Usually, I just roll with it, but every now and again something catches my eye and the world just breaks down for me.
Kingmaker #5 did it for me. The harmony of the world seemed intact up through #4 (having the easy boggards on one end, then lots of legendary enemies on the other made the power of the world "feel right").
However, we now have scads of Pitax Wardens & Heralds that are all higher level than the PCs were through #1, and higher level than the bandits leiutenants in book #1. Any one of these mooks has a decent chance of becoming the next Stag Lord.
And once you get into Ivoretti's Palace, you're confronted with his bodygaurds: level 5 trolls. These random bodygaurds are higher level (and CR) than Hargulka, the King of the Trolls! Hargulka, the legendary king was able to keep all of Mivon at bay for generations (see Guide to the River Kingdoms).
And who is this Villimor Koth guy that comes outta nowhere? And why does he get to be level 15? That's the max level most ever PCs get to (if other AP XP-curves are to be believed). If he was a wizard, he'd have 8th level spells. Yikes! And he's not even (story/world/plot-wise) as cool or relevant as Armag.
I know it has to happen, that's just the nature of powerscaling in D&D (and most other games really, be they P&P or CPU). But it still gets to me. I guess it didn't feel as wrong in the other APs because you were fighting really exotic stuff (for example, it felt totally natural in Legacy of Fire - wishcraft covered for a lot of that madness). But I get the impression Kingmaker is trying to act a bit on the low-magic side. It just gets all out of sync in weird ways.
There's no real cure for this. (Unless Paizo ever plans on releasing an E6 AP.) I just wanted to share my eyebrow twitch.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I know what you mean, and it drives me nutty too. You'll have these low level scenarios, where a CR 5 baddie is threatening a town or a region, and a single 8th or 9th level hero could come in and deal with it easily, but it falls on the 2nd level PCs to do so. On top of that, you'll encounter CR 7 baddies who could easily be in such a leadership position and living like kings, but are instead bringing bunny slippers and coffee to a CR 10 baddie.
I feel your pain and share the eyebrow twitch.
Creative Director
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The cure is to keep this in mind:
If the PCs adventure long enough to reach level 13, then that is enough time for NPCs to gain at least half that number of experience levels. In Kingmaker in particular, it's likely that YEARS pass between the PCs being 1st level and reaching this adventure at 13th level. PLENTY of time for Irovetti to not only gain levels himself, but to see to it that his troops are "trained up" and gain levels as well.
If it's STILL a problem, then I suppose one solution is to just replace the high-level stats that break verisimilitude for you with lower level stats. The PCs won't gain as much XP and they won't be as challenged, but on the other hand, wading through lots of low CR foes is kind of fun now and then and it will CERTAINLY help your PCs feel high level.
And as for Koth, that's a problem where we SHOULD have foreshadowed that character in earlier products, or where the author SHOULD have picked a character we HAVE foreshadowed already. It's also a place where a GM can take matters into his own hands and foreshadow the character on his own; it's harder to do if you're running an AP as they come out, though.
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Creative Director
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One other thing to ask yourself:
Do your PLAYERS seem to care about this? Remember, the players aren't as familiar with the adventure's text as the GM, and they don't have the "luxury" of being able to compare stat blocks. In fact, many players don't even think this way at all—they're more interested in how their own character can grow more powerful than in explaining why the NPCs do.
So if this is just a problem in a GM's mind, but not something the players really even notice at all... then it's not really a problem in game anyway.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I can't speak for Erik, but my comments weren't intended as a criticism of you guys or Kingmaker. This is a feature of D&D, and by no means unique to Paizo. I realize it's one of those things that bugs me and doesn't interfere with the game 99.99% of the time,* but it's still fun to talk about the issue.
The leveling system in D&D is fun, the power curve it brings is fun, and this is just one of those side effects you learn to ignore if you don't like it.
Appreciate the tips though.
*Actually, I have a hard time imagining when it has interfered with a game, and nothing comes to mind.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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On top of that, you'll encounter CR 7 baddies who could easily be in such a leadership position and living like kings, but are instead bringing bunny slippers and coffee to a CR 10 baddie.Stop it with the jibber-jabber, Princess. My coffee's cold.
