Does anyone other than me still see that damned APG thread in this section, even though it says "Moved to Paizo Products"? I left a post message for PMG to see if he can fix that.
"Advanced Player's Gonzo Journalism"? Yeah, it's moved, I think it's only still here to say that it's moved, honestly. (Still a waste of a perfectly good title, and he better dislike the APG exactly as much as he says he does, or the title is a lie in addition to being a waste.)
Damn. People don't want pie for breakfast anymore.
Well, I hope everyone has a great day. My Okie friend may be driving down tonight for a full weekend of LABOR DAY GAMEORAMA. I probably won't be around much after today.
Have fun!
I won't be around much this weekend, either. We're going whitewater rafting again.
Cool!
If you want to put players with people on the board, I'll be gaming with Aztrucomon and Sarth (they don't post very much, though.) I don't think the other two guys post at all.
I'm sure they're actually sockpuppets.
Damned in word and deed, says this "fanboi."
I'm sure they're actually sockpuppets.Damn. People don't want pie for breakfast anymore.
Well, I hope everyone has a great day. My Okie friend may be driving down tonight for a full weekend of LABOR DAY GAMEORAMA. I probably won't be around much after today.
Have fun!
I won't be around much this weekend, either. We're going whitewater rafting again.
Cool!
If you want to put players with people on the board, I'll be gaming with Aztrucomon and Sarth (they don't post very much, though.) I don't think the other two guys post at all.
Sigh. What a world.
I think your response was fine, assuming he reads the spoiler.
I'm curious, is my tone simply undecipherable for anyone who doesn't know me in "Should Christians play Pathfinder?"
I actually read that as "Should CHRISTMAS play Pathfinder?". I was wondering what kind of dice santa had, and whether or not I should be extra good this year in the hopes of getting a peek at them.
I think your response was fine, assuming he reads the spoiler.
Thanks for the temperature check, Badger.
EDIT: Too bad it's too late to edit out that possessive/contraction error.
I have about 60 of them for Hero system.Ah, you gotta do what I did. I find a block of mini six siders at GenCon a few years back (they came at 70+ in regular dice box).I know why I don't play much: the setting is AWESOME, but I need to take extra Dramamine for the dice pools.God, I love Shadowrun. Why don't I play this more often?Probably the same reason many Shadowrun fans don't. It's hard to convince non-fans of its über-coolness. I can usually get fantasy gamers to play by using the line "Haven't you ever wanted to shoot a dragon with a bazooka?"
I would also say that Shadowrun in terms of character creation leans towards the ugly side of gaming. I've been in games with people who break out the calculators to make sure they can squeeze in all the cyberware they can without going mad, down to the decimal. These people are usually the ones who are not interested in conversation with their fellow players, at least in my experience- even outside of the game.
Also, despite my love for the setting and its fiction, you're kind of pigeonholed when you play Shadowrun itself as a game. You NEED to have a certain party setup, or you'll be hosed during a run. Sure, you can hire some guns and a decker and perhaps a wizard, but unless someone at the table is filling that role, you'll feel a little lost during certain aspects of the adventure. Again, despite my dislike for some aspects of the later edition of Shadowrun(Alphaware, I'm looking at you), I can see where the devs really really tried to fix these problems, although they have not succeeded as yet(Otaku/Technomancers being deckers who can hack as well as help the party fight back when under fire, Mentor Spirits that can give Hermetics a much needed boost/magical backup when facing an angry Shaman or at the very least keep them from being a walking Manaball spell, etc).
EDIT: Too bad it's too late to edit out that possessive/contraction error.
Too late you say? How far apart are your contractions?
I would also say that Shadowrun in terms of character creation leans towards the ugly side of gaming. I've been in games with people who break out the calculators to make sure they can squeeze in all the cyberware they can without going mad, down to the decimal. These people are usually the ones who are not interested in conversation with their fellow players, at least in my experience- even outside of the game.
