Okay, I'm being a little dramatic. It's not really "eternal life". However, given the new rules that let PCs recharge staves, it looks like the cost is out of balance.
A "Staff of Life" can use 1 charge to cast 'heal' or 5 charges to cast 'raise dead'.
Now normally 'raise dead' cost 5,000 gold worth of diamond dust. Yet a level 11 cleric can use 'heal' to add charges to a 'Staff of Life' that essentially gives the party a FREE 'raise dead' spell every five days.
It's true the recently revived come back with two negative levels but the same cleric can cast restoration to make those go away.
...DMs may want to think twice about putting one of these staves in their game. I was planning on having death be a more of a challenge. Now PC death is a minor inconvenience. Yes, the same cleric could memorize raise dead and restoration without the staff but the party would still have to find and/or pay for diamond dust. There is no penalty for death with this item in the game.
Any thoughts on this?
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Hmm 109,400 is hardly free. The break even point is 21 raise dead spells which for most parties is going to take a while to use. For groups with a ton of party deaths maybe it's worthwhile but for others not so much.
Consider for a minute also that spending that 100k on other items might just prevent you from getting killed and it's even less a bargain.
Also, at higher levels (when this sort of item is appropriate) speedy resurrection is important and you are more likely to use True Res, Resurrection, or Clone to get back into things in a hurry.
It's certainly not a good idea to drop this into a 7th level campaign.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Hmm 109,400 is hardly free. The break even point is 21 raise dead spells which for most parties is going to take a while to use. For groups with a ton of party deaths maybe it's worthwhile but for others not so much.
I just counted the material component cost, since the heals for 1 charge are pretty useful on their own.
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Hmm 109,400 is hardly free. The break even point is 21 raise dead spells which for most parties is going to take a while to use. For groups with a ton of party deaths maybe it's worthwhile but for others not so much.I just counted the material component cost, since the heals for 1 charge are pretty useful on their own.
True, I might suggest an alternate version of this which requires you provide the material component would be more useful since it would be rationally priced for more groups.
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It's kind of curious, if you were to duplicate this staff using the creation guidelines it would be vastly more expensive.
To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.
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The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
So the base cost would be 250,000 for the material components alone.
Creative Director
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Raise dead is handy... but a fair amount of things that PCs at high level face can result in corpses that raise dead can't help. Death effects, missing body parts, disintegration... by the time a party can afford or finds a staff of life, raise dead won't always solve their death problems.
As mentioned above, a staff of life isn't a good idea to hand out to low or mid level parties (unless you're running an unusual campaign where frequent resurrections are part of the storyline, of course), but it's hardly broken at higher levels.
It's kind of curious, if you were to duplicate this staff using the creation guidelines it would be vastly more expensive.
So the base cost would be 250,000 for the material components alone.To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.
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The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
No, it wouldn't. Raise dead costs 5,000 gold. Times 50 charges, that's 250,000 gold, but then you divide it by the number of charges the spell takes, 5 in this case. That gives us 50,000 gold for material components. As far as I can tell, the staff is priced exactly according to the pricing guidelines.
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No, it wouldn't. Raise dead costs 5,000 gold. Times 50 charges, that's 250,000 gold, but then you divide it by the number of charges the spell takes, 5 in this case. That gives us 50,000 gold for material components. As far as I can tell, the staff is priced exactly according to the pricing guidelines.
Ah yes reading comprehension fail on my part again.
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in the Pathfinder core book, Staves only have 10 charges, not 50.
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in the Pathfinder core book, Staves only have 10 charges, not 50.
Doesn't matter; they're priced the same as they are in 3.5 intentionally. They'd be dramatically too cheap if they were priced at 10 charges (the abovementioned staff of life would only cost 69,400 gold, for example, or 39,700 to make).
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Creative Director
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Correct. I believe that they're intentionally priced as if they had 50 charges, since while they only contain 10, they can be recharged. Over time, you'll get far more than 50 uses out of a spell cast from a staff, but the fact that it can only hold 10 charges at a time helps to ameliorate that fact.