Here's your coffee sir. Booger-free...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Here's your coffee sir. Booger-free...On top of that, you'll encounter CR 7 baddies who could easily be in such a leadership position and living like kings, but are instead bringing bunny slippers and coffee to a CR 10 baddie.Stop it with the jibber-jabber, Princess. My coffee's cold.
Thanks. ... Say, why are you wearing my slippers?
And as for Koth, that's a problem where we SHOULD have foreshadowed that character in earlier products, or where the author SHOULD have picked a character we HAVE foreshadowed already.
Maybe I haven't been paying as close attention as I thought I was: who would that be referring to?
I think it is more easily explained that Pitax is a larger, more established city. There's a big difference between new, smaller towns like Varnhold and Tatzlford and Pitax which has been around a while. It's not like they were fighting the Swordlords in Restov before this.
As to why it's the PCs that have to do everything, well, that's partly the conceit of the game. They are the heroes in the area this time that respond to the call. If it makes you feel any better pretend there are NPCs that have wandered in to deal with Second Darkness, Rise of the Runelords, and Legacy of Fire right now while your PCs are busy.
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Creative Director
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And as for Koth, that's a problem where we SHOULD have foreshadowed that character in earlier products, or where the author SHOULD have picked a character we HAVE foreshadowed already.Maybe I haven't been paying as close attention as I thought I was: who would that be referring to?
This:
And who is this Villimor Koth guy that comes outta nowhere? And why does he get to be level 15? That's the max level most ever PCs get to (if other AP XP-curves are to be believed). If he was a wizard, he'd have 8th level spells. Yikes! And he's not even (story/world/plot-wise) as cool or relevant as Armag.
We SHOULD have foreshadowed what's going on in Pitax better than we did; making "War of the River Kings" match up with "Guide to the River Kingdoms" while still matching the author's vision for the adventure AND meshing well with the other five adventures was unusually tough, for various reasons.
But since we had to use different teams to write, edit, and develop the two products, it didn't end up matching over 100% perfectly.
And as for Koth, that's a problem where we SHOULD have foreshadowed that character in earlier products, or where the author SHOULD have picked a character we HAVE foreshadowed already.Maybe I haven't been paying as close attention as I thought I was: who would that be referring to?This:
And who is this Villimor Koth guy that comes outta nowhere? And why does he get to be level 15? That's the max level most ever PCs get to (if other AP XP-curves are to be believed). If he was a wizard, he'd have 8th level spells. Yikes! And he's not even (story/world/plot-wise) as cool or relevant as Armag.We SHOULD have foreshadowed what's going on in Pitax better than we did; making "War of the River Kings" match up with "Guide to the River Kingdoms" while still matching the author's vision for the adventure AND meshing well with the other five adventures was unusually tough, for various reasons.
But since we had to use different teams to write, edit, and develop the two products, it didn't end up matching over 100% perfectly.
I get that. (I did write both those posts afterall.) Sorry for not being more clear. What I meant to ask:
When you said "the author should have picked a character that had already been foreshadowed" I was wondering just who had been foreshadowed already that would have made for a good candidate for this role?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'd say two things about KM in general and WotRK in particular:
1. Because KM is designed as a much more gritty style of AP, it focuses a lot on human(oid) foes rather than monster. So, instead of a Fortress of the Stone Giants full of... well, giants that are the equivalent of 10th-ish level fighters, or instead of a forbidden prison plane full of genies that are the equivalent of 10th-ish level fighters... instead you have ACTUAL 10th level fighters (I'm speaking figuratively here).
The adventure/campaign roles are the same, just one has a bigger stat block than the other, which makes it more explicitly apparent that "this guys is tougher than the guy you fought 3-4 adventures ago."
The Stag Lord and Hargulka are locally famous because they are big fish in a little pond. They stand out amidst the mooks and rubes that live in the Stolen Lands. They came by their reps out in the school of hard knocks, but they didn't have to rise very far to stand out above the crowd.
Irovetti's house guards and wardens are the elite troops and commanders of an established kingdom, the best soldiers his money can buy. They never stood out because they were part of his army, or his personal retinue.
