Let's say I have a player, and this player wants his evil celestial bloodline sorcerer character to call a Hezrou demon. He then forces the Hezrou to serve him for about two weeks, grant him a wish, discard all the standard treasure it possesses, and then he banishes the Hezrou back to its home plane with nothing. He repeats the process as many times EACH DAY as he has spell slots.
How do I prevent such brokeness? Assume that the character is optimized towards keeping called creatures under control (charm monster, dimensional anchor, magic circle, huge charisma score, 40+ intimidate, etc.).
The hezrou tells other demons about this awful person and organises a war party to tear him to shreds.
Do they hate him? No! He's despicably evil! They want to drag his soul back to the abyss and make him an honorary demon! :D
The hezrou tells other demons about this awful person and organises a war party to tear him to shreds.
Do they hate him? No! He's despicably evil! They want to drag his soul back to the abyss and make him an honorary demon! :D
But with banishment and intimidate in the 40s, the demons are too scared to mess with him!
Besides, if he offers them the chance to wreak havoc on the material plane once their services have been rendered (rather than being force back) than I can't think of too many demons who would pass him up on the offer.
Should they ever turn on him, they get banished back. Simple. He may even call more than one Hezrou, if only to make an example out of one by banishing it:
"See how easily I can send you back to the slimy hole I rescued you from? You can work for me for a few weeks and then be released to wreak havoc, or you can go back to your slimy hole to rot for eternity!"
With a super high Diplomacy and Intimidate, I doubt they will NOT go with it.
Let's say I have a player, and this player wants his evil celestial bloodline sorcerer character to call a Hezrou demon. He then forces the Hezrou to serve him for about two weeks, grant him a wish, discard all the standard treasure it possesses, and then he banishes the Hezrou back to its home plane with nothing. He repeats the process as many times EACH DAY as he has spell slots.
How do I prevent such brokeness? Assume that the character is optimized towards keeping called creatures under control (charm monster, dimensional anchor, magic circle, huge charisma score, 40+ intimidate, etc.).
have I been saying Hezrou this entire time? Sorry. I meant Glabrezu.
*edited for Glabrezu*
I'll do a little nitpick, but its all in the effort of making sure you don't get the wool pulled over your eyes by a sly player later.
First, a Glabrezu has 12hd, and the limit of Greater Planar Binding is 18hd, so he could only ever get 1 via that spell at a time.
Next, regarding treasure, the spell only calls the outsider, it doesn't call their penthouse suite or their parked carrige. Unless there is a good reason for the demon to be carrying all of its personal wealth on it, then it isnt, and it can't give him what it doesn't have.
Third, make sure you brush up on your Planar Binding mechanics. Here are the important bits:
Creature gets a will save; if successful, creature does not arrive at all.
Assuming the save was failed, the creature arrives, and now has three options:
1. Break the magic circle with its SR (standard SR check).
2. Use dimensional travel (teleport, which all demons have) to leave as it pleases.
3. Break free of control with a charsima check DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + you charisma modifer.
The first order would be to simply teleport out. As such, smart summoners will have a dimensional anchor spell prepped to cast when the monster arrives. Technically, there are no rules as to whether the caster automatically gets to go first, so you could call for an initiative roll to see if he can lock the creature before it teleports away. A better way is to use Magic Circle against Evil (or Chaos) as a prepared summoning circle, which allows you to cast the dimensional anchor before you do the summoning. This also prevents using SR to break it and increases the Cha check DC by 5.
So lets assume your crafty sorceror goes to the extra trouble. He is now using up a 6th level slot for Planar Binding, a 4th for Dimensional Anchor, and a 3rd for Magic Circle against Evil. Make him track those spell expenses, he may not be able to keep up the summoning act as long before running out of slots (needing two lower level slots for each casting will quickly burn him out). Also, these are not the greatest spell choices for a sorceror to fill his precious slots with, I would almost be inclined to let him succeed within reason more, due to his "specialization" as a planar binder.
Now, on to the MOST IMPORTANT PART. I'm goin to just copy-paste from planar binding:
If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell's effect and can escape or attack you.
So lets compare against the demands you are worried about: Giving over it's treasure. If the caster is providing no compensation, the demon is just going to laugh at him. It is an unreasonable demand, and as such does not have to be obeyed. Compensation would be just that, compensation. You could potentially use a called outsider as a sort of interplanar merchant, but thats about it. A fair deal, paying for the item with gold, would net the +0 modifier to the check. A sweet deal, like paying in living sentient creatures, could potentially get you up to the +6 bonus.
As for casing wish (or any other beneficial spell) again, compensation. If the effect is renewable, that is, a spell like ability the creature will recover in a day, then you could negotiate for it without reward (+0 mod). Or you could offer gold, sacrifices, etc, for a bonus. NPC spellcasting costs would be a good place to start. A creature with, say, wish once per month (the Glabrezu), would charge a significantly more costly amount, but still cheaper than a single charge ring of wishes (no way to corrupt those souls if you don't actually make a deal). Heck, for that matter, most demons will demand some small payment even for a cantrip, but it may be nothing more than a drop of blood, or punching the next person you see in the face for no reason. Chaos and evil, carnage and mayhem.
Short Version: No way could your example sorceror get away with what you describe. He would get no loot (even if the Hezrou brought it with him, which is unlikely), and he would very likely have to pay for getting Wishes cast on him. Even with the most protection made (which will burn through 2 extra spell slots/scrolls/etc) there is still the Cha check that it can make to break free, and if you Nat 1 on your negotiation, it breaks free as well. So there is always risk. Considerable risk.
How do I prevent such brokeness?
To start with, you actually run the calling as the rules describe. See The Black Bard's post above.
How do I prevent such brokeness?To start with, you actually run the calling as the rules describe. See The Black Bard's post above.
And check the Planar Ally spells for the cost of 'reasonable' compensation for conjured allies. 100gp/HD for min/level, 500gp/HD for hours/level, 1000gp/HD for days/level. That's when you summon your diety's friendly-happy-puppy servants to do stuff for you - pretty much where you start negotiation from if you're bringing in LESS friendly creatures.
First, a Glabrezu has 12hd, and the limit of Greater Planar Binding is 18hd, so he could only ever get 1 via that spell at a time.
Isn't that enough? Even at high levels Glabrezu make good secondary combatants and servants.
Next, regarding treasure, the spell only calls the outsider, it doesn't call their penthouse suite or their parked carriage. Unless there is a good reason for the demon to be carrying all of its personal wealth on it, then it isn't, and it can't give him what it doesn't have.
Wouldn't it at least have whatever it was carrying at the time of the calling? I don't see anywhere in the spell description where it says all called creatures are naked.
Creature gets a will save; if successful, creature does not arrive at all.
Ah. I was thinking it got called regardless and the save allowed it to escape from your service. My mistake.
In any case, it matters little as the typical Glabrezu only has a +11 Will save modifier. Said planar binder has a planar binding DC of 31 at 15th-level thanks to heighten spell. The Glabrezu succeeds only on a natural 20.
Assuming the save was failed, the creature arrives, and now has three options:
1. Break the magic circle with its SR (standard SR check).
2. Use dimensional travel (teleport, which all demons have) to leave as it pleases.
3. Break free of control with a charisma check DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + you charisma modifier.
1. SR is the best thing it has going for it. It's SR 24 is pitted against the binder's 19th caster level (greater spell penetration). It has a 25% chance of escaping (but see below).
2. Anyone who is going to be doing serious binding will be using magic circles inlaid with dimensional anchors. Teleportation and similar means of escape are a non-issue.
