser beams and dragons, something's gonna change. Dark ages Europe isn't dark ages Europe anymore once you've got Clerics who can cast Cure Disease on the nobility, making much of the Eurocentrism just plain silliness.
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The fighter makes a fantastic street brawler/HtH fighter when you choose the right feats. A few feats that might help him survive without armor, and you have what you need.
The monk, on the other hand has a specific role in a DnD campaign, the monk represents a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture".
I am currently playing Female Paladin who is ethnically Xian and worships the Sun Goddess and has a "Japanese" name, uses a "Naginata" (i.e. Ransuer). I don't need another class to represent a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture".
I therefore I have a deep dislike when we add classes like this pre-flavored. To me a Samurai is a Fighter, period. A ninja is a can be rogue, a Rogue/monk, a Rogue/Fighter or just a monk or even Bard, depending on your flavoring. A "realistic" Ninja organization would have all of those classes.
Most of the Pathfinder mechanics work this way. Monk is an exception. In addition it is mechanically superior to any unarmed/fighter brawler who is subpar for a fighter. I therefore prefer a unarmed class that can be a monk rather then a monk that can't be anything else.
All the Best,
Kerney
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I don't have any problem with the Monk class, but it not "fitting" into the standard theme of Dungeons and Dragons was why it wasn't included in the 2nd edition Player's Handbook. At least that's the reason given in my old Dragon Magazine issue when they're talking about it.
I'm not 100% sure on why it got moved back in 3rd edition now that I think about it. We didn't get Cavalier after all...
Or the Assassin or the Archer.
I am currently playing Paladin who is ethnically Xian
Shouldn't it be "Xianese"?
[...].
I'd love to know what other folks think. Are martial arts too "eastern" for a sword and sorcery/high fantasy genre game?
[...]
No, to me, monks don't really fit the genre. But if you run a Oriental campaign they will work just fine.
That said we now run a campaign were the line up is: Monk, Druid, Sorcerer, fighter, cleric. I don't really mind if someone wants to play a monk, but to me Monks have always been a class that don't really fit the genre.
I'm not going to tell people how to play, but I do appreciate honesty and verisimilitude.
If people say they want to play a "European" game, then I do appreciate them not using non-European monsters (ie. Elementals), non-European classes (ie. Druids), non-European weapons, etc.
European elementals, druids, etc. weren't as portrayed in the game.
Um, yeah. Druids are definitely European.
And as for the elementals, It's all in how you describe and role play them. The Lady of the Lake could be a water elemental.
*Edited*
People never seem to have a problem with the genie, Janni, and Efreeti.
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Shouldn't it be "Xianese"?
I am currently playing Paladin who is ethnically Xian
Shiba Natsue politely makes the distinction "Rokuganese". Xian is the kingdom to across the narrow sea. If asked the difference, she would state that she and all the ruling clans of Rokugan is descended from from the Kami which you Gai-umm westerners choose to name Sarenrae.
All the best,
Kerney
Shiba Natsue politely makes the distinction "Rokuganese". Xian is the kingdom to across the narrow sea. If asked the difference, she would state that she and all the ruling clans of Rokugan is descended from from the Kami which you Gai-umm westerners choose to name Sarenrae.
Don't worry, we all know you were about to say "Gaikokujin"
My problem with 'European' games is that the folks espousing them so often forget to account for the fact that, when you start adding actual laser beams and dragons, something's gonna change. Dark ages Europe isn't dark ages Europe anymore once you've got Clerics who can cast Cure Disease on the nobility, making much of the Eurocentrism just plain silliness.I'm not going to tell people how to play, but I do appreciate honesty and verisimilitude.
If people say they want to play a "European" game, then I do appreciate them not using non-European monsters (ie. Elementals), non-European classes (ie. Druids), non-European weapons, etc.
European elementals, druids, etc. weren't as portrayed in the game.
Yep.
People who want "European" game is just a rather thin veil for "I hate x element and need an excuse to get rid of it, also non-white people scare me."
Well, perhaps not that far ;)
But "realism" and "versilimitude?" Those never enter the equation as anything more then excuses.
Again, you could easily take the stats of elementals and describe them as such, no need to make new stats for them.
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And as for the elementals, It's all in how you describe and role play them. The Lady of the Lake could be a water elemental.
*Edited*
People never seem to have a problem with the genie, Janni, and Efreeti.-European- elementals were the sylph, undine, salamander, and gnome, -not- the elementals in the game.
Those are western varients just like Efreeti and company are middle eastern variants. There is no reason either of these cannot be flavored for the other. There is no reason you cannot use a Marid's stats then dress her in dark ages European fluff to represent the 'Lady of the Lake.'
All the Best,
Kerney
If we were discussing monks, how did elementals, druids, and pineapples get brought up?
Also describing the elementals differently would not be a house rule, it states in there description that they can take different forms.
Fire elementals vary in appearance—they usually manifest as coiling serpentine forms made of smoke and flame, but some fire elementals take on shapes more akin to humans, demons, or other monsters in order to increase the terror of their sudden appearance. Features on a fire elemental's body are made by darker bits of flame or patches of semi-stable smoke, ash, and cinders.
A druid was a member of the priestly class in Gaul and likely other parts of Celtic western Europe during the Iron Age.
You also avoided answering about the different forms of elementals.
P.S. You also left out Pineapples ;-)
Um, yeah. Druids are definitely European.I'm not going to tell people how to play, but I do appreciate honesty and verisimilitude.
If people say they want to play a "European" game, then I do appreciate them not using non-European monsters (ie. Elementals), non-European classes (ie. Druids), non-European weapons, etc.
European elementals, druids, etc. weren't as portrayed in the game.
This is like taking a pineapple, deciding to call it a "radish", and saying, "see, I can point to all this evidence that medieval Europe had radishes, so it doesn't make sense to say that they didn't have pineapples!"
As politely as I can figure out how to say this, your logic is lacking something important.
No. Your "logic" is to bring up some nonsense about radishes and pineapples when it is clear that Druids have a European heritage, and thus are a "European class." End of story.
I don't know how the druid is written in golarion, only pathfinder core rule book. If you presented everything as it was originally, you would have a very boring game, no 20+ str, no magic, no monsters what so ever (none of them ever existed). Fantasy was added to make it interesting, so you should take the fantasy version of it, not the historical. IMO.
*edit*
at least somebody remembered the pineapples ;-)
I like the monk, I don't have a problem with it. Throughout this entire thread I have been bringing up different things in DnD that are not "European" (Mage, Magus, Genie, to name a few).
My constant insistence on the Pineapple has been my attempt to keep the thread light-hearted, this is a game after all.
I kinda see your point, but do you see mine? (any of them)
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Let me rejoin, Mikaze, with an admonishment not to patronize. It distracts from the ongoing conversation.
Then stop providing just cause for the patronizing.
All the obfuscating and digs don't do anything to progress the discussion. It just raises the temperature and creates Internet duels betwwen people who would otherwise be on the same page.
Similar to the points you were making, there is a lot of non European stuff in the game, many of which people don't seem to have a problem with. The monk just seems to be a hot button.
Suddenly having visions of Porky Pig as Friar Tuck.....
Yoiks, and away!!!!