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I'm prepping for Gen Con and putting my Cavalier together. My intent is to build something fun and different with the character, so the idea has always been to multi-class into bard at some point for a level or two.
To prep for this, I took the trait that lets you pick one spell and lets you cast it with metamagic as one level lower than intended (in this case, I intended to cast a spell with the still spell feat with no level increase).
I know this character isn't ideal, but I do want to make it the most fun and interesting character I can without losing too much effectiveness while playing, thus why I'm coming to you guys.
The following are my nitpicky sticking points:
1. When should I take the first level of bard. Should I just get it out of the way at level 2, or should I wait for level 3 when I can get my still spell feat (I intend to take mounted combat at level 1)?
2. What spell should I take with my trait? The first spell will be feather fall (which has no somatic component) and I'm leaning towards expeditious retreat for the second (the character is in heavy armor, so it would be a handy spell to have), but are there other, better, options?
3. Should I stop at 1 level of bard, or should I take two? The second level of bard would get me versatile performance with singing, two more rounds of inspire courage, and an extra casting of my spells, and an extra level 0 and level 1 spell, but I would lose out on two levels (levels 11 and 12) of improvements for my mount (which isn't as awful as it sounds) and an additional multiplier on damage when charging. If I do decide to go for two levels, when should I consider taking the second?
If I think of more questions I'll post 'em.
Well, interestingly enough, the Cavalier is one of the classes that gains no "massive" benefit from hitting 20... Okay, double damage on a mounted charge is pretty fun, but it's not nearly as crazy as, say, monk's level 20 bonus.
Anywho, I GM'd a game with a cavalier that went dipped into fighter. Most of his back-story reasoning was questionable at best, but his game-play reasoning was simple: more feats sooner. Which leads me to the answers:
Anywho, question 1: When do you want the bard bonuses (see question 3 answer)? It simply boils down to that; take them sooner, and you'll be able to be more versatile early on. Though know that all your abilities will always be behind what the other players may be.
Question 2: How often will you be mounted? If often, you may not need expeditious retreat, though it can be useful when your dismounted for whatever reason. Personally, I'd pick a spell where I'd have some use for it if I couldn't move my limbs.
Question 3: Take two levels. An extra challenge per day isn't game-breaking.
And no, your not crazy; cavalier and bard are team classes, so they mesh well.
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Thanks Lex,
The character actually came about as I was writing up the original stats for a halfling Cavalier. I wanted him to have a better-than-average charisma, and I figured as a Cavalier of the Order of the Shield, making him a follower of Cayden who loved to drink and sing would be a fun element. Once I realized I wanted to give him a rank in singing, I looked at the difference between a level 11 and a level 12 Cavalier and decided it's not that awful, so thus Rowlan Chire, the singing Cavalier was born.
I did a little more digging/thinking and figured out a few things.
1. I'm still torn between level 2 and level 3 for when I take my bard level. I think the inspire courage can be put off, and the spells are virtually useless (except feather fall) until I can cast them using still spell (which I'll take at level 3). The only reason I can think of for taking bard at 2 is for flavor, and for the ability to use cure light wound wands.
It will be level 2 or 3, but I know not which.
2. I'm completely lost on which spell to take. After re-reading the class I noticed that Cavalier's don't get the Share Spells ability (I missed that the first time) which completely eliminates the awesomeness of casting expeditious retreat on my heavily encumbered mount who's barely able to carry his own gear, let alone a rider. So now I'm left without a good idea of what to take. My CHA isn't high enough for an offensive spell like grease, and I loathe to take cure light wounds as its usefulness after the first few levels is pretty minimal.
Any advice here is more than welcome.
3. I will take two levels of bard. I lose the bonus feat and demanding challenge (which I already knew I was going to lose for one level of bard) and the only ability I lose for not being 11 is one that improves the crit range on my weapon during charges. Since level 11 has no inherent saving throw bonuses or Mount improvements over level 10, I might as well take the second level of bard.
Now to decide what level I want to take the second level of bard at.