3. With a caster level of 15 and a Charisma score of 34 making the final DC a 34, the Glabrezu automatically fails his Charisma check with his wimpy +5 modifier.
A better way is to use Magic Circle against Evil (or Chaos) as a prepared summoning circle, which allows you to cast the dimensional anchor before you do the summoning. This also prevents using SR to break it and increases the Cha check DC by 5.
I did not know that a properly prepared magic circle wholly defeats the spell resistance problem. This just got even more broken (provided you have time to do the prep work).
So lets assume your crafty sorcerer goes to the extra trouble. He is now using up a 6th level slot for Planar Binding, a 4th for Dimensional Anchor, and a 3rd for Magic Circle against Evil. Make him track those spell expenses, he may not be able to keep up the summoning act as long before running out of slots (needing two lower level slots for each casting will quickly burn him out). Also, these are not the greatest spell choices for a sorcerer to fill his precious slots with, I would almost be inclined to let him succeed within reason more, due to his "specialization" as a planar binder.
Much of what is sacrificed is replaced by some really cool benefits. Having a creature around with that kind of (continual) power that can also LOOK LIKE YOU to confuse your enemies and protect you is extremely worthwhile. A single Glabrezu is equivalent to a cohort except that you spend a few temporary spell slots once every 15 days rather than a feat. In fact, it is probably better since monster cohorts will only net you a much weaker fiend, and even then only at a much higher level.
So lets compare against the demands you are worried about: Giving over it's treasure. If the caster is providing no compensation, the demon is just going to laugh at him. It is an unreasonable demand, and as such does not have to be obeyed. Compensation would be just that, compensation. You could potentially use a called outsider as a sort of interplanar merchant, but that's about it. A fair deal, paying for the item with gold, would net the +0 modifier to the check. A sweet deal, like paying in living sentient creatures, could potentially get you up to the +6 bonus.
Depending on what it shows up with you might be right. I'm sure a demon will gladly give a few magic items in return for being set free upon the material plane. You need to remember: Most fiends don't have the ability to get to the material plane on their own. And that is absolutely one of the best places where they can tempt mortals and wreak havoc.
You are right in that it would be unfair for me to offer him nothing (which would be the case if I sent him back). However, you seem to forget that being set free upon the world is reward enough for most things (certainly 15 days of service to an upstart binder is of little consequence to an IMMORTAL fiend that could wreak havoc upon the material plane for years to come). After all, that is literally why Glabrezu exist: to tempt mortals, wreak havoc, and generally spread the cause of evil.
As for casing wish (or any other beneficial spell) again, compensation. If the effect is renewable, that is, a spell like ability the creature will recover in a day, then you could negotiate for it without reward (+0 mod). Or you could offer gold, sacrifices, etc, for a bonus. NPC spellcasting costs would be a good place to start. A creature with, say, wish once per month (the Glabrezu), would charge a significantly more costly amount, but still cheaper than a single charge ring of wishes (no way to corrupt those souls if you don't actually make a deal). Heck, for that matter, most demons will demand some small payment even for a cantrip, but it may be nothing more than a drop of blood, or punching the next person you see in the face for no reason. Chaos and evil, carnage and mayhem.
I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. Simply being set loose upon the world, to many fiends, is absolutely priceless. I personally think it would warrant a +6 modifier in favor of the binder. It won't work for every request to be sure, but it sure is a hell of an incentive! All the Glabrezu has to do is give up a renewable resource (his wish) to a mortal who is clearly tempted by evil? That's what they use the wish for anyways! To tempt mortals and wreak havoc. To be given something more in return (a vacation upon the material plane) is a bonus if anything.
In the end it is all relatively moot anyways as, short of rolling a 1 on his Charisma check, any well built sorcerer/binder will always win the opposed Charisma check.
No way could your example sorcerer get away with what you describe.
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Even with the most protection made (which will burn through 2 extra spell slots/scrolls/etc) there is still the Cha check that it can make to break free, and if you Nat 1 on your negotiation, it breaks free as well. So there is always risk. Considerable risk.
You might be right that the sorcerer won't be able to get away with ALL of those things at once, but being given everything that the fiend LITERALLY exists for (see above) is more than enough for a single wish, or his non-artifact possessions, or 15 days of servitude. Given time and multiple castings, the binder could easily get all of these things. Hell, if he comes across a particularly stubborn fiend, the bider could not only offer the fiend release onto the material plane, but also a means of contacting the binder for re-calling in the future should he be banished back to the abyss.
And escape? Why would a high level dedicated sorcerer/binder be afraid of that? Even in the worst case scenario in which an offended fiend breaks free, with spells like banishment, charm monster, and fly (Glabrezu's can't fly) and an intimidate modifier of +40, even the mighty Glabrezu is easily cowled into submission if not simply sent back to its home plane (which, as you recall, it can't return from to enact vengeance without outside help--which won't be coming as the superior demons with such abilities will likely laugh at the Glabrezu's misfortune before killing it).
In the end though, even that is highly unlikely. Simply for being set free for so small a cost, the Glabrezu and the binder will likely end up as close as one can be to a CE fiend.
...check the Planar Ally spells for the cost of 'reasonable' compensation for conjured allies. 100gp/HD for min/level, 500gp/HD for hours/level, 1000gp/HD for days/level. That's when you summon your diety's friendly-happy-puppy servants to do stuff for you - pretty much where you start negotiation from if you're bringing in LESS friendly creatures.
Though that does make a good guideline to use as a house rule, since it is from another spell it really has little to no bearing on planar binding.
But with banishment and intimidate in the 40s, the demons are too scared to mess with him!
Yeah, I'm not buying that.
INT. CASTLE IN THE ABYSS
DEMON LACKEY
Umm, boss?
BALOR LORD
What?
DEMON LACKEY
Umm, that sorcerer's doing it again. Yanked Evil Ed right off the front line.
BALOR LORD
Hmmph. Well, that's about enough of that. Don't worry, I'll take care of it. Now go fetch me some more souls to gnaw on.
DEMON LACKEY
Yes, boss.
BALOR LORD
And send in Lilly.
DEMON LACKEY
Yes, boss.
LILLY (enters)
You rang?
BALOR LORD
Yes, Lilly. Get your platoon together and hit the cubic gate. That sorcerer's done it again. Put a hurting on him for me.
LILLY
Roger that.
FADE TO BLACK
(Sometime later, a marilith, three glabrezus, and fourteen babaus show up at a most inconvient time and place to "discuss" the sorcerer's hubris.)
Mark L. Chance
Spes Magna Games
But with banishment and intimidate in the 40s, the demons are too scared to mess with him!Yeah, I'm not buying that.
INT. CASTLE IN THE ABYSS
DEMON LACKEY
Umm, boss?BALOR LORD
What?DEMON LACKEY
Umm, that sorcerer's doing it again. Yanked Evil Ed right off the front line.BALOR LORD
Hmmph. Well, that's about enough of that. Don't worry, I'll take care of it. Now go fetch me some more souls to gnaw on.DEMON LACKEY
Yes, boss.BALOR LORD
And send in Lilly.DEMON LACKEY
Yes, boss.LILLY (enters)
You rang?BALOR LORD
Yes, Lilly. Get your platoon together and hit the cubic gate. That sorcerer's done it again. Put a hurting on him for me.LILLY
Roger that.FADE TO BLACK
(Sometime later, a marilith, three glabrezus, and fourteen babaus show up at a most inconvient time and place to "discuss" the sorcerer's hubris.)
Mark L. Chance
Spes Magna Games
"He's doing it again."
