I came up with an idea for a high level trap designed to both delay intruders' advancement and perhaps, destroy them altogether if things go poorly. I wanted some opinions on whether it was balanced and/or interesting enough:
First, there will be a magical door or similar barrier (hereafter referred to as the "lock") that needs to be crossed by the PCs. The door has X number of levers/switches/whatever (hereafter referred to as "keys") that need to be manipulated simultaneously for the lock to open (where X is the number of people in the party +1). Each key is set far away from all other keys, in different areas, rooms, whatever. Essentially, the lock can only be opened by completely separating the party AND by being clever/expending resources (using telekinesis to manipulate two keys or summoning a monster to get the remaining key).
When the keys are all manipulated simultaneously, the lock opens. However, opening the lock also sets off the trap. A doppelganger appears opposite each PC by their respective keys. The doppelgangers are identical to those created by a mirror of opposition and they act to both destroy their respective originals, as well as to prevent them from getting past the open lock.
I would consider this a very difficult trap seeing as the PCs will be fighting themselves, but I think they will have the upper hand in the end since if one of them wins the fight, they can then move on and aid their allies against the other doppelgangers, whereas if a doppelganger wins, he simply disappears, the trap having been resolved.
What do you guys think? Too tough for a trap? How much XP do you think such a trap should be worth?
Freakin' orsm man!
Great trap, tho i'd make it so that they had to activate the keys simultaneously, so they couldn't help each other. If they're a caster have the doppleganger have the same spells available as the PC.
XP? The same CR as the PC's are. So if they're 7th lvl, each Doppleganger would be 7th lvl and they'd get corresponding XP.
Freakin' orsm man!
Great trap, tho i'd make it so that they had to activate the keys simultaneously, so they couldn't help each other. If they're a caster have the doppleganger have the same spells available as the PC.
XP? The same CR as the PC's are. So if they're 7th lvl, each Doppleganger would be 7th lvl and they'd get corresponding XP.
I agree. They are fighting themselves so the trap would be the same CR as if the PCs were the critters.
Great trap, tho i'd make it so that they had to activate the keys simultaneously, so they couldn't help each other.
Somebody isn't reading closely enough. I specifically said the keys had to be activated simultaneously for the lock to open from the every beginning. Otherwise, a single person could get through the lock without too much trouble. This is a trap designed to divide and conquer and, failing that, simply delay and weaken the crap out of a small infiltration force so that the defenders can ready other defenses.
I came up with an idea for a high level trap designed to both delay intruders' advancement and perhaps, destroy them altogether if things go poorly. I wanted some opinions on whether it was balanced and/or interesting enough:
First, there will be a magical door or similar barrier (hereafter referred to as the "lock") that needs to be crossed by the PCs. The door has X number of levers/switches/whatever (hereafter referred to as "keys") that need to be manipulated simultaneously for the lock to open (where X is the number of people in the party +1). Each key is set far away from all other keys, in different areas, rooms, whatever. Essentially, the lock can only be opened by completely separating the party AND by being clever/expending resources (using telekinesis to manipulate two keys or summoning a monster to get the remaining key).
When the keys are all manipulated simultaneously, the lock opens. However, opening the lock also sets off the trap. A doppelganger appears opposite each PC by their respective keys. The doppelgangers are identical to those created by a mirror of opposition and they act to both destroy their respective originals, as well as to prevent them from getting past the open lock.
I would consider this a very difficult trap seeing as the PCs will be fighting themselves, but I think they will have the upper hand in the end since if one of them wins the fight, they can then move on and aid their allies against the other doppelgangers, whereas if a doppelganger wins, he simply disappears, the trap having been resolved.
What do you guys think? Too tough for a trap? How much XP do you think such a trap should be worth?
It is pretty similar in EL to a boss fight. I would probably make the trap passable, but hard to pass without high skill checks. It is a cool idea though.
It is pretty similar in EL to a boss fight.
Perhaps it is too powerful than. Dealing with a boos fight or equivalent is one thing, but traps in general lead to something. If that "something" is an enemy or enemies, than it may well be like fighting two boss fights in a row, which can be easily lethal.
It is pretty similar in EL to a boss fight.Perhaps it is too powerful than. Dealing with a boos fight or equivalent is one thing, but traps in general lead to something. If that "something" is an enemy or enemies, than it may well be like fighting two boss fights in a row, which can be easily lethal.
My reasoning is that if you fight something that has a CR equal to your level your chances for success are about 50/50. Since you are fighting yourself whoever wins initiative will most likely win.
My reasoning is that if you fight something that has a CR equal to your level your chances for success are about 50/50. Since you are fighting yourself whoever wins initiative will most likely win.
I partially agree. I think it would be more like 40/60 in the PCs favor for the aforementioned reasons, but that's just me being nitpicky.