Joe Bob might be an all-league quarterback at North Flatbush High School, and everybody in the county thinks he walks on water, but when he goes off to college he may find out that there are a hundred guys on his college team, most of whom are just as big, strong, fast, tough, and skilled as he is; in fact, there are a couple dozen BETTER than him.
The Stag Lord and Hargulka are Joe Bob. The PCs are the rival high school's team that has taken them down and is now moving up to start playing at a higher level, and Irovetti's elite forces are the college team.
As Qui-Gon said, "There's always a bigger fish." :)
2. As to the author and the adventure and not necessarily fitting neatly with the rest of the AP, yes, that's an issue. WotRK is a bit of an odd adventure - it must contain the war, obviously, and it must have a final showdown with Irovetti. The tournament chapter was an idea I thought was a perfect fit for PCs stepping out and up into the world as rulers with a now-fairly-established kingdom of their own. There also is a side adventure built into it, and then the exploration and hexcrawl part, which I didn't really do much of at all in the turnover. At the same time, coordinating the whole thing was not doubt a challenge for James & Co; there were a lot of products flying around simultaneously, and trying to make sure everything lined up was tough.
From my end as the writer, this is one of those things that probably would have been helped a great deal by better communication during the writing process. That way, James wouldn't have had to work his magic to fill in or fix as much as he did in the end.
Unfortunately, focusing on writing and back-and-forth became difficult because of the grave (and ultimately terminal) illness of my brother , Brian Paul Nelson, to whose memory I dedicated the adventure (and named one of the tourney knights after). With that going on at the same time... well, you do what you can. Life (and death) intervene sometimes and you roll with the punches and keep on keepin' on.
I think the adventure is going to be a ton of fun to play, and I definitely enjoyed writing it, though it will always have a certain bittersweet connection for me. I think James' additions have tightened and focused the adventure and kept the vision fitting within the rest of the AP. Like so:
Irovetti's main bodyguard in my turnover was a gargantuan double-jotunblood troll and a couple of ogre magi bards who would go around disguised as ordinary humans; you wouldn't have heard of them because they wanted it that way. However, they were big fat cheating high-magic bastards who didn't really fit the RK motif; hence, instant replacement with a regular old human killmaster barbarian.
I'd say just roll with it. Just because there are higher-level NPCs in the world doesn't mean they have ever felt so motivated to intersect their lives with the PCs. It would've been nice to foreshadow him, but in a way that's what the tournament is for. PCs get to meet Villamor Koth, find out that he is a hardcore killcrazy rampager, but they just get to cross swords with him then. When they meet him again later on, they already know the score, and it's gonna be on like Donkey Kong.
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Creative Director
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When you said "the author should have picked a character that had already been foreshadowed" I was wondering just who had been foreshadowed already that would have made for a good candidate for this role?
The fact that there WASN'T an obvious choice for that role is likely why the author chose to put Koth into the fray. But apart from that, any of the other NPCs mentioned in the Pitax writeup or, frankly, any NPC mentioned in the "Guide to the River Kingdoms" could have fit that role. None of those were chosen for that role, so I can't say who would or wouldn't have made a good candidate. As it stands, we have Koth in that role, though. Which is fine with me! :-)
Huh. You know, I hadn't really thought about the "gritty" intentions of the AP, and how the NPCs were being built with less magic ties and more mundane creatures and what-not.
Kind of makes my plans for reinventing chunks of the AP with more magical components seem a little bit counter to the intention, but when every one of the PCs in my campaign is a spellcaster or manifester of some capacity, I think that's already a bit out the window...
@ James Jacobs & Jason Nelson:
I thoroughly enjoyed "War of the River Kings" (well, reading it anyway) and I have started up a second Pathfinder game (every other Sunday) just for "Kingmaker" and even though we are only a few encounters into it, everyone is enjoying it, me included.
I can't wait for the PCs to reach the level of facing off against Irovetti and "friends"... and I can't wait to see what happens.
And Jason, my most heart felt condolences to you and your family on the loss of your brother. He's in a much better place now, and he's smiling on the AWESOME adventure you wrote and the wonderful homage to his memory.