That line made me laugh. By the time the sorcerer has a "history" of doing "it" he will be nearly 5 levels higher and likely rather capable of handling such a fiendish platoon.
In any case, it is likely a moot point as the sorcerer would only have to resort to such means in a worst case scenario, which as I've shown, is extremely unlikely to happen with a good build backing you up.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is really all that broken, considering the kinds of resources it would take to get "assured success." Other than that, none of the things you all have posted have really changed my stance on the issue (that a player who wants to do this can't really be stopped without GM fiat or mutual GM/player trust).
I think you're vastly overestimating the value of a high intimidate check and the value of being set loose on the prime material plane.
Intimidate lasts 1 hour at the most, can't get the target to really do more than take actions that don't endanger it, and leaves the target unfriendly in its wake. So, yeah, you may be able to get limited assistance or information, but you also get a demon who will remember that you've been bullying him.
Being set loose on the prime material plane can be pretty entertaining, sure, but what's it going to lead to? Remember that the demon may very well take revenge for what the sorcerer has requested once the service is done. If you can't protect yourself from all demonic vengeance plots, maybe binding lots of demons isn't really the thing to do since your specifically letting them loose on the prime... where he cat get at you and everything you care about. And also remember, simply intimidating the demon works for a short time and make him unfriendly. In my estimation, that means a demon you forced into service via intimidation is more likely to take revenge - which is left to the DM to devise. Personally, I like the glabrezu laying low for a month, until the wish granting recharges, and then manipulating some child into wishing for an effect that trashes the sorcerer's home.
Far better to have a decent working relationship with the demon. It wouldn't be fool-proof since demons are treacherous, but the chances of it working should certainly offset the reverse - a bad working relationship and certain demonic vengeance.
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For me historically speaking, the employment of rule 0 has been best used to clear up munchkinish, powergaming, BS like this.
Just call shenanigans, or throw and army of demons at him.
Also, Spes is right, after any more than 2-3 of these things returning to their native plane with matching stories on the issue some higher power would take notice and come have a little talk with the guy.
Your sorcerer will likely get a rep for dealing with demons. This can be used against him in a couple ways.
One, a bunch of paladins will come knocking on his door. If he's designed to conjure up demons, he might not have what it takes to deal with a platoon of paladins, especially paladins knowing they're going demon-hunting and ready to deal with annoying issues like demonic SLAs, flight, and so on.
Secondly, someone could just talk with the demons and make them a better offer.
"He's got you here for 2 weeks, doing all this running around for him, granting him wishes? Well, if you'll just grant me your wish, I'll wish for something you want, demon. Maybe unlimited access to this world? Maybe make you go home to your own schemes and plots and make his spells fail to call you for a hundred years. How's that sound?"
Or finally, someone can beat him at his own game, using more demons, or devils, or celestials, or proteans, or whatnot.
GM Fiat is enough.
Other than that, a couple points:
A: Wish - there's a decent chance a Glabrezu will simply refuse to grant a wish to a mortal - it's its most valuable "possession". Even a charmed one. It also has a +18 Sense Motive, and +22 Diplomacy.
B: Even if it does grant it, its extremely likely to pervert it. Even a wish like "I wish to be stronger" can be messed with. I wished that from a Luck Blade once, and DM screwed it into +2 Str, -2 Dex. I was mad, but wasn't messing with the game.
C: Why would he be getting a "new" Glabrezu every time? Solid chance of just getting the same one that's been "attuned" to him.
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B: Even if it does grant it, its extremely likely to pervert it. Even a wish like "I wish to be stronger" can be messed with. I wished that from a Luck Blade once, and DM screwed it into +2 Str, -2 Dex. I was mad, but wasn't messing with the game.
This here. Perfect. Wish griefing is classic. He has a way to avoid it too if he is smart but a lazy wish could just as likely cripple him as it could help him in the hands of a demon.
This here. Perfect. Wish griefing is classic.
Not if the wish complies with the text of the spell. For example, "I wish I was more charismatic" to gain a +1 inherent bonus to Charisma is perfectly in line with what wish is intended to do. Griefing in this case is really just screwing with a player for the sake of being difficult. That's bad form.
Mark L. Chance
Spes Magna Games
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This here. Perfect. Wish griefing is classic.Not if the wish complies with the text of the spell. For example, "I wish I was more charismatic" to gain a +1 inherent bonus to Charisma is perfectly in line with what wish is intended to do. Griefing in this case is really just screwing with a player for the sake of being difficult. That's bad form.
If the player is casting the spell or using a luck blade then you are right, they should just get whatever bonus the spell suggests and move on. If it's another creature that is casting the spell, and in particular an evil creature under duress, then it's entirely appropriate that the creature would twist the players words as much as possible.
I tend to agree with the OP on one of his points: being called, asked to fork over its one wish for the month then set free upon the world at large is going to be gravy for the Glabrezu. It lays low for at least a month - probably much longer - as it sets about exploring the world.
I offer two counterpoints:
- The glabrezu would NOT give up its gear for this chance to prowl the campaign world unhindered. Ask him, GM to player, if his character would give up all of his adventuring gear to go have a good, free time for a year in a brothel. Odds are, the character so driven to call and bind fiends to his will is going to answer no.
- The glabrezu will earn at least as much, if not considerably MORE, xp than his character will over the same amount of game time. Thus it can gain HD, templates, and class levels. I suggest a combination of the advanced simple template and gaining "PC" class levels - with the attendant ability score array 'bump' from doing so - be applied. Your "wuss" glabrezu demon suddenly gained 8 points of CHA at least ...
Glabrezu can summon other demons with varying reliability - notably, 1 or 2 vrocks at a time. Every glabrezu called knows this character's true appearance , at least some element of the character's name and has a very respectable array of spell-like abilities - the two most important of which are arguably veil (personal only) and greater teleport at will. The are telepathic to more than 30 yards, able to communicate with virtually every other creature in existence that is intelligent. They can easily blend into the background of what ever societies they encounter thanks to their 'standard' skills sets as written.
At a base CR of 13 and having the "combat" role - combined with their general choice of victims to lure into false promises of immortality, restored loved ones ad nauseam - a Glabrezu will not waste its time gaining levels of barbarian, fighter or ranger. It is most likely to become a sorcerer (arcane or destined bloodlines are my suggestion). This gives the one critter a base ability score array - assuming we allocate the class array as -2 Str, +0 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis and +4 Cha in addition to the Advanced Simple template (base CR 14 as a result) - for a shiny new CR 14 demon with 33 Str, 17 Dex, 41 Con, 22 Int, 22 Wis, 28 Cha - and if you insist on using averaged hit points per hit die, 282 hit points. Oh, and a "nekkid" natural armor bonus of +22, a nice side benefit. Theoretically, you can add 14 levels of sorcerer for a final CR of 21. I rather doubt that its actual CR will be a 21 - more likely a 16 since its arcane caster level equals its spell-like abilities' caster level, maybe a CR 17. 42 extra skill ranks goes a long way to filling in the ones missing from its stat block - and gives at least 1 - probably 2, maybe even 3 - additional skills at 10 - 12 ranks each. This does not count that its 14 sorcerer levels tacked on another 14 ranks to a bunch of skills - most importantly Spellcraft and Use Magic Device - for a total of 26 ranks in each skill. Yes, that means it has a Use Magic Device bonus of +38 without any additional feats <26 ranks +3 trained +9 Cha>.
Mind, the glabrezu gains 3 more ability score points (from its first 12 sorcerer levels), so let's just do the crazy thing and jam them into CHA, for a new total of 31 (UMD +39).