It's also a wonderful return to the first edition staff which could be recharged. The fact that 3.x lacked such a mechanic always bothered me, and since staves generally cost so much I would avoid them in general.
With pathfinder I find them (staves) a very useful tool again.
Also about Raise Dead:
Don't forget your 2 negative levels! You got to get rid of those somehow and that costs money in and of itself in addition to time.
Hmm 109,400 is hardly free. The break even point is 21 raise dead spells which for most parties is going to take a while to use.
Maybe his GM is a bat rastard?
Hm... Blootwort: Is that you, Alex? Benni? Bob? :D
Okay, I'm being a little dramatic. It's not really "eternal life". However, given the new rules that let PCs recharge staves, it looks like the cost is out of balance.
In my limited experience with these as a player, it's not been a problem. If you're in an adventure with a time limit, as most are, then you've got a real problem recharging those staves fast enough. The two negative levels start to hurt as well. 2,000 GP cost per party death still hurts and still adds up... and that's IF you happen to have it in diamond dust specifically. And wandering around with 2 negative levels starts to become a death sentence.
If you want death to hurt a little more, just make sure that players can't spontaneously transfer GP to diamond dust and that they can't use the diamond dust as currency. (They would be able to sell it, but there's not a huge market of buyers for it.)
The two negative levels start to hurt as well. 2,000 GP cost per party death still hurts and still adds up... and that's IF you happen to have it in diamond dust specifically. And wandering around with 2 negative levels starts to become a death sentence.
And, as Abraham hinted at, you have to wait a week to remove the second negative level.
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Not a huge market? When it's the world equivalent of a 1up?
Well, I get that there are only so many clerics that can use it, but it is still pretty valuable.
I've always been amused at the economics of it. Poor cleric goes to raise someone and the market price changes, so suddenly that 5000gp of diamond dust is only worth 4975. :)
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oh my gosh, I never read that about Restoration only being able to remove one negative level a week. I also just reread it and noticed the diamond dust cost for restoration too.
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.I already warned my players before the campaign began that there isn't a big market for diamond dust. Anyone who has any is going to be rich or high-level and know what it's used for and will likely keep enough for their own survival.
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.We are using Pathfinder but I'm DMing a published adventure that already had the staff of life in it. This is a 3.5 adventure and staves couldn't get recharged back then.
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.I appreciate everyone's comments. I don't feel so bad about letting them have the staff now. I'm sure they'll need it (Muhahahahaha).
The cleric will cast restoration but walking around with 1 negative level for a week is going to bother/worry the PCs enough.
(KaeYoss - sorry, I am not Alex, Benni, or Bob.)
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We are using Pathfinder but I'm DMing a published adventure that already had the staff of life in it. This is a 3.5 adventure and staves couldn't get recharged back then.
I suspect RHoD? I was thinking of exactly that item, I would suggest you make it a one off staff that never recharges because the change is a pretty huge difference in power at that point.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I suspect RHoD? I was thinking of exactly that item, I would suggest you make it a one off staff that never recharges because the change is a pretty huge difference in power at that point.
I was thinking of that too, but I'm not sure it's such a big deal. By the time PCs can recharge it, they'll likely be starting part 4, and not have that much time to make use of it.
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I suspect RHoD? I was thinking of exactly that item, I would suggest you make it a one off staff that never recharges because the change is a pretty huge difference in power at that point.I was thinking of that too, but I'm not sure it's such a big deal. By the time PCs can recharge it, they'll likely be starting part 4, and not have that much time to make use of it.
Yeah, this is true. I suppose they could have it recharged from someone else though.
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Creative Director
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If you want death to hurt a little more, just make sure that players can't spontaneously transfer GP to diamond dust and that they can't use the diamond dust as currency. (They would be able to sell it, but there's not a huge market of buyers for it.)