Cheers!
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
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I think the real solution to this is trying to foreshadow where you can. Inevitably, the players will pay attention to the people and facts that seem important to them(which is why Grau the drunk guard and the noble who was secretly a very important character in Crimson Throne kept annoying them whenever they showed up...they'd made their initial judgments and wrote them off), but if you have advance notice of a high-level threat that is a ways off, drop them in as a rumor or maybe have them pass through the kingdom as a "visiting celebrity" when the result comes up.
My group ended up forging a close relationship with Kressle after a long and difficult path to semi-redemption, and her childish hope that the Stag Lord would forge the Greenbelt into another Pitax has been a great way to drop information into the game. Everything from her attitude toward Irrovetti(who is just not bringing home the charmed remmorhaz as they begin to build their kingdom) to her hero worship of the Razor Ravens is probably going to be forgotten, but the hope is that when these characters show up later, they won't be mysteriously higher-level foes than any others face before, but part of the world that the group just hadn't got to yet.
(as for the high-level bodyguards and Pitax Wardens, I would play up how the bandits of the Greenbelt were more desperate in the end because Pitax became a dangerous place to ply their trade...if the Stag Lord wouldn't risk raiding there, it places the authorities in Pitax comfortably above his--and the players'--levels)
I am not going to have him as a barbarian. I think the guy from the Tiger Tribe should be the strongest barbarian in the area.
PS: Then again he could have been outcast from the Tiger Tribe for some reason.
The name may be wrong, so for anyone I confused, the Tiger Tribe are the barbarians the group has to deal with in book 4.
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I am not going to have him as a barbarian. I think the guy from the Tiger Tribe should be the strongest barbarian in the area.
PS: Then again he could have been outcast from the Tiger Tribe for some reason.
The name may be wrong, so for anyone I confused, the Tiger Tribe are the barbarians the group has to deal with in book 4.
I think there's a note in there that he's supposed to be replaced by Armag at the pivotal fight if Armag survived. I don't know if they're so similar for that reason.
If you didn't want to rebuild him, he could easily be more cosmopolitan without losing his class abilities. Or you could play off the relationship between Irovetti and Numeria and have Koth be a barbarian from that region. A few cosmetic changes could help that along, with strange metal piercings or symbols tattooed to his face and arms. If you really wanted to sell that he comes from Numeria, his weapon could be changed to something that's more exotic, like a piece of tech that's long since lost its charge and is only useful now as a club, spear, or blade.
I've been toying with the idea of abstracting this sort of thing. Basically telling my players that "one" of these enemies is actually 2 or 3 warriors fighting as one and treated as a single creature because I'm not going to try and move around 15 individual units.
I've been toying with the idea of abstracting this sort of thing. Basically telling my players that "one" of these enemies is actually 2 or 3 warriors fighting as one and treated as a single creature because I'm not going to try and move around 15 individual units.That's an interesting idea.
As a bonus killing "one" means I get to describe them killing 3 people rapidly. They feel more bad ass while still fighting something appropriately challenging.
Yeah, that's a traditional problem of Paizo APs. Due to this we have cowardly losers of the same level as PCs who went through several ridiculously dangerous quests (RotRL and SD, off the top of my head) and mooks that are level 2 if you meet them in the second adventure, but level 8 and more if you meet them in the final one (CotCT), even though PCs need to wade through a river of blood to gain the same amount of levels, and said mooks clearly did nothing on the sort. Of post-Dungeon APs, RotRL is perhaps the best at avoiding this problem, by having most of the top badguys be the sealed evil in a can, but I still was forced to place Fortress of the Stone Giants on another plane, to explain why the neighboring horde of giants haven't flattened the country in which installments ## 1-2 could happen plausibly and in a way that makes PCs look cool (and also, to explain giants' logistics).
I don't want people to take my tone too negatively. My title did say "strangeness" not "thing I hate."
Furthermore, my title included "D&D" for a reason: this is an inherited problem, and there's not much to do about it if you want to preserve backwards compatibility. Personally, I prefer horizontal advancement in games to vertical advancement, but D&D 1st through 3rd ED are extremely vertical systems. One of the things I love most about Pathfinder is that it fleshed out the horizontal side of things a bit.