Now, you have a critter that can pull the very same trick as your player's character. Only he doesn't do it with other demons - he does it with noble djinn and a modest chunk of its gear allowance. More than likely, he does this by way of a stack of scrolls of call planar ally it duped some sucker(s) into having scribed for it, then riffs them of in a series to call up a stack of noble djinni to grant itself 30 wishes - and an attendant stack of +5 inherent bonuses to all of its ability scores, placing our sample glabrezu at an ability score array of 38 Str, 22 Dex, 46 Con, 27 Int, 27 Wis, 36 Cha (UMD +43) - without ANY gear. It is a fair bet that the demon has a shiny +6 headband of alluring charisma on, bumping that CHA even further to a nice juicy total of 42 (+16 bonus = UMD check of +46). So, it can't fail to use the scrolls successfully, and unlike the character he doesn't need to do anything but pay the djinn a modest "one time" fee of 1k gp per wish.
So, now the first glabrezu the character called up is now a CR 16 or so BBEG with +22 natural armor, 14th level sorcerer stuff, its original 14th level spell-like abilities, a NASTY ability score array ... and a grudge to go with it. It remembers very clearly the mortal scum who bade him do some bidding not all that long ago ... and it wants that character's soul pretty badly ...
Peg this fellow as a CR 18 - giving him Sorcerer 16th and thus an 8th level spell - and you have a real "BBEG" to toss at your group when they are 15th level. He can grab the paladin's holy avenger in one hand and chop the rest of the party up with it without the least difficulty. Use Magic Device is a beautiful thing, isn't it ? And the odds are ... there are quite a few demons around, just like him ...
12d10 racial hit dice, 14d6 class hit dice and a 46 CON (+18 bonus) results - on averaged hit points per hit die - results in a bad guy with 585 hit points. (66 + 51.5, rounded down + 468) Sounds like a legitimate challenge to me. If you maximize its hit points, that jumps to 672 hit points. 16th level sorcerer improves average hit points to 628, maximized to 720 hit points.
... "I wish to be stronger" can be messed with.
Ok, you now have persistent underarm stink in a 5' radius! *wink*
Sorry, could not resist.
The only problem I am seeing it letting him get away with too much bribery too easily. Intimidation just makes it 1 more step more friendly towards you. Considering a Demon is going to be summoned around the friendliness level of "Colombian necktie," just intimidating it is not going to make it fork over everything and be your willing slave for nothing. And especially not for a simple promise of being set loose on the plane, that would take an extra bluff check unless he actually does it. At which point, serious stuff is likely to go down as a result - somewhere between "Glabrezu eating Sorcerer" and "Paladin smiting Sorcerer."
Why screw over your player like all the DMs with a god complex suggest when you can just follow the rules?
GM Fiat is enough.
I doubt I could disagree more. GM fiat is largely something to be avoided.
Other than that, a couple points:
A: Wish - there's a decent chance a Glabrezu will simply refuse to grant a wish to a mortal - it's its most valuable "possession". Even a charmed one. It also has a +18 Sense Motive, and +22 Diplomacy.
The only time I can see the Glabrezu refusing, is if the wish doesn't tempt a mortal, further evil in general, or cause lots of mayhem among mortals. The only other reason would be "he's already used it."
B: Even if it does grant it, its extremely likely to pervert it. Even a wish like "I wish to be stronger" can be messed with. I wished that from a Luck Blade once, and DM screwed it into +2 Str, -2 Dex. I was mad, but wasn't messing with the game.
Have you even read the Glabrezu description? They generally pervert it to wreak havoc in general. If you read the perverted wish examples in the creature description, very few of them actually screw over the wisher directly. Most of them actually hurt others.
I would kick a GM in the nads if I asked for something as simple as a + Strength and he zapped another ability score.
C: Why would he be getting a "new" Glabrezu every time? Solid chance of just getting the same one that's been "attuned" to him.
Now you are just making stuff up. No where does it say anythign about attuning. In fact, the option of calling a specific being by name kind of implies that a random creature of a kind will appear. If I call a single Glabrazu out of the unlimited amount that undoubtedly exist in the infinite abyss, what do you think the odds are that it's one I've called before? Let's say I do get one that remembers me (or heck, has even heard of me). If I get along with most Glabrezu, then he might be MORE willing to work with me.
The glabrezu would NOT give up its gear for this chance to prowl the campaign world unhindered. Ask him, GM to player, if his character would give up all of his adventuring gear to go have a good, free time for a year in a brothel. Odds are, the character so driven to call and bind fiends to his will is going to answer no.
Of course the player would say no (more often than not). You asked the wrong question.
Ask the character (not the player) the right question: In exchange for all of your magical gear, would you like to spend the rest of your life in retirement at [chosen paradise]?
Remember, there is no time limit for the Glabrazu. He gets to wreak havoc until something either kills him or sends him back to the abyss.
You were offering a player far less than what was being offered the Glabrazu and then trying to use it as a counterpoint.
The glabrezu will earn at least as much, if not considerably MORE, xp than his character will over the same amount of game time.
I respectfully disagree. This can only through unfair GM fiat. Though I can see a Glabrazu (or any fiend for that matter) becoming more powerful through his experiences on the material plane, adventurers level up faster than ANYONE. If the Glabrazu gained more levels than my character gained in the same amount of time (much less "considerably MORE") than I would kick my GM in the nads (figuratively speaking of course).
Your sorcerer will likely get a rep for dealing with demons. This can be used against him in a couple ways.
One, a bunch of paladins will come knocking on his door. If he's designed to conjure up demons, he might not have what it takes to deal with a platoon of paladins, especially paladins knowing they're going demon-hunting and ready to deal with annoying issues like demonic SLAs, flight, and so on.
Sending paladins and similar pissed off individuals after the sorcerer for calling powerful fiends and releasing them into the world?
THAT IS BY FAR THE BEST AND MOST SENSIBLE IDEA I'VE HEARD YET.
It makes sense in context of most campaigns, doesn't unduly screw the player over, and doesn't break any rules.
Also, being a celestial bloodline sorcerer, the character is unlikely to roll a natural 1 since she can reroll an ability check once per day.
What are the chances of getting a natural 1 twice in a row again? :P
Just because a bad guy that you brought into the world shows up later bad ass enough to take on you and your friends does NOT mean you are entitled to kick your GM in the junk. You set the demon loose - that demon can certainly show up at a later point. Say, if you stumble into its mechanations, or he stumbles into yours. Or if you call him up again on purpose, overconfident that you can boss him around again.
Adventuring DEMONS earn XP at least as fast as adventuring mortal pond scum. They have less morals, don't drink, eat and sleep and are far harder to get rid of. Besides ... who says that the demon shows up while the demon-caller is still young? It could - and probably would - be decades of game time. If the campaign is still in play that much later, the demon could crop up as a BBEG for the character's descendants.
It is more likely that clerics, paladins and other Dudley Do-Rights show up and stomp on the demon-caller - the first few times most likely by back tracking the very demons that are set loose (solving the problem of the XP gaining demons).
Good luck persuading the Dudley Do-Rights not to exterminate the character ... especially if the demon caller goes back on any terms of continued ability to exist as anything other than statuary ...
The Bestiary says "A wish granted
by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher’s need in the most
destructive way possible—although such methods might
not be immediately apparent."
Note the use of the word always. NOT always unless made friendly or afraid for it's life or in exchange for something it want or unless the wish asked for is within the guidelines of the wish spell. That's RAW. NO GM Fiat so you can sleep easy at night lol.
I don't think the demon can help not twisting the spell even if it was helpful towards your character. It's just not in it's chaotic evil nature.
