What i would like to know is what kind of damage the Alchemists extra D6 bomb damage is. Also if that damage changes to say match what ever i might throw. Like i throw an Acid flask, is my extra D6 acid, or i throw Holy Water. Is my extra D6 Holy damage?
Bombs are their own items, not extra damage. the damage type is fire by default, though class features can change this.
*Edit*
the class feature to change bomb damage type is Discovery.
Yes it would appear the additional damage caused by the alchemist is of the same type that dealt the original damage.
Exception: Holy water:
p.160
Holy Water: Holy water damages undead creatures and
evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water
can be thrown as a splash weapon.
This is vague it seems to be an untyped damage.
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Yes it would appear the additional damage caused by the alchemist is of the same type that dealt the original damage.
Exception: Holy water:
p.160
Holy Water: Holy water damages undead creatures and
evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water
can be thrown as a splash weapon.This is vague it seems to be an untyped damage.
huh
"On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level "
but like it was said, you don't throw existing things as bombs, bomb is its own weapon and class feature, and there are abilities to change the element
Sorry wasn't clear.
1: Throwing acid flasks and holy water etc.
Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw
Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist
adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash
weapons. This bonus damage is already included in the
bomb class feature.
2: Bomb damage assuming discoveries alter the damage type.
Concussive bomb (requires one previous discovery): When the
alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict
sonic damage. Concussive bombs deal 1d4 points of sonic
damage, plus 1d4 points of sonic damage for every odd numbered
level, instead of 1d6.
The discoveries let you change the effects and type of damage a bomb deals and all additional damage is of the listed type not fire.
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On a similar topic. How does a bomb crit?
Does a 9th level Alchemist bomb (5d6) crit on a 20 and deal double? (10d6) or would it do (6d6) ?
Here is what the book says:
The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike)
The way that I read this is that only the first 1d6 doubles on a crit and that all the extra d6 are not part of the core bomb damage?
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On a similar topic. How does a bomb crit?
Does a 9th level Alchemist bomb (5d6) crit on a 20 and deal double? (10d6) or would it do (6d6) ?
Here is what the book says:
The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike)The way that I read this is that only the first 1d6 doubles on a crit and that all the extra d6 are not part of the core bomb damage?
yup. bombs only double the first d6. otherwise crits and vital strike get rediculous
You would also double the damage bonus received from your Int Mod.
Honestly people you don't actually read the classes do you?
Bombs are splash weapons as such they can not have a critical hit. This is covered in the splash weapons part of the combat rules.
Also the bombs don't have "extra damage" they are the amount of damage listed in the alchemist's entry. So you could critical with one you would double all damage of the bomb since it is the full bomb damage not "extra dice" of damage.
Edit for a quick apology:
Sorry shouldn't have been so rude in the initial post.
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Honestly people you don't actually read the classes do you?
Bombs are splash weapons as such they can not have a critical hit. This is covered in the splash weapons part of the combat rules.
Also the bombs don't have "extra damage" they are the amount of damage listed in the alchemist's entry. So you could critical with one you would double all damage of the bomb since it is the full bomb damage not "extra dice" of damage.
Edit for a quick apology:
Sorry shouldn't have been so rude in the initial post.
but the line "this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit" implies it can crit, or at least is worded haphazardly
also, where does it say that?
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
i don't see any mention of no crit's in there, is it somewhere else?
also its been ruled that everything but the 1st dice IS extra damage, just search the forums (so vital strike isn't broke because you can vital strike with a bomb)
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Abraham spalding:
"The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). "
Is there something somewhere else that implies the damage doesn't multiply? Or are you assuming that all the damage is "bonus damage"? That is rather odd wording IMO.
I suspect (hope) the wording for this will be cleared up a bit since it was brought up several times during the playtest.
Bombs are splash weapons as such they can not have a critical hit. This is covered in the splash weapons part of the combat rules.
No such rule. Splash weapons can crit and can have precision damage applied. This was true even in 3.5; one of the better builds for Scouts involved throwing alchemist's fire and acid flasks with the various grenadier feats, since Scouts didn't get their bonus damage on full attacks anyway. What you may be thinking is that splash damage isn't multiplied on a critical, since it's actually impossible to crit with splash damage (as there's no attack roll for it).
Also the bombs don't have "extra damage" they are the amount of damage listed in the alchemist's entry.
Also not true. The entry clearly lists it as bonus damage, not increasing the base damage. This has also been confirmed by Jason.
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Bombs are splash weapons as such they can not have a critical hit. This is covered in the splash weapons part of the combat rules.No such rule. Splash weapons can crit and can have precision damage applied. This was true even in 3.5; one of the better builds for Scouts involved throwing alchemist's fire and acid flasks with the various grenadier feats, since Scouts didn't get their bonus damage on full attacks anyway.
