I am trying to create a new game world to run a campaign in, and I am thinking I would like to have it so that there are no 'gods' or religions in it. So, in contemplating how to explain how clerics get their spells, I thought this idea up. Rather than have to figure some other explanation out, I want to make it so that both divine and arcane casters have full access to BOTH spell lists (i.e. mages can cast cleric spells, & vice versa)
What do you think about this idea? Does it greatly unbalance the game in any way? Is it making one or the other class irrelevant at all?
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Why would anyone play a Wizard if a Cleric gets access to their spell list?
The Cleric has a better HD, Channel Energy, Domains, better saving throws and a better BAB.
I would recommend you keep the classes as they are and re-flavour the Clerics. For example, Cleric's could be individuals who represent a cause, the very zeal and faith in this cause granting them their divine magic; powered purely by strength of will.
I am trying to create a new game world to run a campaign in, and I am thinking I would like to have it so that there are no 'gods' or religions in it. So, in contemplating how to explain how clerics get their spells, I thought this idea up. Rather than have to figure some other explanation out, I want to make it so that both divine and arcane casters have full access to BOTH spell lists (i.e. mages can cast cleric spells, & vice versa)
What do you think about this idea? Does it greatly unbalance the game in any way? Is it making one or the other class irrelevant at all?
Hey there,
You might want to check out our Magus class. It's a caster with access to spell lists from different classes (ie: cleric/wizard), one being primary and the other secondary. Sounds like it could solve your dilemma:
Hyrum.
Well, if both classes are getting access to the other's spell lists, let's see what they're getting:
Wizards: cure spells, resurrection magic, a few good buffs, some useful anti-status spells (e.g. freedom of movement)
Clerics: grease, glitterdust, color spray, the entire evocation school, web, wall of force, limited wish, power words (in case they're bored), time stop, wish, and several hundred other spells
There's really no reason to be a wizard or sorcerer in this world if you can play a cleric and get all the wizard's toys. The cure spells and whatnot don't compensate for domain powers, channel energy, better BAB/armor/weapons/saves.
I think I see where you're going with this.
Unearthed Arcana (3.5) provides a system with only 3 character classes. I can't remember for sure, but I think they were called Warrior, Expert and Adept. Anyway, the spellcaster could pick any spells they wanted. If I remember correctly, they were sort of like 3.5 sorcerers, but with a broader selection to choose from.
You might also look at Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. The campaign setting describes a world where many people believe in deities, but there's no proof of them. There are lots of different caster types, but no clerics. I believe at least some "divine"-like spells are available to most casters. In any case, it's a pretty interesting look at alternative classes and casting, but is compatible with 3.5 gaming.
Maybe check out the Archivist from Heroes of Horror. They're basically wizards (that can wear armor) that have a prayerbook of divine spells instead of a spellbook with arcane spells. They can even learn to use druid spells. They also have some nifty party buffing abilities, kind of like a bard, but using Knowledge instead of Perform.
I think the WotC site even posted the class on their site back in the day, so you could search for it there.
You could potentially remove clerics and allow sorcerers to pick cleric spells freely. Adding witches might be good too.
Optionally clerics might gain power from powerful spirits instead, though they would be much alike to gods in the mind of people they are infact far more limited and grant powers through pacts with mortals.
Thanks for all the replies, everybody. Lots of stuff to think about.
Kalyth, it sounds like you have put a lot of thought into that too.
A simple solution would be to say clerics specialize in wielding positive and negative energies, druids elemental energies, and mages, bards, and sorcerers with raw magical energies that are manipulated into many forms already present on your current plane (explains why these unrefined magical energies turn into fire, lightening, etc...)
Also, keep the spell lists seperate. It will unbalance your game with everyone playing clerics for the better things they get than mages.
Another option would be to allow arcane caster access to divine spells and vice versa but at a level higher.
IE
Cure light wounds is a level 2 wizard spell.
Magic Missle is a level 2 cleric spell.
Another option would be to allow arcane caster access to divine spells and vice versa but at a level higher.
IE
Cure light wounds is a level 2 wizard spell.
Magic Missle is a level 2 cleric spell.
Ohhhh....I kinda like this idea. Thanks.
Ohhhh....I kinda like this idea. Thanks.Another option would be to allow arcane caster access to divine spells and vice versa but at a level higher.
IE
Cure light wounds is a level 2 wizard spell.
Magic Missle is a level 2 cleric spell.
I do too, but you might require Clerics to cast the spell at 2 levels higher. Otherwise, the better HD, attack, saves and armor proficiency would obviate clerics as the only choice for casters.
I do too, but you might require Clerics to cast the spell at 2 levels higher. Otherwise, the better HD, attack, saves and armor proficiency would obviate clerics as the only choice for casters.Ohhhh....I kinda like this idea. Thanks.Another option would be to allow arcane caster access to divine spells and vice versa but at a level higher.
IE
Cure light wounds is a level 2 wizard spell.
Magic Missle is a level 2 cleric spell.If I was going to allow access to spells from across spell lists. A few things I would think about.
What spell combos suddenly become possible. Wizard Transformation stacked with Divine Power/Divine favor and any number of other Cleric buffs. Who would need a fighter.
For cross spell access I would have the spells be from different styles of magic and raise the DC to learn by +5 or +10 for Wizards. I would also up the spell level by +2 (for 1st & 2nd) +3 or +4 for higher level spells.
Alternately you could consider all spells not on your spell list as "Opposed School Spell" they require two slots to cast/prepare for any caster.
Note: Divine Favor and Divine Power no longer stack in PF.
Woo, the cleric can spend 3 rounds buffing(while his friends are dying), uses a level 7(Transformation), a level 5(Righteous Might), and a level 4(Divine Power) spell. And after all of that, the cleric can do slightly better damage than a pure fighter with haste for 1 round per level.
Having actually played a Holy Warrior Cleric(cleric with full BAB), I can tell you that a cleric with full BAB is overrated. A Holy warrior cleric requires 2 rounds of buffing to match what a fighter can do, and even then, the cleric can only match the fighter for 2 or 3 combats a day.
Be careful with the spell swapping since it would essentially give all casters benefits allocated to a specific class (mystic theurge)
Be careful with the spell swapping since it would essentially give all casters benefits allocated to a specific class (mystic theurge)
Yeah, probably a good idea to make it level +2 so that the MT ability and class gives some benefit.