Note: These treacherous demons form from the souls
of the treasonous, the false, and the subversive—souls of
mortals who, in life, bore false witness or used treachery
and deceit to ruin the lives of others.
So yeah you totally reason with these things and expect them to uphold their bargains because they're so afraid of you. Can you see my eyes rolling?
And if your player is "wording the wish in such a way it can't be twisted" which is really not possible then the wish should simply fail despite the glabrezu's best efforts. The Glabrezu's wish is supposed to represent it's supernatural ability to tempt the wisher with whatever it desires. Not it's mad magical skillz.
I would also seriously question the idea that the material plane is "paradise" for an outsider. I like buffets but I'm not going to call Fresh Choice nirvana but I'm not familiar with Golarion so can't really comment. In other settings, like Eberron, Outsiders from other planes (as opposed to native outsiders) generally don't want to be here.
Just because a bad guy that you brought into the world shows up later bad ass enough to take on you and your friends does NOT mean you are entitled to kick your GM in the junk. You set the demon loose - that demon can certainly show up at a later point. Say, if you stumble into its mechanations, or he stumbles into yours. Or if you call him up again on purpose, overconfident that you can boss him around again.
I fully agree with the above.
Adventuring DEMONS earn XP at least as fast as adventuring mortal pond scum. They have less morals, don't drink, eat and sleep and are far harder to get rid of. Besides ... who says that the demon shows up while the demon-caller is still young? It could - and probably would - be decades of game time. If the campaign is still in play that much later, the demon could crop up as a BBEG for the character's descendants.
Short of the PCs taking a LOT of downtime, I still don't believe the fiend could level up FASTER than the PCs. Adventurers level up faster than ANYONE else.
Having the fiend attempt to get revenge against the binder when he is an old man and unable to effectively defend himself DOES make sense to me however. Ruining the lives of descendants also works for me. Those events make sense in context of what's going on and don't unduly screw over the player just because of the GM's wounded pride.
It is more likely that clerics, paladins and other Dudley Do-Rights show up and stomp on the demon-caller - the first few times most likely by back tracking the very demons that are set loose (solving the problem of the XP gaining demons).
Good luck persuading the Dudley Do-Rights not to exterminate the character ... especially if the demon caller goes back on any terms of continued ability to exist as anything other than statuary ...
Bringing in goodly adversaries is another sensible solution.
The Bestiary says "A wish granted
by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher’s need in the most
destructive way possible—although such methods might
not be immediately apparent."
Note the use of the word always. NOT always unless made friendly or afraid for it's life or in exchange for something it want or unless the wish asked for is within the guidelines of the wish spell. That's RAW. NO GM Fiat so you can sleep easy at night lol.
You just proved me right. It specifically says that "it ALWAYS fulfills the wisher's need." You and others keep taking the "most destructive way possible" out of context. If you actually read and quote the wish examples right after your quoted text, then you would see that the wishes actually do what they are meant to do:
A wish granted by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher's need in the most destructive way possible—although such methods might not be immediately apparent. A struggling weaponsmith might wish for fame and skill at his craft, only to find that his best patron is a cruel and sadistic murderer who uses the weapons to further his destructive desires. A lonely man who wishes for a companion might have his wish granted in the form of a lost love returned to “life” as a vampire, and so on—the glabrezu is nothing if not creative in addressing a mortal's desires.
In both cases, the wishers get exactly what they want. If the strugglin weaponsmith is indifferent to who uses his weapons and on whom, then he got exactly what he asked for. If the lonely man gets turned into a vampire and he and his love can spend eternity together, he actually likely got more than what he wished for.
Notice how the wishes don't screw the wisher so much as cause "the most destruction possible."
I don't think the demon can help not twisting the spell even if it was helpful towards your character. It's just not in it's chaotic evil nature.
I am inclined to agree. However, it might grant a wish EXACTLY as desired by the wisher if doing so would cause the most destruction.
So yeah you totally reason with these things and expect them to uphold their bargains because they're so afraid of you. Can you see my eyes rolling?
They don't have a choice in the matter. The rules are absolutely clear. If I make my intimidate check, or if they fail their Charisma check, they are my lap dogs...if only for a short time. They have effectively been pressed into service.
And if your player is "wording the wish in such a way it can't be twisted" which is really not possible then the wish should simply fail despite the glabrezu's best efforts. The Glabrezu's wish is supposed to represent it's supernatural ability to tempt the wisher with whatever it desires. Not it's mad magical skillz.
I agree.
I would also seriously question the idea that the material plane is "paradise" for an outsider. I like buffets but I'm not going to call Fresh Choice nirvana but I'm not familiar with Golarion so can't really comment. In other settings, like Eberron, Outsiders from other planes (as opposed to native outsiders) generally don't want to be here.
I'll agree insofar that it may vary from campaign to campaign. For standard D&D/Pathfinder cosmology, however, the Monster Manual/Bestiary make it pretty clear that the fiends live to cause trouble for mortals on the Material Plane.
The only time I can see the Glabrezu refusing, is if the wish doesn't tempt a mortal, further evil in general, or cause lots of mayhem among mortals. The only other reason would be "he's already used it."
Which is an excellent point. Glabrezu LIVE to use their wish magic to make mortal lives miserable...so there's a good chance he's already used it for the month. Maybe if you let him 'hang around' as an 'advisor' for a few weeks he'll recharge and use it to 'benefit' you. Yeah, that's the ticket...
You just proved me right. It specifically says that "it ALWAYS fulfills the wisher's need." You and others keep taking the "most destructive way possible" out of context. If you actually read and quote the wish examples right after your quoted text, then you would see that the wishes actually do what they are meant to do:
No you're just trying to interpret it a way it clearly was not written. I left off the part that came after because those were EXAMPLES. As in how it could work not the way it always does. Notice the word MIGHT.
I went with the definitive. Yeah the PC will get what they wanted but the cost is always higher than what they wanted to pay so only an idiot would try to use a Glabrezu's wish even if they were EEEEEEEVIL. The cost should always be too high.You are the one attempting to take it hilariously out of context. To paraphrase "Yeah the Glabrezu will twist my wish to cause as much harm as possible. But surely he'll do it in such a way the wisher won't come to any real harm. See in these two specific examples regarding other charcters MY PC wouldn't really care" Disregarding the fact that the Glabrezu will tailor the destruction of the wish to fit the wisher. As if the Glabrezu has to choose between hurting others OR the PC. He'll happily and easily do BOTH.
A wish granted by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher's need in the most destructive way possible—although such methods might not be immediately apparent. A struggling weaponsmith might wish for fame and skill at his craft, only to find that his best patron is a cruel and sadistic murderer who uses the weapons to further his destructive desires. A lonely man who wishes for a companion might have his wish granted in the form of a lost love returned to “life” as a vampire, and so on—the glabrezu is nothing if not creative in addressing a mortal's desires.
Nowhere there does it say a wish is always granted. It says a wish is always granted IN the most destructive way possible. The idea that this sentence states a wish is always granted is fallacious. All one can logically interpret it to say is that in the case a wish is granted it will be twisted for maximum destruction.
In both cases, the wishers get exactly what they want. If the strugglin weaponsmith is indifferent to who uses his weapons and on whom, then he got exactly what he asked for. If the lonely man gets turned into a vampire and he and his love can spend eternity together, he actually likely got more than what he wished for.
Notice how the wishes don't screw the wisher so much as cause "the most destruction possible."
Excuse me while I slam my head against this wall because I think you are serious.