Also the bombs don't have "extra damage" they are the amount of damage listed in the alchemist's entry.Also not true. The entry clearly lists it as bonus damage, not increasing the base damage. This has also been confirmed by Jason.
no precision damage
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
they could in 3.5, but not in pf
no precision damage
they could in 3.5, but not in pf
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
Blah, another change-for-change's-sake change. Why was this needed?
Sorry for the incorrect information, regardless, and thanks for the correction.
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no precision damage
they could in 3.5, but not in pf
Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).Blah, another change-for-change's-sake change. Why was this needed?
Sorry for the incorrect information, regardless, and thanks for the correction.
it was changed because full round twf sneak attacks hitting touch ac is horribly broken
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So just for clarity because Abraham muddied the water.
A bomb does 1d6 damage plus INT and a variable amount of BONUS damage based on character level.
The base 1d6+INT is doubled on a crit or on vital strike or tripled with improved vital strike, the bonus damage is never multiplied.
Any time you hit with a bomb all of the damage is the same type, usually fire but that can be altered.
it was changed because full round twf sneak attacks hitting touch ac is horribly broken
I would hope not, because it isn't. Splash weapons are ranged weapons, meaning you don't threaten any squares, meaning you can't flank, meaning you have to deny the opponent their Dex bonus in some fashion in order to get Sneak Attack against them. In order to get a full attack with them, that means pretty much your only option is greater invisibility ... which you can't provide for yourself. It's much simpler to just poke things with daggers, and much less dangerous for your allies.
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So just for clarity because Abraham muddied the water.
A bomb does 1d6 damage plus INT and a variable amount of BONUS damage based on character level.
The base 1d6+INT is doubled on a crit or on vital strike or tripled with improved vital strike, the bonus damage is never multiplied.
You cannot sneak attack or use deadly aim with a bomb.
Ranger favored enemy damage will stack with bombs (don't make me chase down a quote on this, FE damage is not precision damage) Any time you hit with a bomb all of the damage is the same type, usually fire but that can be altered.
^
^this
finally someone got it all right
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it was changed because full round twf sneak attacks hitting touch ac is horribly brokenI would hope not, because it isn't. Splash weapons are ranged weapons, meaning you don't threaten any squares, meaning you can't flank, meaning you have to deny the opponent their Dex bonus in some fashion in order to get Sneak Attack against them. In order to get a full attack with them, that means pretty much your only option is greater invisibility ... which you can't provide for yourself. It's much simpler to just poke things with daggers, and much less dangerous for your allies.
no matter how you cut it, touch ac + sneak attack = broke. and a scroll of greater invis is only 700 gp, Dust of Disappearance is 3500. UMD is a class skill so the scrolls are easy enough to use. it lets you get full round touch ac ranged sneak attacks, and it unbalanced the game. Paizo thought the same and fixed it
no matter how you cut it, touch ac + sneak attack = broke.
Not at all. It's just damage, and Fighters deal far more damage than Rogues even if the Rogue is hitting touch.
and a scroll of greater invis is only 700 gp, Dust of Disappearance is 3500.
And both of which require you to forgo a round of attacks in combat, more than making up for the damage you gain from hitting touch instead of full AC.
it lets you get full round touch ac ranged sneak attacks, and it unbalanced the game.
Sorry, no, it didn't. I've seen glaivelocks (Warlocks with the eldritch glaive invocation to allow them to make 10' reach melee touch attack full round attack eldritch blasts) in play, which are far more effective than any acid flask throwing Rogue, and even they were bad compared to the actual martial characters.
Yes, I'm so use to seeing precision damage and critical damage as one and the same I mistakenly combined the two and over read things on the alchemical weapons.
Vital strike does not state it is precision damage so you can use it with the bombs (which would net you an extra 1d6 damage since the bombs specify they have a base damage of 1d6 instead of being like most multi-dice effects and having all the dice count as the base).
You cannot sneak attack with bombs since sneak attack is precision damage.
As a side note it would be nice if the people at Paizo would go through and start specifying what is and isn't precision damage. IMO things like point blank shot, deadly aim and vital strike should be precision damage -- it's a bit odd that you can't sneak attack an elemental but you can aim precisely with deadly aim to cause extra damage, or strike vitals for extra damage. Just my opinion though.
Finally: I agree with Zurai -- touch attacking rogues are not that powerful especially since they usually have to give up any other attack to get only a single touch attack. Even on the few corner cases where they can deliver several touch attacks in the same round they usually still aren't going to out damage the fighter.