Now, I'm certain that Paizo will put out a Pathfinder 2 or something in five or more years that is not backwards compatible with D&D as they start to forge their own direction. And at that point, I hope the new game isn't strongly tied to the vertical advancement paradigm. But on the other hand, it is what a lot of people expect. So we'll see.
I love the low magic feel of Kingmaker. (My other fav games are Pendragon and Artesia, so go figure.) It's just hard to really make sense of it given the rules set. But ever since DM Tippy has pointed out the flaws of making sense of things, I've decided perhaps I should not try. :-)
James probably makes the strongest point in his 2nd post: this really isn't the sort of thing the players notice or care about. It really is just something philosophical GMs muse about. So game on.
Actually, RotRL reversed the problem - boss of adventure 2 would obliterate bosses of adventure 3 and adventure 4 in a mano-a-mano (or rather lamio-a-gianto) fight.
Barl maybe. Mokmurian will destroy Xanesha easily even with his standard spell. Another reason that I stuck the giants on another plane is because a 14th-level wizard that intends to set your stuff on fire is a Big Deal, and, in fact, unless there is a higher-level active spellcaster in the land (in which case, why there still are ogres and lamia conspiracies around?) you can assume that your stuff is already on fire, before PCs have a chance to do anything. Mokmurian not knowing Plane Shift (or being reluctant to operate on plane of which he knows little about and away from most from his flunkies) is a valid excuse for PCs not being suddenly de-lifed by him soon after kicking Barl's ass.
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Actually, RotRL reversed the problem - boss of adventure 2 would obliterate bosses of adventure 3 and adventure 4 in a mano-a-mano (or rather lamio-a-gianto) fight.Barl maybe. Mokmurian will destroy Xanesha easily even with his standard spell. Another reason that I stuck the giants on another plane is because a 14th-level wizard that intends to set your stuff on fire is a Big Deal, and, in fact, unless there is a higher-level active spellcaster in the land (in which case, why there still are ogres and lamia conspiracies around?) you can assume that your stuff is already on fire, before PCs have a chance to do anything. Mokmurian not knowing Plane Shift (or being reluctant to operate on plane of which he knows little about and away from most from his flunkies) is a valid excuse for PCs not being suddenly de-lifed by him soon after kicking Barl's ass.
I tend to think of high-level characters as either static or evolved. If they evolve, then they likely have multiple stat blocks like all the major NPCs in Shackled City's hardcover or even Queen Ileosa throughout CotCT. If they're static, they probably wouldn't concern themselves with things so far below their pay grade. The lich has his own obsessions, the high-level fighter does his job, etc.
In season 7 of Buffy, there's this great line about why the First Evil has been bothering with lower level mooks instead of the great big army of blind monks it has in reserve: they tend to attract a little too much attention.
If they're static, they probably wouldn't concern themselves with things so far below their pay grade.
Won't work with anyone who has more ambition than a hamster, i.e. with nearly every high-level character. Heroes will go around fixing things simply because they are good and have power to fix things. Villains will proceed with their plans of domination, or simply go around and eat peasants because they can. In this particular case, if they have such a strong kingdom, they'll start pushing people around with their military power. Bigtime.
Also, going around and killing monsters and outlaws who are much weaker than them to take their stuff is the bestest way to get some quick cash for powerful individuals, at least until they run out of monsters and outlaws (for my campaigns I'm mitigating this by vastly reducing the loot on various mooks and low-level groups, and giving PCs most of their equipment through organizations and states who sponsor them).In season 7 of Buffy, there's this great line about why the First Evil has been bothering with lower level mooks instead of the great big army of blind monks it has in reserve: they tend to attract a little too much attention.
That's because the First Evil and its servants are weak. Higher-end DnD villains are strong. They, in fact, want attention, because how the population is going to kneel before them otherwise?
As about evolving villains, consider how much impact PCs must cause to advance similarly - what kinda-sorta works for one lynchpin villain, like Ileosa (and even then only through variois external infusions of power) doesn't work for every ranfom mook.