Great trap, tho i'd make it so that they had to activate the keys simultaneously, so they couldn't help each other.Somebody isn't reading closely enough. I specifically said the keys had to be activated simultaneously for the lock to open from the every beginning. Otherwise, a single person could get through the lock without too much trouble. This is a trap designed to divide and conquer and, failing that, simply delay and weaken the crap out of a small infiltration force so that the defenders can ready other defenses.
That's where you confused me. Please clarify which one of these statements you mean:
When the keys are all manipulated simultaneously, the lock opens. However, opening the lock also sets off the trap. A doppelganger appears opposite each PC by their respective keys.
but I think they will have the upper hand in the end since if one of them wins the fight, they can then move on and aid their allies against the other doppelgangers
*edit* In any case, I think it would be heaps more interesting the 1st way. Otherwise they'll probably just beat up on one at a time.
That's where you confused me. Please clarify which one of these statements you mean:
When the keys are all manipulated simultaneously, the lock opens. However, opening the lock also sets off the trap. A doppelganger appears opposite each PC by their respective keys.but I think they will have the upper hand in the end since if one of them wins the fight, they can then move on and aid their allies against the other doppelgangers*edit* In any case, I think it would be heaps more interesting the 1st way. Otherwise they'll probably just beat up on one at a time.
Those statements do not contradict one another. The fights start more or less simultaneously since the trap triggers only once. However, should someone beat their doppelganger before the others beat their's, then the victor might be able to move to another area to help a friend who is still fighting.
The trap isn't triggered when they manipulate the keys. The trap is triggered when the lock is opened. The trap's effect just happens to manifest at each of the keys.
I hate it when you say "more interesting the first way" since that implies that what I said wasn't the "first way" to begin with, which it was.
My mistake. Hate's a strong word tho.
What I meant tho, was that it would be more intense if they couldn't end the fight and help each other. Maybe when the traps go off, the doors shut and lock?
I suppose it's not a big difference tho, if one or two end up helping one or two others?
I'm a fan of cinematic tension tho :)
What I meant tho, was that it would be more intense if they couldn't end the fight and help each other. Maybe when the traps go off, the doors shut and lock?
I suppose it's not a big difference tho, if one or two end up helping one or two others?
I'm a fan of cinematic tension tho :)
I already thought of locking them in their respective areas too (though I didn't mention it up thread) and I think that it would be a little too much if I did that.
Really, the only real advantage the PCs would have is the possibility of helping each other out.
I'm also a fan.
They know their weaknesses and strengths pretty well, i've found.
A few questions:
1) How would a player know which was his friend and which was the doppleganger? In either case, they both look identical (well, except for the new wounds since they started fighting).
2) Would the doppleganger have the same knowledge, weapons and gear as the PC?
3) What happens if the PC just runs away (dim door for help, etc)?
4) What happens if your PCs just have summoned creatures, etc, turn the keys? or do a diviniation to know to have that happen?
5) With a Mirror of Opposition, you at least can claim, sell the mirror, have you factored that into the loot/reward equation?
6) To be consistent, in case your players want to set up a similar trap, have you worked out how it was done and what the requirements are?
A few questions:
1) How would a player know which was his friend and which was the doppleganger? In either case, they both look identical (well, except for the new wounds since they started fighting).
2) Would the doppleganger have the same knowledge, weapons and gear as the PC?
3) What happens if the PC just runs away (dim door for help, etc)?
4) What happens if your PCs just have summoned creatures, etc, turn the keys? or do a diviniation to know to have that happen?
5) With a Mirror of Opposition, you at least can claim, sell the mirror, have you factored that into the loot/reward equation?
6) To be consistent, in case your players want to set up a similar trap, have you worked out how it was done and what the requirements are?
1) They wouldn't know without a Sense Motive check at the very least.
2) It would have everything the PC has access to.
3) If it is able, the doppelganger will follow up until the PC leaves the larger area entirely (which could be hundred and hundreds of feet).
4) This is actually expected, at least in part, since there will be more keys than players. Anyone within a few dozen feet of a key (including summons) will have a doppelganger.
5) There are no mirrors to sell. The doppelgangers are an effect, but there is no apparent source besides the lock and keys.
6) I was hoping to get some advice on what a trap like this might cost and what prerequisites it might have. It may well vary, depending on the nature of the lock (a big door would be different from a wall of force). I was thinking of using the mirror of opposition as a basis in any event.
I would consider the party fighting themselves to be too much, only if you are way better at playing their PCs than they are >.>
If he gets to study the character sheets before the fight he could defeat them, but if he gets the sheets right at point of combat the players might pull it out. The more complicated their characters the better the chances.
I think this could be a cool and fun encounter, but it would be very challenging. It should be a fairly major event in the campaign.
If they also come up with a way of bypassing the door that would reasonably work, they should be allowed past it.
