This is my favorite match-up of Swords vs Guns
You're right. Let's see if this is a more easier to comprehend display
-------------- DMG / Crit // Range / Cap / Wgt / Type / ATT/ STR Mod / Max STR
Blunderbuss // 2d6 / x2 ///// 20 /// 1 // 5lb / B/P // +4 / x1 ½ //// 16
Musket ---- // 1d8 / x3 ///// 90 /// 1 // 9lb / B/P // +2 / x1 ////// 18
Pistol ---- //// 1d6 / x2 ///// 30 /// 1 // 4lb / B/P // +3 / x1 ////// 16
Revolver -- // 1d6 / x2 ///// 30 /// 5 // 5lb / B/P // +3 / x1 ////// 14
Rifle ----- /// 1d8 /19-20(x3) 150 / 1 // 8lb / B/P // +2 / x1 ½ //// 20
Scattergun- // 3d6 / x2 ///// 30 /// 1 // 8lb / B/P // +4 / x2 ////// 22Notes:
1)*ATT bonus applies only to first range increment for Musket, Pistol, or Revolver2)*STR Mod of the STR bonus adds to damage of the weapon and reduces the Armor/Natural Armor of the target AC for the purposes of the ATT roll for Musket, Pistol, Revolver and Rifle.
3)*STR Mod of the STR bonus adds to damage ONLY for Blunderbuss and Scattergun. Furthermore, damage for these weapons is halved for every range increment after the first, to the max of 1/8th damage at four range increments.
4)*One handed firearms do not draw an attack of opportunity when fired. Firing two handed firearms does draw attacks of opportunity, as does reloading ANY firearm.
5)*Reloading a firearm takes 4 full round actions using a powder horn and separate ball and wad. Using premade paper cartridges to reload takes 2 full rounds. Minuteman Feat(rapid reload for muzzle loaders) reduces time to 2 movement actions.
Does this help make it easier to understand?
easier to under what your trying to do yes. still a bit complicated for my liking. see what you think of these amendments.
1) these flat attack bonuses I think are simply too much and I think you should remove them ( if you see my example below these notes you see why at early levels you are basically always going to hit. just too good.
2) instead of bonus reduces AC for simplicity why not just add this bonus to attack roll. it not like a high dex would help to dodge of a bullet anyway.
attk +d20 vs AC - STR mod is the same as attk+str mod+d20 vs AC and keep it in a form everyone is used to dealing with
3)checking dist and then fractioning your damage is again slowing things down. although it might be more accurate of reality it would be a pain to track.
Instead why not somthing simple
Lose STR bonus to damage beyond first range increment.
4) all ranged attacks should draw AoO's even hand crossbows draw an AoO which is pretty close to a pistol in comparison.
Consider any action movie trying to shoot someone within 5 feet puts them within range to try and knock your hand/arm as you bring your weapon to bear.
At best you could have a feat
Shoot from the hip:
You've learn't to fire your weapon in close quaters without leaving it exposed for disruption.
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity firing your weapon againt the person you are shooting, you take -2 to your attack for firing quickly and not being able to aim your weapon properly. (you still provoke AoO from anyone else adjacent to you)
(you could have a second feat to reduce the -2 penalty to 0 and avoid all AoO's)
5) not too bad as is although personally i'd get around this by taking multiple loaded firearms into combat. you have probably already consdered the crossbow reloading rules.
Currently with Your rules
Fighter
18 Strength 14Dex
BAB +1
using Blunderbuss
Attack roll BAB+1, DEX+2, weapon +4, STR mod -6 AC , so +7 to hit and -6AC which at level 1 you rolling +7 vs AC10-12 for the most part
(rolling anything above 4-6 is a hit thats basically 75% hit rate)
thats really a bit much, your always going to be hitting.
2d6+6 dmg
Try these from above instead
1) add STR mod of the weapon to your attack roll and damage roll, if you apply this to attack don't apply your DEX mod to the ranged attck role
2) lose the STR mod bonus to weapon damage outside the weapons first range increment
3) shooting a firearm counted as a ranged attack and draws an Attack of opporunity, (Feats Shoot From the Hip I and II to negate)
4) reloading a firearm takes 1 full round action, using catriages take 1 standard action, Minuteman feat reduces this to a move action.
my rules
Fighter
18 Strength 14Dex
BAB +1
using Blunderbuss
Attack roll BAB+1, STR mod +6 = +7 vs AC 16-18, and your hitting 50%
2d6+6dmg inside 20 feet
2d6 dmg for 25feet+
Final comment would be refering back to having multiple firearms. You can't really balence a weapons damage potential by having long reload times as you can awlays carry multiple firearms and feats like quickdraw can have you firing every round. with that in mind you might as well have it so you can fire each round with 1 weapon and then you can balence the attack and damage rolls.