Also, despite my love for the setting and its fiction, you're kind of pigeonholed when you play Shadowrun itself as a game. You NEED to have a certain party setup, or you'll be hosed during a run. Sure, you can hire some guns and a decker and perhaps a wizard, but unless someone at the table is filling that role, you'll feel a little lost during certain aspects of the adventure. Again, despite my dislike for some aspects of the later edition of Shadowrun(Alphaware, I'm looking at you), I can see where the devs really really tried to fix these problems, although they have not succeeded as yet(Otaku/Technomancers being deckers who can hack as well as help the party fight back when under fire, Mentor Spirits that can give Hermetics a much needed boost/magical backup when facing an angry Shaman or at the very least keep them from being a walking Manaball spell, etc).
Doesn't the Essence penalties only go down to the tenths for fractional costs? Who needs a calculator for that?
Also, isn't it at least partly the GM's job to make sure the run doesn't require elements that the party doesn't have? You know, a minimal amount of magic if they don't have a mage, not forcing a mostly-social party into three hours worth of gunfights, that sort of thing? Oh, and there's no real difference between shamans and hermetic mages in the fourth edition, so there's at least one problem solved.
I'm curious, is my tone simply undecipherable for anyone who doesn't know me in "Should Christians play Pathfinder?"I actually read that as "Should CHRISTMAS play Pathfinder?". I was wondering what kind of dice santa had, and whether or not I should be extra good this year in the hopes of getting a peek at them.
well they are red and fuzzy with little white dots. It takes a bit of time to see the diff between the 20 and the 19 though at first glance but you know he is a jolly old elf and can get it taken care of easily.
Mmmmm.....lunch
damn and I have yet to have breakfast.hmmm what to do?
I would also say that Shadowrun in terms of character creation leans towards the ugly side of gaming. I've been in games with people who break out the calculators to make sure they can squeeze in all the cyberware they can without going mad, down to the decimal. These people are usually the ones who are not interested in conversation with their fellow players, at least in my experience- even outside of the game.
Also, despite my love for the setting and its fiction, you're kind of pigeonholed when you play Shadowrun itself as a game. You NEED to have a certain party setup, or you'll be hosed during a run. Sure, you can hire some guns and a decker and perhaps a wizard, but unless someone at the table is filling that role, you'll feel a little lost during certain aspects of the adventure. Again, despite my dislike for some aspects of the later edition of Shadowrun(Alphaware, I'm looking at you), I can see where the devs really really tried to fix these problems, although they have not succeeded as yet(Otaku/Technomancers being deckers who can hack as well as help the party fight back when under fire, Mentor Spirits that can give Hermetics a much needed boost/magical backup when facing an angry Shaman or at the very least keep them from being a walking Manaball spell, etc).
Doesn't the Essence penalties only go down to the tenths for fractional costs? Who needs a calculator for that?
Also, isn't it at least partly the GM's job to make sure the run doesn't require elements that the party doesn't have? You know, a minimal amount of magic if they don't have a mage, not forcing a mostly-social party into three hours worth of gunfights, that sort of thing? Oh, and there's no real difference between shamans and hermetic mages in the fourth edition, so there's at least one problem solved.
I would say that Shadowrun requires a level of GM reponsiblity on par with Rifts and other sci-fi heavy games. Somtimes the GM is up to the job, sometimes they're not. Then again, there are times where I don't even think its the GM's fault- sometimes that Red Samurai hit squad has a few summoned spirits for backup, and sometimes negotiations break down. This is Shadowrun, not Pathfinder- there is no CR here. Sometimes things just get all slotted up.
And hermetics and shamans one and the same? This only fills me with bile and rage. Which I call bilge.
And hermetics and shamans one and the same? This only fills me with bile and rage. With I call bilge.
Well, they're mostly the same. Rolling Charisma+Willpower to resist Drain instead of Logic+Will, can summon a different set of five spirit types, and that's basically it. I guess they just realized that they couldn't realistically make two separate-but-equal magic systems, and they probably wouldn't have enough space to do that anyway.