You actually think a wish doing the most destruction possible will ever spare the wisher? That a Glabrezu is just a chump? If the blacksmith doesn't care who uses his weapons that won't be the part that hurts him. That part that hurts him is when some robber or assassin kills him with one of his own weapons because they got sold to ANYbody. Oh your PC is a vampire now? Great hand me your character sheet since I never gave anyone permission to play undead in my campaign.
This isn't fiat it's just common sense. You started off by asking how can a GM reasonably stop abuse of calling Glabrezu's but rather than accept the most reasonable explanations you turn around to defend what would be a hilariously amateur attempt at munchkinin.
Be honest. You're trying to get a GM to accept one of your PCs doing this. No GM is this dense. Only a desperate player is.
I am inclined to agree. However, it might grant a wish EXACTLY as desired by the wisher if doing so would cause the most destruction.
And again such a GM fails at imagination 101. It's not an either/or situation. The Glabrezu can do both.
In a purely theoretical situation ANYthing is possible. In the real world it's not going to happen. The Demon wants to bring mortals into sin while ultimately giving nothing in return that doesn't result in it's delight. If the wisher gained what they really wanted from a wish that's a truly patheticly run demon whose sole existence is treachery.
They don't have a choice in the matter.
That was my idea. That it's perfectly reasonable that a Glabrezu simply CAN'T grant a wish it can't twist.
The rules are absolutely clear.
Then go away. Seriously why are you asking if it's SOOOOO clear? I guess if a player tried to do this the Gm is just totally helpless outside fiat.
If I make my intimidate check, or if they fail their Charisma check, they are my lap dogs...if only for a short time. They have effectively been pressed into service.
So much for the rules being expressly clear. I guess you didn't actually read planar binding.
Nowhere does it say anything close to the creature becoming your lap dog. Pure wishful thinking.First off in regards to commands it says this. "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." Yeah what a lap dog. Some commands it can directly look at you and just flatly say no. What constitutes an unreasonable demand or an impossible demand is left up to the GM. Whatever they decide is not fiat. The spell clearly leaves that up to GM interpretation no matter what that may be. Don't even try to argue the PC should decide what's unreasonable.
In regards to failing it's Charisma Check it says you compel them to perform one service. Compel does not equal quivering lap dog. It means you convinced them to do ONE thing for you provided it was not unreasonable. Finally the spell text specifically says the creature may seek revenge. I'm guessing the MAY part is if the creature is ultimately unhappy with the way things turned out. I'm really failing to see the whole "lapdog" aspect.
Read Cartigan's post for a reminder on how Intimidate actually works according to RAW. It does not reduce demons to quivering balls of fear just because it's real high.
I agree.
Then your question is answered and munchkin abuse has been reasonably prevented. No point to any further asinine arguments.
I'll agree insofar that it may vary from campaign to campaign. For standard D&D/Pathfinder cosmology, however, the Monster Manual/Bestiary make it pretty clear that the fiends live to cause trouble for mortals on the Material Plane.
Yet you constantly argue that a string of Glabrezu happily/powerlessly fulfills a mortal PCs wishes endlessly at no real cost to the PC.
Someone may really LOVE their work. Doesn't mean they never want to go home. Otherwise the planes would be empty.
What do you think COMPEL means?
If they fail the Charisma check, then they do the requested service. The spell forces them into it just as a magical compulsion would. The only thing that can stop it at that point is, as you said, the GM deciding that it is too much (but if that is the case, you would never even get to the Charisma check).
Also, I never said a wish is always granted. I said the wisher always gets what was asked for once the wish is agreed to (which is fine, since odds are, he's not getting it in the way he intended).
Most of the rest of your post is a highly negative rant, so I am not even going to bother responding to your other points.
What do you think COMPEL means?
1 : to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly <hunger compelled him to eat>
2 : to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure <public opinion compelled her to sign the bill>3 archaic : to drive together
None of those makes someone your "lap dog." You got them to do one thing for you. Wow. The demon licks at your bootheels and pleads for mercy. Eyeroll here. It will surely never seek revenge with a host of fellow glabrezu because you have the all mighty banishment spell which forces them to... go home. And you can cast that like 6 times per day so they're just helpless against you. How could any reasonably intelligent creature with a 16 int ever figure out a way to get vengeance on you?
Also you declaring the compulsion is magical is not stated anywhere in the spell so as you frequently do you read something that is not stated anywhere and decide it to be fact. Compel =/= compulsion. IE the creature is going to look for anyway it can to do the bare minimum of what you've CONVINCED it to do.
My argument there was not that the demon didn't/wouln't do it once you made the check but calling it your lap dog is a gross mischaracterization. Something I notice is very common with you.
My post may have been highly negative but it was also correct so I'm not surprised you'd fail to respond. The important part is that with what you're trying to do you should never even make it to the Charisma check. How stupid would a GM have to be to consider asking the treachery demon "I'll release you if you use your greatest power on me in such a way that does not ultimately betray/hurt me. It's not like treachery is in your very nature or anything right?" as a reasonable offer.
None of those makes someone your "lap dog." You got them to do one thing for you.
You're right about that. The spell description is clear on the matter. And perhaps "lap dog" was the wrong choice of words. It sure seems to drive you up the wall for some reason.
Still, it doesn't change that, that "one thing" could be "be my bodyguard for the next 15 days" or "assist me in destroying all my enemies in yonder castle" or "track down the wizard who scarred me with fireball and make him suffer tenfold what I did."
These are all perfectly reasonable things to request. There is literally nothing you can't ask for (though you likely won't get it if you ask for too much).
I imagine calling spells in your games are either worthless due to the limitations you put on them, or they are so costly to use as to make most any other method preferable. If that is the case, than it's a shame. They add a lot of fun and flavor to the game.
In any case, we obviously don't see eye to eye on a number of issues. It's just a difference of play styles I guess. Nevertheless, that is not a good reason to get so up in arms over the whole affair. Take the night off, calm down a bit, and if you want to continue discussing it tomorrow than we can. Just dial it down a notch.
Let's say I have a player, and this player wants his evil celestial bloodline sorcerer character to call a Hezrou demon. He then forces the Hezrou to serve him for about two weeks, grant him a wish, discard all the standard treasure it possesses, and then he banishes the Hezrou back to its home plane with nothing. He repeats the process as many times EACH DAY as he has spell slots.
How do I prevent such brokeness? Assume that the character is optimized towards keeping called creatures under control (charm monster, dimensional anchor, magic circle, huge charisma score, 40+ intimidate, etc.).
Calling a demon does not mean it has to do whatever you say. By the rules of the planar ally spells you have to make an agreement with it.
If it had a master it would tell it's master its wish got used. At that point you have taken a tool that could be used to get someone to sign their soul over. Souls are valuable. As far as the demon's master is concerned you owe him for that soul. The PC in question should expect visitors, but as a DM I would allow a knowledge(planes) along with wisdom check to figure out possible consequences before hand.edit:edited for misreading of the rules
Calling a demon does not mean it has to do whatever you say. By the rules of the planar ally spells you have to make an agreement with it.
That's exactly right--and that is what the Charisma check represents. Get past that then the agreement is made. The nature of the service and the offered rewards can make this check easier (granting as much as a +6 bonus). A GM would be perfectly justified in saying that "freedom isn't enough" or that "the fiend doesn't trust you to live up to your word" and assign a +0 modifier to the check. That doesn't mean I can't still talk him into it should I succeed on the check.
I imagine the autofail requests you brought up earlier to be things like suicide missions or things that obviously and wholly support the cause of good.
EDIT: Looking back on the spell description, it seems I was getting the creature's Charisma check to escape the trap and the opposed Charisma checks to make a good deal confused with one another. Please disregard previous statements in which I claimed "opposed Charisma checks are auto-fail for the fiend." It seems that is most definitely not the case.