This seems like such a cool character to play. Have fun
If you watch the old Ivanhoe from the 50s or 60s, Ivanhoe is a knight but he sings and travels as a minstrel. Cavalier/Bard is always a colorful choice.
A problem that I ran across trying to do this:
A bard can ignore the arcane spell failure chance for light armor and shields only, so you would have to miss out on the cavalier's heavy armor proficiency (or on a lot of the bard's best spells).
Is this organized play? What material do you have access to. There was a feat in 3.5 (i think it was called battlecaster?) that could at least get you to medium armor, or mirthal heavy armor.
A problem that I ran across trying to do this:
A bard can ignore the arcane spell failure chance for light armor and shields only, so you would have to miss out on the cavalier's heavy armor proficiency (or on a lot of the bard's best spells).
That is why he is taking still spell. No arcane spell failure when you have no somatic components.
Personally, I am a fan of lvl 5 bard. But definetely go 2.
For spells, I'm a fan of silent image and grease. Remove Fear also has a lot of flavor with the build.
I recommend for multiclass bards picking up the extra performances.
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That is why he is taking still spell. No arcane spell failure when you have no somatic components.
Personally, I am a fan of lvl 5 bard. But definetely go 2.
For spells, I'm a fan of silent image and grease. Remove Fear also has a lot of flavor with the build.
I recommend for multiclass bards picking up the extra performances.
Thanks Chaineach, you usually provide some really good insights on these types of questions.
You're absolutely right. Still Spell plus the Magical Lineage Trait for one level 1 spell will let me cast without fear of armor. If I go two levels of bard I'll still need to figure out what the heck I'm going to take for the third slot that I won't be able to cast with still spell (feather fall has no somatic component so it can be cast anyway), but overall it should work. I like the idea of silent image and remove fear, but as much as I like grease in practice, my not-so-spectacular charisma will make my saves far too easy to resist.
I too like level 5 bard, but it would hurt my mount too much. If I were a pure fighter/bard I'd be all over it, but as a Cavalier first and foremost it's just not an option.
Stats so far are:
15 Strength (17 base -2 for halfling)
14 Dex (12 base +2 halfling required for precise strike)
14 Con
10 Int (I like skill points)
10 Wis
12 Cha (10 base +2 halfling)
I'll consider extra performances, but it might be awhile since I'll be a little feat hungry for awhile (I need mounted combat, still spell, spirited charge, and vital strike as quickly as I can).
Thanks again though for the thoughts.
I'm a fan of getting to the character you want right away. In that case, it means cavalier bard, not cavalier who might be a bard someday.
I'd go cav 1/bard 1/and right back to cavalier...
As for the armor issue, is this a Pathfinder Society character? If so, I'd have two suits of armor. A heavy suit of armor for when you are the front line, and light suit of armor for when you are the only spell caster. You can also sleep in it, and it's good for boat trips, narrow bridges, etc.
As for spells, I'd grab Summon Instrument for flavor reasons. I agree about Feather Fall too. Perhaps something like Disguise Self? Lots of fun to be had there.
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Multiclass early. As someone else mentioned you get to play the character you wanted earlier and I wouldn't worry about being "gimped" or anything in PFS. The modules are relatively challenging, but it doesn't require everyone at the table to min/max to play through. Also, since you never know who else will be at your table, variety is a good thing in case you have table of non-spellcasters.
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You might contemplate waiting just a bit, if you can, before planning too far ahead. Just saying, there might be some things that interest you in an upcoming publication.
This was fantastic advice. I absolutely adore the Battle Herald PrC. Now it looks like there might be some adjusting (namely trying to fit in the feat from Seekers of Secrets to give me a +4 to my mount's level for multiclassing into it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You might contemplate waiting just a bit, if you can, before planning too far ahead. Just saying, there might be some things that interest you in an upcoming publication.This was fantastic advice. I absolutely adore the Battle Herald PrC. Now it looks like there might be some adjusting (namely trying to fit in the feat from Seekers of Secrets to give me a +4 to my mount's level for multiclassing into it.
Happy to help. Couldn't really say much more about it until it officially dropped, but obviously it's right up your alley. Glad you liked it. Hope it plays fun for you!