My numbers might not be balenced with your existing modifers but think the theory behind them is simpler and easier to handle during combat.
be kind and consider a DM might need to handle 10 monsters using firearms at differnt ranges make life easy for him hehehe
and if you've read all the way done here , you get a gold star hehehe.
Fighter
18 Strength 14Dex
BAB +1
using BlunderbussAttack roll BAB+1, DEX+2, weapon +4, STR mod -6 AC , so +7 to hit and -6AC which at level 1 you rolling +7 vs AC10-12 for the most part
(rolling anything above 4-6 is a hit thats basically 75% hit rate)
thats really a bit much, your always going to be hitting.
2d6+6 dmg
First of all, thank you for the gold star. I've got a gold one for you reading my post as well
But you missed a few key points with your critique.
First of all, the high ATT roll for Pistols, Revolvers, and Muskets apply for ONLY the first range increment. For Muskets, that means at 0-90 feet, you get a +2 but at 91-180 feet you get a -2 ATT (just slightly less than a longbow). For a pistol (and revolver)this applies for the first 30 feet, but is slightly better since at close range pistols are easier to "target in" than a heavier musket (+3 at 0-30, -2 at 31-60, -4 at 61-90). Also note that based on the Max STR a pistol can handle it's Armor Penetration is max -3 (-2 for revolver)
With Blunderbuss (BB), the ATT bonus persists at increased ranges, but reduces VERY rapidly (-2 ATT/20 foot range increment)and damage reduces by 1/2 for each range increment. Also for BB(as well as Scattergun (SG)), THERE IS NO ARMOR PENETRATION! The strength bonus ONLY applies to Damage.
Other posters have offered alternative ways to utilize scattergun attacks, calling them an AOE attack that diminishes with range, but always hitting with targets saving vs Reflex for half. BB and SG have been designe to be CRAZY dangerous at short range (though WITHOUT the armor penetration) but much diminished as range increases.
I know that some muzzle loader weapons are too powerful to put into the hands of 1st level schnooks. Most other weapons off the shelf in the equipment charts are more or less balanced for 1st level, but there is a lot in the game that is not. Wands of fireballs are ALSO disproportionally overpowered for first level characters... and I don't know ANY GM who would let a starting character have one. But at third level or higher, even a SG loses it's game changing power edge (and 3rd level is just about when characters in my campaign can afford the 2,200 gp price tag listed in the Pathfinder Campaign book). And besides, you only get one shot before you have to switch to something different.
Also, as far as AoO, I think the final ship battle of Master and Commander offers an excellent example of pistols used in hand to hand -- Sword in one hand and a quick shot with the pistol in the other. Firing a pistol (now, I confess, this is not from personal experience) does little to diminish a fighters defense in intense combat.
As far as your final comment on multibarrelled weapons and rates of fire -- maybe that would work for my campaign at the higher levels (since there would ultimately be uniquely crafted weaponry all around) but I personally want to maintain that limitation in my own campaign at the lower/middle levels. If guns had no faults, there would be no cons to weigh against the pros -- that's to say, everyone would want one.
That's pretty good, but it acts more like a modern shotgun, with choke, than an old style blunderbuss. With a smoothbore, widemouth powder weapon like that, the dispersion of the rounds begins immediately, thus the cone. I just decided it was simpler to do the REF save and static damage than do something more complex, but to each their own.
Ya I had thought about a cone but I thought it might be too strong (mainly because I didn't think to just give it set DC).
First of all, thank you for the gold star. I've got a gold one for you reading my post as well
But you missed a few key points with your critique.
First of all, the high ATT roll for Pistols, Revolvers, and Muskets apply for ONLY the first range increment. For Muskets, that means at 0-90 feet, you get a +2 but at 91-180 feet you get a -2 ATT (just slightly less than a longbow). For a pistol (and revolver)this applies for the first 30 feet, but is slightly better since at close range pistols are easier to "target in" than a heavier musket (+3 at 0-30, -2 at 31-60, -4 at 61-90). Also note that based on the Max STR a pistol can handle it's Armor Penetration is max -3 (-2 for revolver)
Perhaps my problem with the attack bonus is the underlying reason for it. why are firearms inherently more accurate up close than at distance when compared to bows or crossbows in particular. Pathfinder rules don't discriminate between close and far shots as long as its within the max range of the weapon. There are feat like point blank shot to improve bonuses when shooting close to represent a trained accuracy when closer.