Glabrazu's +5 VS focused binder's +12.
good stuff
You are awesome and scary all at once. I almost glad you are not at my table.
You're right about that. The spell description is clear on the matter. And perhaps "lap dog" was the wrong choice of words. It sure seems to drive you up the wall for some reason.
Not perhaps.
No I'm not up the wall.
Still, it doesn't change that, that "one thing" could be "be my bodyguard for the next 15 days" or "assist me in destroying all my enemies in yonder castle" or "track down the wizard who scarred me with fireball and make him suffer tenfold what I did."
But you're demands are actually better worded than that right? Remember compel is not compulsion. The demon is going to perform the service it promised but it's going to do the bare minimum and a glabrezu is especially going to try and work in some treachery. How does the demon define being your bodyguard? What if it for example demands an hour break once a day whenever it wants? What if the demon decides to be very pro active in bodyguarding you and just kill everybody?
These are all perfectly reasonable things to request. There is literally nothing you can't ask for (though you likely won't get it if you ask for too much).
According to you maybe. I wouldn't consider 15 days of protecting someone I hate 24/7 from enemies that might end up killing me to be some sort of super awesome (PERFECTLY reasonable being as usual a rather gross mischaracterization. It MAY be reasonable to certain creatures) deal I just have to jump at because in return he'll let me loose on the material plane. The Glabrezu doesn't live for combat. If you want a protector summon a creature that likes protecting things. If you want someone that loves the idea of wading into a castle full of enemies and slaughtering stuff summon a creature that loves to fight. Glabrezu's love to screw over mortals through temptation.
I also don't see how any of those requests involve the Glabrezu using its wish ability. Have you already forgotten your original question or are you just trying to "win" the argument?
It's not LIKELY you won't get it if you ask for too much. The spell says you will NOT get it. Obviously "too much" falls under unreasonable.
I imagine calling spells in your games are either worthless due to the limitations you put on them, or they are so costly to use as to make most any other method preferable. If that is the case, than it's a shame. They add a lot of fun and flavor to the game.
No I love summoning spells of all kinds I just strive for verisimilitude. Calling spells are dangerous and are to be used out of necessity not whimsy. They also have to be used intelligently. You call the right creature for the task and have an actual bargaining chip. (I play in Eberron where even good outsiders prefer to be back home) Summoning a glabrezu, rolling your super optimisedintimidate check and declaring the demon to now be your lapdog that HAS to grant you a wish that won't at all hurt your character isn't going to cut it. That's what a lazy stupid spellcaster does that dies. They teach you how to do it correctly in wizardry academies.
You get what you ask for. And trying to get a loyal hireling out of a demon formed from souls literally defined by treachery is one of the dumbest most unrealistic ideas I've ever heard.
If a PC tried I would cackle with glee for a full minute before I could compose myself and say are you sure?
In any case, we obviously don't see eye to eye on a number of issues. It's just a difference of play styles I guess. Nevertheless, that is not a good reason to get so up in arms over the whole affair. Take the night off, calm down a bit, and if you want to continue discussing it tomorrow than we can. Just dial it down a notch.
Don't worry yourself. I've never gotten worked up about anything on a forum and I didn't start now. That's just my acerbic personality. I thought you of all people would understand.
(Is it the caps? I'm not yelling just attempting to get an emphasis across without tone to do it)
But you're demands are actually better worded than that right? Remember compel is not compulsion. The demon is going to perform the service it promised but it's going to do the bare minimum and a glabrezu is especially going to try and work in some treachery. How does the demon define being your bodyguard? What if it for example demands an hour break once a day whenever it wants? What if the demon decides to be very pro active in bodyguarding you and just kill everybody?
Of course they won't be worded like that. A guy with a 34 Charisma is going to say exactly what he wants. Since I'm a normal guy I will never be able to say it quite as well as the character, and it's not expected of me. So long as I can clearly convey to the GM what I want, the rest is represented by the Charisma check et al.
Also, your comment about the fiend up and killing everybody as his interpretation made me crack up laughing. I would totally see that as being a fair way of playing out the fiend's manipulation of the job description.
The Glabrezu doesn't live for combat. If you want a protector summon a creature that likes protecting things. If you want someone that loves the idea of wading into a castle full of enemies and slaughtering stuff summon a creature that loves to fight. Glabrezu's love to screw over mortals through temptation.
Don't all fiends love to kill and wreak havoc? Sure some are predisposed towards doing it in certain fashions, but that doesn't change the fact that they are CE fiends out for blood.
Also, I originally chose the Glabrazu because it was the only fiend I found to have a good selection of useful abilities AND have 12 HD.
I also don't see how any of those requests involve the Glabrezu using its wish ability. Have you already forgotten your original question
The wish wasn't my original question, merely a part of it. It was used simply as an example of a possible request to show how broken the spell could potentially be. Nothing more nothing less.
If you check some of my earliest posts in this thread, I came to the conclusion that getting the wish AND getting the 15 day bodyguard AND all the Glabrezu's standard treasure was too much considering I'm only offering freedom. After that I started talking about the requests individually, if I talked about them at all (since they themselves aren't the focus of this thread anyways).
I'm off to bed now. I have to wake up good and early tomorrow to celebrate my 26th birthday. We can talk about this more later if you'd like.
Calling a demon does not mean it has to do whatever you say. By the rules of the planar ally spells you have to make an agreement with it.That's exactly right--and that is what the Charisma check represents. Get past that then the agreement is made. The nature of the service and the offered rewards can make this check easier (granting as much as a +6 bonus). A GM would be perfectly justified in saying that "freedom isn't enough" or that "the fiend doesn't trust you to live up to your word" and assign a +0 modifier to the check. That doesn't mean I can't still talk him into it should I succeed on the check.
I imagine the autofail requests you brought up earlier to be things like suicide missions or things that obviously and wholly support the cause of good.
EDIT: Looking back on the spell description, it seems I was getting the creature's Charisma check to escape the trap and the opposed Charisma checks to make a good deal confused with one another. Please disregard previous statements in which I claimed "opposed Charisma checks are auto-fail for the fiend." It seems that is most definitely not the case.
Glabrazu's +5 VS focused binder's +12.
Demons are really smart. I would really suggest not messing with them. If you asked for a +6 strength I would change you into an animal had a +6 strength compared to your previous strength. At least devils keep their promises(to an extent). That does not mean they won't try to use it against you later, but you do have a chance as long as you try to deal with them fairly.
PS: Adventuring is just an occupation. There is nothing stopping a demon from adventuring to gain levels. If I were a demon I would definitely make sure no mortal could boss me around again. After I felt confident I might pay him a visit.
PS2: I got it mixed up too, at first.
Of course they won't be worded like that. A guy with a 34 Charisma is going to say exactly what he wants. Since I'm a normal guy I will never be able to say it quite as well as the character, and it's not expected of me. So long as I can clearly convey to the GM what I want, the rest is represented by the Charisma check et al.
Wow that's extremely generous. I had no idea charisma got to double for intelligence. And 34 that's extremely specific.... Sure this is not for your character...?
Charisma just makes your arguments convincing not smart. I'd say the demon finds your argument so enticing because you worded it poorly and it sees an opportunity to have fun.
Don't all fiends love to kill and wreak havoc?