How were they different in earlier editions anyway? Everything before the fourth edition is a bit before my times.
And hermetics and shamans one and the same? This only fills me with bile and rage. With I call bilge.Well, they're mostly the same. Rolling Charisma+Willpower to resist Drain instead of Logic+Will, can summon a different set of five spirit types, and that's basically it. I guess they just realized that they couldn't realistically make two separate-but-equal magic systems, and they probably wouldn't have enough space to do that anyway.
But I dun want that! I want Shaman and Mage!!!!
Okay, I'm whining, but it really changes the flavor of the world, as shown in the new Shadowrun novels. I understand the dire need to update the setting, but I think they went too far into strange new world territory.
Visit the vending machine. Always good breakfast from the vending machines....Mmmmm.....lunchdamn and I have yet to have breakfast.hmmm what to do?
My home does not have one of these. Yet. Thank you for the idea.
Okay, I'm whining, but it really changes the flavor of the world, as shown in the new Shadowrun novels. I understand the dire need to update the setting, but I think they went too far into strange new world territory.
How? Like I edited into my last post, I don't have any experience with anything but the fourth edition. So, how does having shamans and hermetic mages using the same mechanics change the setting? (Also, how were they mechanically different in older editions? This is just curiosity, really.)
EDIT: Oh, and are you sure the new Shadowrun novels aren't just bad? I mean, it's not like novels based on game worlds have a very good track record.
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And hermetics and shamans one and the same? This only fills me with bile and rage. With I call bilge.Well, they're mostly the same. Rolling Charisma+Willpower to resist Drain instead of Logic+Will, can summon a different set of five spirit types, and that's basically it. I guess they just realized that they couldn't realistically make two separate-but-equal magic systems, and they probably wouldn't have enough space to do that anyway.But I dun want that! I want Shaman and Mage!!!!
Okay, I'm whining, but it really changes the flavor of the world, as shown in the new Shadowrun novels. I understand the dire need to update the setting, but I think they went too far into strange new world territory.
Actually, I *like* how they changed the magic system. Yes, shamans still have a totem and mages still stick their noses in books. But having a Mentor Spirit is no longer required for the Shaman, but is now a positive quality (along with Elementals for Magi, druidic spirits, etc.).
And the way they define the Traditions is that there are six types of spirits: air, beasts, earth, fire, man and water. But each tradition pulls from different spirits for different functions.
For instance, Hermetics use Fire for Combat, Air for Detection, Man for Health, Water for Illusion and Earth for Manipulation. They resist drain with Willpower + Logic.
Shamans use Beasts for Combat, Water for Detection, Earth for Health, Air for Illusion and Man for Manipulation. They resist drain with Willpower + Charisma.
This opens up other traditions to be easily defined and created. For instance, in Street Magic, we have 18 other traditions defined, since it's a matter of assigning the 6 spirits to the 5 associations (in game, it's that a tradition can only master 5 of the 6 types of spirits). The association doesn't affect what's actually being cast, but it's meant as flavor for the spells. The only place the association effects what's going on is when the caster summons a spirit. If a Hermetic summons a Spirit of Man, the spirit will be keyed to Healing tasks, while a Shaman summoning a Spirit of Man would be keying the tasks to Manipulation. (Although in gameplay, it's usually reversed, i.e. if a Mage wants a spirit for Healing tasks, a Spirit of Man would show up.)
If you get a chance, pick up the newest rules (20th Anniversary edition for $15 at DriveThruRPG), I think you'll like the changes they've made.
(Oh, and ALL hackers go on the mission now. With the Wireless Matrix, they can access it anytime, anywhere. And most of the Corps lock down their locations so it's easier to hack from onsite.)
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Okay, I'm whining, but it really changes the flavor of the world, as shown in the new Shadowrun novels. I understand the dire need to update the setting, but I think they went too far into strange new world territory.How? Like I edited into my last post, I don't have any experience with anything but the fourth edition. So, how does having shamans and hermetic mages using the same mechanics change the setting? (Also, how were they mechanically different in older editions? This is just curiosity, really.)