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When discussing leveling in a Kingmaker thread can we please cut out the spoilers for other APs.
I'm currently Level 6 in Curse of the Crimson Throne and don't really want to know things my characters don't know.
TBH this thread should probably have a spoiler warning in the title just for the Kingmaker content.
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If they're static, they probably wouldn't concern themselves with things so far below their pay grade.Won't work with anyone who has more ambition than a hamster, i.e. with nearly every high-level character. Heroes will go around fixing things simply because they are good and have power to fix things. Villains will proceed with their plans of domination, or simply go around and eat peasants because they can. In this particular case, if they have such a strong kingdom, they'll start pushing people around with their military power. Bigtime.
Also, going around and killing monsters and outlaws who are much weaker than them to take their stuff is the bestest way to get some quick cash for powerful individuals, at least until they run out of monsters and outlaws (for my campaigns I'm mitigating this by vastly reducing the loot on various mooks and low-level groups, and giving PCs most of their equipment through organizations and states who sponsor them).In season 7 of Buffy, there's this great line about why the First Evil has been bothering with lower level mooks instead of the great big army of blind monks it has in reserve: they tend to attract a little too much attention.That's because the First Evil and its servants are weak. Higher-end DnD villains are strong. They, in fact, want attention, because how the population is going to kneel before them otherwise?
As about evolving villains, consider how much impact PCs must cause to advance similarly - what kinda-sorta works for one lynchpin villain, like Ileosa (and even then only through variois external infusions of power) doesn't work for every ranfom mook.
The PCs have to do as much or as little as the DM wants them to do because it's their game. If it's really that important to level an entire world exactly the same way, it would be a lot of work but you could do it. An evolving villain is probably not getting XP for slaughtering monsters all day, though. In their case, it probably works out to story awards most of the time.
Why does a high-level NPC have to shake down peasants in his spare time? Depending on their alignment, they either wouldn't want to or wouldn't bother. Mostly because a few coppers seem pretty pointless to someone with the wealth of a 15th level NPC. Truthfully, you can have an NPC do anything you deem logical for the character. There's no automatic slaying of dragons or ogre clans. If you think they would, they would. But if it's going to throw the world out of balance, it might be better to give them different motivations.
An evolving villain is probably not getting XP for slaughtering monsters all day, though. In their case, it probably works out to story awards most of the time.
This approach requires moderation, lest players start asking question why other people so easily get things for which PCs spilled so much of their sweat and blood.
Why does a high-level NPC have to shake down peasants in his spare time?
Why, oh, every villain in every media ever have to do villainous stuff? Typical generic reasons off the top of my head: feeling of power, indulging socially unacceptable fetishes, feeding, genocidal nihilism, revenge on the world or its part, world-reshaping agenda, being inherently hostile to mortal life, evulz. To powerful villains money is just means to an end.
And on the other side of the fence, heroes tend to help low-level people simply because they happen to be around. This happens all the time in fiction as well, although, depending on media, heroes can be more reactive than proactive.Truthfully, you can have an NPC do anything you deem logical for the character.
Well, that's the point. I deem logical (and so do my usual players) that people who have superhuman power and, if they got it through leveling up, a great deal of determination and willpower, will actually use said power to affect the world. And, as being an ant caught on the playground of titans is not very fun, even if these titans are benevolent, this will make lives of low-level characters not very fun. In fact, most most Paizo APs recognize this, by making final batches of baddies inactive, residing on another plane, or not having sources of power they'll obtain later at the moment of adventure's beginning. I just believe that the cutoff point, after which NPCs become so powerful that their presence warps the setting hugely, is much lower than one generally assumed by these APs
This thread has wandered way off the topic of the Kingmaker AP. If you want to discuss this as a general issue, please take it to a more appropriate board.
Also, as GeraintElberion has said, spoilers from other APs are not appreciated. People often run one and play in another simultaneously.
Let's keep this topic constrained to Kingmaker: such as ways of introducing Villimor Koth earlier in the AP, or justifying where Ivoretti got so many powerful trolls from.
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This thread has wandered way off the topic of the Kingmaker AP.