To an extent but open combat is not every demons raison d'etre. And FAIR combat is definitely not to most of their liking. If a powerful sorceror needs a demonic bodyguard even a low int character can surmise they've got powerful enemies. If I was a demon and you just wanted to send me on a rampage against some tiny village all right kewl. A few minutes of my time is more than fair. 15 days where I may have to fight the people that scare YOU? No matter how you word it I'm not an idiot. (Not with 16 int. Out of curiousity how high is this sorcerors Int? Is the Glabrezu smarter?) The Glabrezu is clearly written to not spend it's time going around killing people. It goes around tempting people and ruining their lives or at best using your wish to ruin other people's lives. Killing is for the lesser demons that lack true skill.
Sure some are predisposed towards doing it in certain fashions, but that doesn't change the fact that they are CE fiends out for blood.
Where does the Glabrezu write up mention killing?
Also, I originally chose the Glabrazu because it was the only fiend I found to have a good selection of useful abilities AND have 12 HD.
There are useful monsters with less HD. Maybe the new Bestiary will fix this ... issue?
The wish wasn't my original question, merely a part of it. It was used simply as an example of a possible request to show how broken the spell could...
Very well I have not read every comment. I was only commenting on the OP.
The spell is only broken if a GM is terrible and allows simplistic negotiations with beings alien to any mortal and for charisma to double as intelligence when working out a service contract.
Of course they won't be worded like that. A guy with a 34 Charisma is going to say exactly what he wants. Since I'm a normal guy I will never be able to say it quite as well as the character, and it's not expected of me. So long as I can clearly convey to the GM what I want, the rest is represented by the Charisma check et al.Wow that's extremely generous. I had no idea charisma got to double for intelligence. And 34 that's extremely specific.... Sure this is not for your character...?
Charisma just makes your arguments convincing not smart. I'd say the demon finds your argument so enticing because you worded it poorly and it sees an opportunity to have fun.
Don't all fiends love to kill and wreak havoc?To an extent but open combat is not every demons raison d'etre. And FAIR combat is definitely not to most of their liking. If a powerful sorceror needs a demonic bodyguard even a low int character can surmise they've got powerful enemies. If I was a demon and you just wanted to send me on a rampage against some tiny village all right kewl. A few minutes of my time is more than fair. 15 days where I may have to fight the people that scare YOU? No matter how you word it I'm not an idiot. (Not with 16 int. Out of curiousity how high is this sorcerors Int? Is the Glabrezu smarter?) The Glabrezu is clearly written to not spend it's time going around killing people. It goes around tempting people and ruining their lives or at best using your wish to ruin other people's lives. Killing is for the lesser demons that lack true skill.
Sure some are predisposed towards doing it in certain fashions, but that doesn't change the fact that they are CE fiends out for blood.Where does the Glabrezu write up mention killing?
Also, I originally chose the Glabrazu because it was the only fiend I found to have a good selection of useful abilities AND have 12 HD.There are useful monsters with less HD. Maybe the new Bestiary will fix this ......
+1, especially on charisma not equaling intelligence.
Charisma has nothing to do with being able to word things so people can't take advantage of you. It just makes people more likely to do things for you, and there is not enough charisma to make a demon be nice to you.Charisma gets people give you an agreement--> Sure I will give you eternal life or other random thing you will pay dearly for.
Wisdom or intelligence depending on the DM, allows you to notice the fine print--> <in small letters> You must kill 50 good aligned people or your soul belongs to me. </in small letters>
Also, being a celestial bloodline sorcerer
It is more likely that clerics, paladins and other Dudley Do-Rights show up
So it turns out that Grandpa is a Solar, and guess what, he's pissed at the whipper-snapper and looking to hand out tough love.
You seem to be TRYING to interpret and stretch all of the RAW to the furthest extent possible to favor the player in this situation and I am getting this picture that this is one of those "I have a friend who has erectile dysfunction... and he wants to know what can be done" situations.
just sayin'
+1. Tends to be common in your threads.
+1. Tends to be common in your threads.You seem to be TRYING to interpret and stretch all of the RAW to the furthest extent possible to favor the player in this situation...
And that's deliberate. I was given a unique official title, "The Rules Lawyer From Hell" on other forums because I often stretched the rules to the limit to better make my points or to draw people deeper into discussion.
In this case, I'm envisioning and presenting a worst case scenario: A min/max player with an extremely powerful (but focused) binder character who is trying to break the game (well, maybe that's not his intent, but that's what may well happen in his mad quest for power).
(And yes, I do have just such a character statted out, but that's more to help me keep my thoughts on the matter straight then to actually play in a game--only about 10% of anything I ever stat out actually sees play.)
Why do I always phrase my threads in this manner? Because it gets results.
Had I just been a passive "What do I do in this situation?" poster, than I would have had almost exactly one response from the each of you and then the thread would have died. However, since I made it more interesting, I got an ongoing dialog from several posters and the amount of feedback received was exponentially more than I would have received otherwise. The internet is an argumentative place where people just love debate. That's why you will see that element in a lot of my posts and threads. IT WORKS.
As a result, should a player ever come up to me in my games and try something like this, I will have a host of answers ready for him--even if he tried to press me again and again on the matter, much like I'm doing to you now.
This IS a common theme in all my threads. Absolutely.
(YAY! I'M 26 YEARS OLD TODAY!)
You seem to be TRYING to interpret and stretch all of the RAW to the furthest extent possible to favor the player in this situation and I am getting this picture that this is one of those "I have a friend who has erectile dysfunction... and he wants to know what can be done" situations.
just sayin'
Yeah, I get a strong vibe like that, too.
Plus, rule 0 and the "Munchkins die a thousand deaths" law always take care of people who think they can stretch the rules and gloat, with that "There's nothing you can do" face they always get - until they realise that a) The GM is not a judge, he can change the rules at whim when someone tries to get around and b) While that sword being displayed in the gaming room is not a real one, it's still a metre of metal that can be swung with great power for painful results ;-)
Oh, and Metric, by the way: You don't have to be embarrassed about your... issue (very Freudian for you to bring that up as an example, so I put 2 and 2 together). I hear many older man are heaving that problem. I hear they have medication for this!
;-P
+1. Tends to be common in your threads.You seem to be TRYING to interpret and stretch all of the RAW to the furthest extent possible to favor the player in this situation...
And that's deliberate. I was given a unique official title, "The Rules Lawyer From Hell" on other forums because I often stretched the rules to the limit to better make my points or to draw people deeper into discussion.
In this case, I'm envisioning and presenting a worst case scenario: A min/max player with an extremely powerful (but focused) binder character who is trying to break the game (well, maybe that's not his intent, but that's what may well happen in his mad quest for power).
(And yes, I do have just such a character statted out, but that's more to help me keep my thoughts on the matter straight then to actually play in a game--only about 10% of anything I ever stat out actually sees play.)
Why do I always phrase my threads in this manner? Because it gets results.
Had I just been a passive "What do I do in this situation?" poster, than I would have had almost exactly one response from the each of you and then the thread would have died. However, since I made it more interesting, I got an ongoing dialog from several posters and the amount of feedback received was exponentially more than I would have received otherwise. The internet is an argumentative place where people just love debate. That's why you will see that element in a lot of my posts and threads. IT WORKS.
As a result, should a player ever come up to me in my games and try something like this, I will have a host of answers ready for him--even if he tried to press me again and again on the matter, much like I'm doing to you now.
This IS a common theme in all my threads. Absolutely.
(YAY! I'M 26 YEARS OLD TODAY!)
Oh, good you've cleared that up. Now that we know for sure, we can conveniently ignore everything you ever write again. :)
Oh, good you've cleared that up. Now that we know for sure, we can conveniently ignore everything you ever write again. :)
But...but...but...then nobody will ever learn anything! :(
:P