EDIT: Oh, and are you sure the new Shadowrun novels aren't just bad? I mean, it's not like novels based on game worlds have a very good track record.
In previous editions, the two were as different as Wizard and Cleric. Functionally, they did the same things, but there was a lot of stuff added to both that meant a lot of (paper)work to track stuff.
As for the novels, Shadowrun has always been very hit or miss. Bob Charette, Michael Stackpole, Nigel Findley, Lisa Smedman and Jak Koke were some of the best for the series, but even some of theirs were off the mark, depending on what they were writing about.
And hermetics and shamans one and the same? This only fills me with bile and rage. With I call bilge.Well, they're mostly the same. Rolling Charisma+Willpower to resist Drain instead of Logic+Will, can summon a different set of five spirit types, and that's basically it. I guess they just realized that they couldn't realistically make two separate-but-equal magic systems, and they probably wouldn't have enough space to do that anyway.But I dun want that! I want Shaman and Mage!!!!
Okay, I'm whining, but it really changes the flavor of the world, as shown in the new Shadowrun novels. I understand the dire need to update the setting, but I think they went too far into strange new world territory.
Actually, I *like* how they changed the magic system. Yes, shamans still have a totem and mages still stick their noses in books. But having a Mentor Spirit is no longer required for the Shaman, but is now a positive quality (along with Elementals for Magi, druidic spirits, etc.).
And the way they define the Traditions is that there are six types of spirits: air, beasts, earth, fire, man and water. But each tradition pulls from different spirits for different functions.
For instance, Hermetics use Fire for Combat, Air for Detection, Man for Health, Water for Illusion and Earth for Manipulation. They resist drain with Willpower + Logic.
Shamans use Beasts for Combat, Water for Detection, Earth for Health, Air for Illusion and Man for Manipulation. They resist drain with Willpower + Charisma.
This opens up other traditions to be easily defined and created. For instance, in Street Magic, we have 18 other traditions defined, since it's a matter of assigning the 6 spirits to the 5 associations (in game, it's that a tradition can only master 5 of the 6 types of spirits). The association doesn't affect what's actually being cast, but it's meant as flavor for the spells. The only place the association...
Don't mind my old man grumbling. I do have the most up to date version of the rules, but you explained it a HELL of a lot better than the book did. My love for Shadowrun revolves primarily around nostalgia and the video game for Genesis and the novels. It wouldn't be the first time everything I loved about a system or setting was everything all the other fans hated about it.
That said, I have to underscore that they really didn't explain everything half as well as you did, or maybe it just came across as too weird or too different to a 2nd/3rd ed player.
Okay, I'm whining, but it really changes the flavor of the world, as shown in the new Shadowrun novels. I understand the dire need to update the setting, but I think they went too far into strange new world territory.How? Like I edited into my last post, I don't have any experience with anything but the fourth edition. So, how does having shamans and hermetic mages using the same mechanics change the setting? (Also, how were they mechanically different in older editions? This is just curiosity, really.)
EDIT: Oh, and are you sure the new Shadowrun novels aren't just bad? I mean, it's not like novels based on game worlds have a very good track record.
In previous editions, the two were as different as Wizard and Cleric. Functionally, they did the same things, but there was a lot of stuff added to both that meant a lot of (paper)work to track stuff.
As for the novels, Shadowrun has always been very hit or miss. Bob Charette, Michael Stackpole, Nigel Findley, Lisa Smedman and Jak Koke were some of the best for the series, but even some of theirs were off the mark, depending on what they were writing about.
It's extremely hit or miss. The good books are GREAT, but there are Shadowrun novels that I have been trying to finish for *years* and just can't slog through.
Sawk?
Awright folks, time for this DM to hit the ROAD! The day was certainly smoother than yesterday, and I even got some planning done for a L5R project I'm working on. Here's hoping I can get a handle on what's going down with D&D this weekend and update the paladins for Freehold a little- the Sarunia stuff has lit a fire under me a bit.