That has an unfortunate tendency to happen when people get strongly opinionated. I'm going to learn to just stop commenting since there's always someone willing to turn comments into argument and I need to stop being part of the problem. Even when it's impossible to be right or wrong, people will still defend their opinions as though their entire way of life has been attacked. It's turning into a very ugly pattern every thread I read and I would rather stay out of it from now on since the only thing these threads have in common are me reading them and commenting.
To your on-topic question, my suggestion is to mention Koth whenever Irrovetti is first mentioned(loyal personal bodyguard, pride of every tournament, etc). The trolls are standard trolls with fighter levels, right? Drop in a mention somewhere during part two that the troll leader has lost a large number of followers to the lure of Irrovetti's recruiting campaign. If the trolls in part two are not defeated, have them show up in part five working for Irrovetti. By then, any low-level troll could conceivably be trained into an elite fighter.
This thread has wandered way off the topic of the Kingmaker AP.That has an unfortunate tendency to happen when people get strongly opinionated. I'm going to learn to just stop commenting since there's always someone willing to turn comments into argument and I need to stop being part of the problem. Even when it's impossible to be right or wrong, people will still defend their opinions as though their entire way of life has been attacked. It's turning into a very ugly pattern every thread I read and I would rather stay out of it from now on since the only thing these threads have in common are me reading them and commenting.
To your on-topic question, my suggestion is to mention Koth whenever Irrovetti is first mentioned(loyal personal bodyguard, pride of every tournament, etc). The trolls are standard trolls with fighter levels, right? Drop in a mention somewhere during part two that the troll leader has lost a large number of followers to the lure of Irrovetti's recruiting campaign. If the trolls in part two are not defeated, have them show up in part five working for Irrovetti. By then, any low-level troll could conceivably be trained into an elite fighter.
WG, that's a very good suggestion. And I think that would work out rather nicely. Thanks for taking the time to mention it. (I meant the Koth/Irovetti angle, as well as the troll followers being lured by Irovetti. Good stuff).
Hope to see you around the messageboards.
Dean; TMW
Actually, there is a very easy way to introduce impressive npcs for foreshadowing in KM - the "Visiting Celebrity" event. This one gave me something of a headache, until I realized it could serve very nicely for introducing npcs I otherwise couldn't figure out how to introduce, especially for wealthy patrons who otherwise don't fit in yet with a kingdom young in years & poor in funds. High level characters work just as well as Chelaxian opera-divas or famous poets.
Actually, there is a very easy way to introduce impressive npcs for foreshadowing in KM - the "Visiting Celebrity" event. This one gave me something of a headache, until I realized it could serve very nicely for introducing npcs I otherwise couldn't figure out how to introduce, especially for wealthy patrons who otherwise don't fit in yet with a kingdom young in years & poor in funds. High level characters work just as well as Chelaxian opera-divas or famous poets.
+1
Great idea!
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I can't speak for Erik, but my comments weren't intended as a criticism of you guys or Kingmaker. This is a feature of D&D, and by no means unique to Paizo. I realize it's one of those things that bugs me and doesn't interfere with the game 99.99% of the time,* but it's still fun to talk about the issue.
The leveling system in D&D is fun, the power curve it brings is fun, and this is just one of those side effects you learn to ignore if you don't like it.
Appreciate the tips though.
*Actually, I have a hard time imagining when it has interfered with a game, and nothing comes to mind.
I find myself agreeing with Sebastian...
*head explodes*
I'm going to skip the spoiler considering how much of this conversation has happened without one (but to warn players: I got spoiler information here!)
I'm grabbing one of the NPCs (Devon iirc... the one that brought the big dumb brute with him to the stag lord) in stolen lands and using him in place of Koth. His basic story is going to be a visit from our favorite little fey lady and a tip he should get out soon. I'm redoing his levels -- by the time he's in this book he'll be a Barbarian 2 Rogue 3 Shadowdancer 4 Duelist 6 that enjoys killing a lot. I'm hoping that him being reoccuring here will help drive home what sort of place pitax is, and help keep the players connected to what has already happened as well as giving them the feeling that while they have grown others have too.