Whether or not a GM thinks player death actually hurts more or not is kind of irrelevant. All GMs should play as a player in a campaign just so they can feel what it's like to have random chance (such as a poor Initiative check or a nat-1 saving throw) to suddenly kill a character you've put months or years of work into. Not being able to quickly resurrect the character sucks for 2 reasons:
1) Time spent dead is time you're not playing the game.
2) It's kind of humiliating because it feels like your character failed, even if the death was out of his/her hands.
It's easy for a GM to lose sight of the fact that the players are there to play the game and improve their characters—advancing the storyline of the campaign is almost ALWAYS a lesser part of the joy a player gets out of the game (unless the player is also a GM, really).
Having a character die ALWAYS hurts, even if that means your character's just dead for the rest of the combat and only out of the game for an hour or 30 minutes of real time.
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Creative Director
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We are using Pathfinder but I'm DMing a published adventure that already had the staff of life in it. This is a 3.5 adventure and staves couldn't get recharged back then.I suspect RHoD? I was thinking of exactly that item, I would suggest you make it a one off staff that never recharges because the change is a pretty huge difference in power at that point.
In fact, that's EXACTLY the adventure I was thinking about, since I wrote the majority of that adventure AND was the one who put a staff of life into the adventure. And I stand 100% behind that decision, since the nature of Red Hand of Doom is that the PCs are on a timer as war builds. Having a PC die, especially at 5th or 6th level, generally means that the PC is going to have to be replaced since there's no way mid level characters will be able to easily afford a raise dead... and if they DO, that'll reduce their resources SIGNIFICANTLY, to the point where another death is greater.
By putting the staff of life in the adventure, the plan was essentially to fight against random chance. It's not going to be able to save EVERY PC since it'll run out of charges, and when it does, it's still gonna be expensive for them to refill, but given the nature of that adventure's strong storyline + timed events, having to replace a fallen PC with a new PC or having to take significant time out to travel and seek out a raise dead spell could mean the difference between a fun adventure and a crappy adventure.
So, for RHoD, I would suggest keeping the staff of life entirely as-is. That adventure's on such a tight timeline that it's not going to be an issue, really. If it REALLY makes you nervous, you can just replace the staff with a couple of raise dead scrolls, though...
And while I'm on the subject, a spoiler for Serpent's Skull...
Having a character die ALWAYS hurts, even if that means your character's just dead for the rest of the combat and only out of the game for an hour or 30 minutes of real time.
Definitely. I ran a campaign with a house rule specifically designed to keep players from permanently dieing (a variant of the action points from the Eberron Campaign Setting with an extra "spend 3 action points to turn a PC death into -9 and stable"), and the PCs were still very cautious and very wary of death.
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Wow! You guys knew which adventure I am running. Yes, it is RHoD. Let me say, Mr. Jacobs, I love it! Honestly, I bought the adventure YEARS ago and have been dying to DM it ever since I laid my hands on it. We began a little while ago - BUT we are running Pathfinder rules (with plenty of 3.5 extras) and I have scaled it up for MUCH higher-level characters. PCs started at level 13.
All I can say it that it has been VERY interesting see the power level with these players. I wanted them to feel heroic. Obviously they are crushing the normal low-level troops but there are enough big brutes to keep things exciting. I have customized it enough to make sure it is a challenge for everyone (essentially rebuilding almost all the monsters, lots of mobs with advanced templates or class levels).
I have been a DM for years and I always saved high-level monsters like dragons for a later date. "Some day we'll get high enough level for the PCs to face a dragon" Well someday never came. I've spoken with other DMs and they've done the same thing... saving iconic big, bad monsters like dragons for something special that never comes to fruitition. Thus, I'm so excited to finally play RHoD with all the dragons in it (granted they're a lot bigger and meaner now given the level of the PCs)
Given the timeline in the RHoD story and the potential lethality of the new, highly customized brutes in my game, I don't feel so bad about the PCs having the Staff of Life any more.
While I'm on the subject of high-level players, can anyone point me to threads on this message board regarding tips and tricks for DMing high-level PCs?