IMO, I think the BEST way to handle a Mirror of Opposition is THIS, however:
What is a good way of making it "obvious" that all keys need to be manipulated at once? The trick should be trying to figure out how to manipulate the +1, not figuring out how it works.
I'm worried that the players will meander around for an hour or more confused as to why the nearby lever doesn't seem to be opening the lock.
This is a boss-level encounter for sure. Since the mirror clones are identical in every way except alignment to the PCs, that means they have PC stats and PC wealth, which means that instead of the normal (class level - 1) for CR, their CR is equal to their class level. Assuming a party of 4 level X PCs, that means you have 4 CR X enemies. To determine EL of an encounter with multiple same-CR enemies, you increase the EL every time the count of enemies double. In other words, 1 CR X enemy is an EL X encounter, 2 is EL X+2, and 4 is EL X+4. An EL 4 above the party is BBEG/potential TPK territory. This one would probably actually get an extra +1 or +2 EL over that, even, because of the forced split party aspect.
In other words, this is probably too dangerous a trap if you only intend it as a delaying measure.
A few more questions:
How do they know that the other keys are in the various rooms? Or how many there are?
How will the players be able to time using the keys at the same time? Are they close enough to do it by yelling?
Why does the BBEG have this as a set up?
How do others bypass the trap?
What happens if the PCs decide to not play along and smash the door?
A few more questions:
1) How do they know that the other keys are in the various rooms? Or how many there are?
2) How will the players be able to time using the keys at the same time? Are they close enough to do it by yelling?
3) Why does the BBEG have this as a set up?
4) How do others bypass the trap?
5) What happens if the PCs decide to not play along and smash the door?
Numbered for my convenience.
1) The lock will ideally be one of the last things they face before the end of the current adventure/task/whatever. As such, they will most likely have encountered the keys in previous rooms and thus be aware of their existence and number (though they may not have been aware of what they were for prior to discovering the lock).
2) They are at least far enough apart that the party is effectively split up (my initial thought would be a few hundred feet in between any given key). Figuring out the timed coordination is part of the puzzle.
3) For a number of reasons: It makes an effective barrier, sounds an alarm (combat can get pretty loud), give him time to set up more defenses, and weakens if not destroy the intruders. In general though, this kind of trap would be set up to protect something extremely valuable from powerful intruders, such as a lich's phylactery.
4) Probably with magic.
5) If they can simply smash there way though the lock, then it would be a pretty crappy puzzle trap. Ideally the lock is something that would take far too much effort to get through, through brute force alone. Given time and resources, the intruders could eventually get through the lock I suppose (depending on its nature), but they might not have the time on hand to do so (such as trying to get to the phylactery before the lich respawns or to get to their dying friend on the other side before he expires).
Perhaps it is impossible to smash through, such as a magic portal to another plane. You could smash the ring that houses the portal, but then you aren't going anywhere.
The easiest way to have them realize the door works that way is tell them. An NPC gives them a clue (or offers it hidden in a riddle), a Magic Mouth on the door tells them, it's scrawled on the wall or written on a note in the pocket of recently slain enemy.
What is a good way of making it "obvious" that all keys need to be manipulated at once? The trick should be trying to figure out how to manipulate the +1, not figuring out how it works.
I'm worried that the players will meander around for an hour or more confused as to why the nearby lever doesn't seem to be opening the lock.
I'm assuming there's a Rogue in the party, make the lock half *click* when they turn the key, and with a Perception or (more likely) a Disable Device check, s/he discerns that (at least) another tumbler needs to be turned for the mechanism to open.
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The mirror of opposition is deadly, but not unreasonably so.
Five things to remember about the mirror:
First, as you stated - a PC that defeats his opposite is free to help his allies; while a duplicate simply shatters.
Second, the "opposites" seek to destroy their counterparts. This means that they won't be prioritizing targets correctly. It might make more sense to go after the mage first, but the duplicates are driven to wipe out their counterparts above all else. This is a huge tactical disadvantage.
Third, destroying the mirror itself also destroys all the duplicates (though this doesn't appear to be a factor in your 'trap', which does not seem to feature the mirror of opposition itself.
Fourth, the duplicates do necessarily have all of the original's knowledge and memories. Specifically, they may lack detailed (or even general) knowledge of the other PCs' abilities. Potentially another huge disadvantage.
Finally, if you are using an Action Point system (as Eberron and many other games do), the opposites will be at a disadvantage here, too.
4) How do others bypass the trap?4) Probably with magic.
Actually, for this question I was more thinking of the BBEG itself and it's minions. How do they manage to go in and out without setting off the trap?
Unless the BBEG only uses magic to enter it's lair (then why have a door at all, even a trapped on), there has to be a way to bypass the trap and that means that the players may be able to figure it out (which means that you need to know what it is :) ).