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example:
20th level 2 handed fighter hits with all attacks. 4x[2d6(greatsword)+5d6(energy)+5(weapon mastery)+5(magic)+21(from strength)+4 (greater weapon specialization)]= 238 average
all twf feats rogue with alchemist fire (and assuming they COULD quick draw alchemist fires) 6x[1d6+9d6 sneak]= 210 avg damage
really close to the fighter. too close for comfort. and in 3.5 where the fighter had 5 less damage per hit(total of 20 less) it was even closer
now a twf fighter does come ahead by a lot more in pf, but do you see the point i'm making?
example:
20th level 2 handed fighter hits with all attacks. 4x[2d6(greatsword)+5d6(energy)+5(weapon mastery)+5(magic)+21(from strength)+4 (greater weapon specialization)]= 238 average
all twf feats rogue with alchemist fire (and assuming they COULD quick draw alchemist fires) 6x[1d6+9d6 sneak]= 210 avg damage
really close to the fighter. too close for comfort. and in 3.5 where the fighter had 5 less damage per hit(total of 20 less) it was even closer
now a twf fighter does come ahead by a lot more in pf, but do you see the point i'm making?
Archery fighter comes out even more ahead. Also you left off power attack for the fighter which is going to come out to 5x18 more points of damage = 90 more points.
So in actuality we have:
Fighter: 300 avg damage
twf throwing rogue (that somehow manages to full attack with alchemist fire against something that is denied its dex bonus to him): 210 avg damage
And before you try and add deadly aim to that remember deadly aim specifically doesn't work with touch attacks.
Also that fighter will auto confirm any critical he gets with that greatsword (and with improved critical) which will probably be around 20% of the time.
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example:
20th level 2 handed fighter hits with all attacks. 4x[2d6(greatsword)+5d6(energy)+5(weapon mastery)+5(magic)+21(from strength)+4 (greater weapon specialization)]= 238 average
all twf feats rogue with alchemist fire (and assuming they COULD quick draw alchemist fires) 6x[1d6+9d6 sneak]= 210 avg damage
really close to the fighter. too close for comfort. and in 3.5 where the fighter had 5 less damage per hit(total of 20 less) it was even closer
now a twf fighter does come ahead by a lot more in pf, but do you see the point i'm making?
Archery fighter comes out even more ahead. Also you left off power attack for the fighter which is going to come out to 5x18 more points of damage = 90 more points.
So in actuality we have:
Fighter: 300 avg damage
twf throwing rogue (that somehow manages to full attack with alchemist fire against something that is denied its dex bonus to him): 210 avg damageAnd before you try and add deadly aim to that remember deadly aim specifically doesn't work with touch attacks.
Also that fighter will auto confirm any critical he gets with that greatsword (and with improved critical) which will probably be around 20% of the time.
should be 18x4, not 5, so 72 damage. and i know about deadly aim and ranged touch attacks.
still, it makes a rogues job too easy to let them make range touch attacks IMHO
Yeah early morning math.
Still, considering all they have to do just to make that ranged touch attack get sneak attack damage in the first place, I'm not convinced that it is broken -- especially since rogues will rarely get more than one such shot out in a round.
20th level 2 handed fighter hits with all attacks. 4x[2d6(greatsword)+5d6(energy)+5(weapon mastery)+5(magic)+21(from strength)+4 (greater weapon specialization)]= 238 average
how do you get +21 from strength?
how do you get +21 from strength?
14 strength bonus * 1.5 for a 2 handed weapon = 21. Now, how he's getting 38 strength, I'm not sure. Also not sure how he's getting +5 from weapon mastery, since that caps at +4.
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Bombs are splash weapons as such they can not have a critical hit. This is covered in the splash weapons part of the combat rules.No such rule. Splash weapons can crit and can have precision damage applied. This was true even in 3.5; one of the better builds for Scouts involved throwing alchemist's fire and acid flasks with the various grenadier feats, since Scouts didn't get their bonus damage on full attacks anyway. What you may be thinking is that splash damage isn't multiplied on a critical, since it's actually impossible to crit with splash damage (as there's no attack roll for it).
Also the bombs don't have "extra damage" they are the amount of damage listed in the alchemist's entry.Also not true. The entry clearly lists it as bonus damage, not increasing the base damage. This has also been confirmed by Jason.
No they cannot, look it up page 202 of the PFCRB. Splash weapons cannot have precision damage applied, this includes sneak attacks, vital strike and primarily critical hits.
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how do you get +21 from strength?14 strength bonus * 1.5 for a 2 handed weapon = 21. Now, how he's getting 38 strength, I'm not sure. Also not sure how he's getting +5 from weapon mastery, since that caps at +4.
ah, extra point from mastery.
20th level fighter: 25str(start with 20 add all stat points)+6(item)+5(tomes)=36. so its 19, not 21. my bad
hmmm, stupid math in head being wrong.
+2 for being a badass? lol,
or just figure its an orc?
but that actually makes the rogue closer to fighter damage in my example.
I figured it was probably 19, without polymorphing, 36 is the max for a stat for a base race.
That would also increase the damage of the weapon.