See you in the funny pages.
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I'm curious, is my tone simply undecipherable for anyone who doesn't know me in "Should Christians play Pathfinder?"
I think it was fine. But maybe I got it because I have become accustomed to your style.
That thread makes me terribly uncomfortable and I am not sure I can adequately give him comfort. I had my D&D books burned by my mother and my pastor while the entire congregation watched. I don't know how to handle the subject tactfully.
I only say this because I wish that I could. I had an obstacle placed between me and my faith, albeit inadvertently. My mother and the church created a choice where no choice should have existed. While I am older and understand the situation better, that moment (combined with others) became helped lead to my loss of faith. Ultimately it was better for me in the long run, as I came out of the experience better armed when it came to my spiritual belief. I got to explore new ideas and concepts that I would not have been exposed to if I had not dealt with this situation. But I would hate to see the same kind of needless doubt happen to him as he seems very sure of his faith.
One more thing, and I swear I'll sew my digital mouth shut:
I've had an account on the Rite Forums, but it's been deactivated. The FAQ section tells me that I can contact an administrator to reactivate it, but I have no idea who the administrators are. Can you point me to one or more?
I'm curious, is my tone simply undecipherable for anyone who doesn't know me in "Should Christians play Pathfinder?"I think it was fine. But maybe I got it because I have become accustomed to your style.
That thread makes me terribly uncomfortable and I am not sure I can adequately give him comfort. I had my D&D books burned by my mother and my pastor while the entire congregation watched. I don't know how to handle the subject tactfully.
I only say this because I wish that I could. I had an obstacle placed between me and my faith, albeit inadvertently. My mother and the church created a choice where no choice should have existed. While I am older and understand the situation better, that moment (combined with others) became helped lead to my loss of faith. Ultimately it was better for me in the long run, as I came out of the experience better armed when it came to my spiritual belief. I got to explore new ideas and concepts that I would not have been exposed to if I had not dealt with this situation. But I would hate to see the same kind of needless doubt happen to him as he seems very sure of his faith.
I am very sorry to hear of that. Not all of us are like that. maybe one day you can find what was, I will not say lost, but rather taken from you.
I'm curious, is my tone simply undecipherable for anyone who doesn't know me in "Should Christians play Pathfinder?"I think it was fine. But maybe I got it because I have become accustomed to your style.
That thread makes me terribly uncomfortable and I am not sure I can adequately give him comfort. I had my D&D books burned by my mother and my pastor while the entire congregation watched. I don't know how to handle the subject tactfully.
I only say this because I wish that I could. I had an obstacle placed between me and my faith, albeit inadvertently. My mother and the church created a choice where no choice should have existed. While I am older and understand the situation better, that moment (combined with others) became helped lead to my loss of faith. Ultimately it was better for me in the long run, as I came out of the experience better armed when it came to my spiritual belief. I got to explore new ideas and concepts that I would not have been exposed to if I had not dealt with this situation. But I would hate to see the same kind of needless doubt happen to him as he seems very sure of his faith.
I dunno, my BS meter is pegged on that thread. Call me cynical.
I dunno, my BS meter is pegged on that thread. Call me cynical.
Mine too.
I dunno, my BS meter is pegged on that thread. Call me cynical.Mine too.
I told you to call me cynical!
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I am very sorry to hear of that. Not all of us are like that. maybe one day you can find what was, I will not say lost, but rather taken from you.I'm curious, is my tone simply undecipherable for anyone who doesn't know me in "Should Christians play Pathfinder?"I think it was fine. But maybe I got it because I have become accustomed to your style.
That thread makes me terribly uncomfortable and I am not sure I can adequately give him comfort. I had my D&D books burned by my mother and my pastor while the entire congregation watched. I don't know how to handle the subject tactfully.