Essentially, I have six players (7 PCs) in the party (all level 14 now) and they are tricked out with gear. Essentially the APL for this group is closer to 16 or 16.5.
Let me say again I LOVE the story for RHoD. I swear I've read the adventure book five times now.
I'm totally open to ideas on DMing for a high-level/high-power group.
Thanks to everyone who has responded thus far.
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*bump*
I'm still looking for tips on high-level play.
If there is a thread for it, please point me in the right direction.
I appreciate everyone's help!
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*bump*I'm still looking for tips on high-level play.
If there is a thread for it, please point me in the right direction.
I appreciate everyone's help!
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For wizards:
Never prepare all your spells for the day at one time (possibly as few as 1/4 of your spells should be sufficient to start the day with).
Always have some pearls of power instead of memorizing the same spell multiple times -- this has the added benefit of letting you restore a different spell if you find you didn't need the one you thought you would.
Extend spell on 10 minute buffs is worth it. With extend spell you can expect a 10 minute per level spell to last about 5 hours at 15th level (10x15x2=300 minutes/60 = 5 hours). Yes it eats up a higher level slot but let me ask you what is worth more, that slot or having the buff up and not having to waste an action in combat to have it? In a lot of ways it can be a really cheap pearl of power/ quicken spell effect.
Multiple spell books. You must have at least 2, perferably 3.
Still spell, silent spell, eschew materials and spell mastery. Yes you want these. It clears you of the petty problems that could reduce you to nothing more than a glorified peasant. These four feats can get you out of more jams than you think, and will always leave you with an ace in the hole.
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Abraham, I appreciate the comments but I'm actually looking for tips on DMing a high-level campaign. Not playing one...although if I ever do play a high-level caster I'll keep your suggestions in mind (hear that Dukai?).
And what the kukri fighter needs is a NERF! You outlasted the barbarian. Of course you didn't get double-teamed by two giants either. Anyway, you'll get your loot, if you survive! Muhahahaha. (just kidding about the nerf. i love that concept. Pssst... don't tell the other players what the campaign is. keep it and my identity a secret!)
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Oh, advice for DMing:
Some of it is basics:
Keep a dry erase board with you to keep track of buffs and the like. Go with a boss, and multiple underlings -- but keep the underlings of the same type -- that way you have less abilities and what not to remember.
Use environmental conditions to challenge players more -- blizzards and driving rain are both great ways to limit visibility and hand out everyone miss chances without relying on a bunch of magic or feeling too hokey about it -- slippery surfaces will still be a challenge for some PCs even at higher levels, and high winds can have quite the effect on flyers! Not every challenge has to be high level either -- stopping a hostage situation takes finesse and if botched could end up being very costly for the players (having to raise dead or true resurrect the princess for example).
I have a houserule that all effects end at the end of the initiative count -- buffs, poison saves and the like -- that way I don't have to worry about tracking when different effects end as much it's all at the end of the round for everyone.
This one takes finesse to work out correctly but it basically amounts to forcing a pace on the players -- don't give them too much time to get comfortable or rest after the fights they might want too. By keeping them moving they have to think more and more about things as resources get depeleted for the day.
Let your players be awesome. They are high level -- they have epic spells, epic loot and are legendary -- so treat them as such. People should recognize their talents and accomplishments -- they should pull out outrageous stunts on a fairly regular basis -- after all that's the level of play you are at.
If the fighter manages to splat a monster in one hit don't get frustrated -- after all it's just one monster -- you have plenty more to throw out there and that's what the fighter does -- same with the wizard and getting an SOD to stick.
Create the challenge -- not the solution. Just give them the problem and when they come up with a plan that sounds feasible let them do it -- even if it "just eats up some spells" instead of forcing skill checks the challenge as done what you want -- it ate up resources (indeed even more so if it eats up spells than if it was just a skill check!) -- same with monsters -- so what that they didn't hit? Both the wizard and cleric blew out 4 7th level spells, that sort of stuff hurts just as much as losing 50 hp.