I find it easier to roll with the unexpected player actions when I understand the "why" of all the nice little things in the adventure. Why is the lair there? Why is it trapped like that? Why is the BBEG doing all this? Why hasn't the BBEG taken out the players already? Why doesn't the BBEG rush out to fight the players when it's trap goes off, to be able to fight them individually? why didn't the BBEG also have doors drop and seal off each room to make it easier for it to take out those pesky adventurers? etc.
Not trying to shoot down you nifty little trap, but playing devil's advocate to ensure that you get all of the bases covered.
4) How do others bypass the trap?4) Probably with magic.
Actually, for this question I was more thinking of the BBEG itself and it's minions. How do they manage to go in and out without setting off the trap?
Unless the BBEG only uses magic to enter it's lair (then why have a door at all, even a trapped on), there has to be a way to bypass the trap and that means that the players may be able to figure it out (which means that you need to know what it is :) ).
I find it easier to roll with the unexpected player actions when I understand the "why" of all the nice little things in the adventure. Why is the lair there? Why is it trapped like that? Why is the BBEG doing all this? Why hasn't the BBEG taken out the players already? Why doesn't the BBEG rush out to fight the players when it's trap goes off, to be able to fight them individually? why didn't the BBEG also have doors drop and seal off each room to make it easier for it to take out those pesky adventurers? etc.
Not trying to shoot down you nifty little trap, but playing devil's advocate to ensure that you get all of the bases covered.
Perhaps when I use the trap in a game these will be questions that I could answer. At the moment, the trap is merely theoretical, as are the reasons for its existence (whatever they might be).
Enemy with PC levels CR = level -1.
A party of 4 PC is +4 CR
Splitting up the party +1 CR
So I would put the CR at party level +4.
I'd worry about killing half the party off.
Of course, I would also hand a photocopied sheet to each of the other players and say something like: "Bill, here is an evil copy of Frank's character. Try to kill him. Frank, here is an evil copy of Carol's character, try to ..." you get the idea. Then I'd just sit back an referee.
My other worry would be when the players want to loot their own bodies. Are you prepared to (a) double their stuff? or (b) deal with a bunch of angry players who were not allowed to double their stuff?
I'm ready for B. The doppelgangers disappear at the end of the conflict along with all their gear.
Any encounter-appropriate treasure will be on the other side of the lock.
If anyone complains, it just means they are whiny babies with expectations.
What happens if the rogue in the party has the trick trap sense? Does he get to make his free trap search for each door/key and when would he get to make the check?
What happens if the rogue in the party has the trick trap sense? Does he get to make his free trap search for each door/key and when would he get to make the check?
Now that IS something that I had not thought about.
Anyone have an idea on how or where one might disarm such a trap?
Well the Perception/Disable Device DC check is 25 + spell lvl.
There's no spell involved, but it's CL 15, which can cast 8th lvl spells, so I'd say DC 33.
Keep in mind tho, that if you smash the Mirror (Hardness 1, HP 5) you cause all images to vanish.
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Well the Perception/Disable Device DC check is 25 + spell lvl.
There's no spell involved, but it's CL 15, which can cast 8th lvl spells, so I'd say DC 33.
Keep in mind tho, that if you smash the Mirror (Hardness 1, HP 5) you cause all images to vanish.
Easy to protect the mirror from everyone but the mage with a wall of force, of course the mage is in the hardest spot because for him it is going to be who rolls the higher init he or his double, winner takes all .
If the level is lower you could also be fiendish and put the in an unreachable spot and then create a series of mirrors, prisms and lens that make the doubles appear in the room from a single mirror source. If one of the players can a) defeat their double b) some how cleverly navigate the very tight path to the mirror then power too them for being clever. You could allow some weird stuff like if they smash the right prism/lens it affects one or more of the doubles with a reduce person (no save.) If they get the wrong one... enlarge. Describe the altered forms like that of people staring into a carnival mirror.
I like the whole trap idea very much.
I think that the trap would be a unique and memorable "BBEG" in itself, and could well be the last obstacle protecting the MacGuffin, so that there was no need for anybody to ever bypass it.
What happens if the rogue in the party has the trick trap sense? Does he get to make his free trap search for each door/key and when would he get to make the check?Now that IS something that I had not thought about.
Anyone have an idea on how or where one might disarm such a trap?
Lets see, if they find the trap.
A low disarm check would let them trigger it intentionally. This would let them fight against the images as a group.
A high disarm check might let them trigger each image independently. So it would be the whole group against a single image.
What is a good way of making it "obvious" that all keys need to be manipulated at once? The trick should be trying to figure out how to manipulate the +1, not figuring out how it works.
I'm worried that the players will meander around for an hour or more confused as to why the nearby lever doesn't seem to be opening the lock.
I think a good way to make it obvious without outright telling the players would be have a lever in sight of the door and when it's pulled a light goes on above it and when they let go the lever resets and the light goes off.