I only say this because I wish that I could. I had an obstacle placed between me and my faith, albeit inadvertently. My mother and the church created a choice where no choice should have existed. While I am older and understand the situation better, that moment (combined with others) became helped lead to my loss of faith. Ultimately it was better for me in the long run, as I came out of the experience better armed when it came to my spiritual belief. I got to explore new ideas and concepts that I would not have been exposed to if I had not dealt with this situation. But I would hate to see the same kind of needless doubt happen to him as he seems very sure of his faith.
There are some gamers that our church has given keys to the church to who play every Friday night. (I was asked to "check it out" to make sure everything was fine -- but I'd say that actually few people in the congregation knows about it.) None of the players actually attend our church. I just think that it's kind of cool that we are willing to trust a few non-church members access to our building (free of charge) to game.
You're cynical.I told you to call me cynical!
I dunno, my BS meter is pegged on that thread. Call me cynical.Mine too.
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Ms Cynical if you're nasty!You're cynical.I told you to call me cynical!
I dunno, my BS meter is pegged on that thread. Call me cynical.Mine too.
Ahhh... Janet and Paula together on the big screen. Good memories.
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on't mind my old man grumbling. I do have the most up to date version of the rules, but you explained it a HELL of a lot better than the book did. My love for Shadowrun revolves primarily around nostalgia and the video game for Genesis and the novels. It wouldn't be the first time everything I loved about a system or setting was everything all the other fans hated about it.
That said, I have to underscore that they really didn't explain everything half as well as you did, or maybe it just came across as too weird or too different to a 2nd/3rd ed player.
Pick up the Street Magic book if you can. It helped me a lot understand some stuff. (In fact, if you got the $$, I'd recommend getting the Bundle that has the five main rulebooks for $50.)
Fascinating, guys. Thanks to everyone for talking about it. Because of my background and knowing some stories like that, the thread didn't ring any warning bells for me. If it's a sock puppet AND the story is true, then I really don't blame them, as bi-polar is so difficult for people to talk about and I could understand someone wanting to talk about it with people they trust but not reveal who they are. If it's a sock puppet and the story is NOT true, then I wish people would stop be such stinking rotting douche-bags.
Fascinating, guys. Thanks to everyone for talking about it. Because of my background and knowing some stories like that, the thread didn't ring any warning bells for me. If it's a sock puppet AND the story is true, then I really don't blame them, as bi-polar is so difficult for people to talk about and I could understand someone wanting to talk about it with people they trust but not reveal who they are. If it's a sock puppet and the story is NOT true, then I wish people would stop be such stinking rotting douche-bags.
If it is true, he's gotten a lot of good advice from nice, concerned people here, and maybe he'll take it and be helped.
I don't know if I hope it's true and that there is a poor soul with those problems, or that it's false and there's a terrible person jerking good folks around. Neither is a win.
Fascinating, guys. Thanks to everyone for talking about it. Because of my background and knowing some stories like that, the thread didn't ring any warning bells for me. If it's a sock puppet AND the story is true, then I really don't blame them, as bi-polar is so difficult for people to talk about and I could understand someone wanting to talk about it with people they trust but not reveal who they are. If it's a sock puppet and the story is NOT true, then I wish people would stop be such stinking rotting douche-bags.If it is true, he's gotten a lot of good advice from nice, concerned people here, and maybe he'll take it and be helped.
I don't know if I hope it's true and that there is a poor soul with those problems, or that it's false and there's a terrible person jerking good folks around. Neither is a win.
I have stepped in that mess as far as I am willing. Which was to make an off topic remark or two and leave.
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Fascinating, guys. Thanks to everyone for talking about it. Because of my background and knowing some stories like that, the thread didn't ring any warning bells for me. If it's a sock puppet AND the story is true, then I really don't blame them, as bi-polar is so difficult for people to talk about and I could understand someone wanting to talk about it with people they trust but not reveal who they are. If it's a sock puppet and the story is NOT true, then I wish people would stop be such stinking rotting douche-bags.
Not sure whether it's real or not, but I can say there are churches like this still out there. My mothers church being one.