I feel if you add rules like this then they would have to apply to bows or at the very least crossbows as well.At the very least I would change it so that within the first range increment there is no inherent weapon bonus to attack and that shooting further incurs increasing penalty, which like two weapon fighting can be decreased down to 0 with a strong of feats, which would make sense as a trained sniper is just as accurate at 200feet as they are at 20 feet.
while that may not be a better system (since I'm really only shuffling around numbers into what I see as being easier to apply)
but I can say that having a variable attack bonus based on range is cumbersome to apply during a game.
So in short no firearm grants a bonus to your attack roll within the first range increment but they do having increasing penalties beyond that which can be mitigated with 2-3 feats
With Blunderbuss (BB), the ATT bonus persists at increased ranges, but reduces VERY rapidly (-2 ATT/20 foot range increment)and damage reduces by 1/2 for each range increment. Also for BB(as well as Scattergun (SG)), THERE IS NO ARMOR PENETRATION! The strength bonus ONLY applies to Damage.
Appologies for missing that point. again perhaps instead of halving damage values at increments you could instead reduce the max STR bonus granted by the weapon (again that just shifting numbers around)
perhaps what you need to look at is instead increasing the size of each increment so that in most games players will only need to deal with 2 ranges in 90% of combats. and only really need to do some math on the odd long shot on a fleeing enemy
Other posters have offered alternative ways to utilize scattergun attacks, calling them an AOE attack that diminishes with range, but always hitting with targets saving vs Reflex for half. BB and SG have been designe to be CRAZY dangerous at short range (though WITHOUT the armor penetration) but much diminished as range increases.
You could potentially handle that as an AOE attack cone but instead of using a DC vs Ref, you simply make a separate attack roll against everyone within at area. Just as if you were making 3 ranged touch attack rolls with a scorching ray. then the rules you've presented could be applied. Just a thought, i could go either way on that
I know that some muzzle loader weapons are too powerful to put into the hands of 1st level schnooks. Most other weapons off the shelf in the equipment charts are more or less balanced for 1st level, but there is a lot in the game that is not. Wands of fireballs are ALSO disproportionally overpowered for first level characters... and I don't know ANY GM who would let a starting character have one. But at third level or higher, even a SG loses it's game changing power edge (and 3rd level is just about when characters in my campaign can afford the 2,200 gp price tag listed in the Pathfinder Campaign book). And besides, you only get one shot before you have to switch to something different.
If you would like to enforce this sentiment then I would add one rule and one feat.
First the rule: anyone using a firearm without the associated weapon proficiency feat takes twice the normal penalty for wielding a non-proficient weapon.Firearm Proficiency:
Requirement BAB3+
You are proficient with the use of firearms and don't take a penalty when using them
Also, as far as AoO, I think the final ship battle of Master and Commander offers an excellent example of pistols used in hand to hand -- Sword in one hand and a quick shot with the pistol in the other. Firing a pistol (now, I confess, this is not from personal experience) does little to diminish a fighters defense in intense combat.
True however in the situation you describe the person is armed with a sword in the other hand. so in that situation i wouldn't have a problem with saying if your wielding a melee weapon with your other hand you don't draw an AoO
However if you wielding a firearm by itself then my suggestion applies
As far as your final comment on multibarrelled weapons and rates of fire -- maybe that would work for my campaign at the higher levels (since there would ultimately be uniquely crafted weaponry all around) but I personally want to maintain that limitation in my own campaign at the lower/middle levels. If guns had no faults, there would be no cons to weigh against the pros -- that's to say, everyone would want one.
Fair enough , my only point to add to that is if they are going to be single use options for the most part then making them fit the mould of weapons may not be the best answer. Since the majority of weapons tend to allow the use of multiple attacks to increase a character potential damage. which leads me back to making them a wondrous item and not a weapon.
Taking that one point further as a wonderous item and not a weapon the potential to create a specific skill which you roll when using the firearm to determine how effective it is.
as an example the Star Wars Saga edition rules on force powers
when using a force power you make a use the force check and the result of that check determine how powerful the effect is.
in the case of firearms
the DC checks determine how far the shot is accurate to, how much dmg, in the case of a scattershot how may targets can be hit toegther, how much AC is negated. you can even include low DC check on critical failures and the like
e.g.
DC5 backfire take 1 dmg
DC10 shot hits target if within 30 feet, does std dmg
DC15 shot hits target if within 60 feet, does std dmg, (does extra dmg if target is within 30 feet)
might be more involved maybe not, just one more option to consider for you custom guns rules
Cheers
Phasics, there is a lot of discussion on this, and you have good personal points with which I disagree. I will be succinct in my replies
First point. Muzzle loaders (with the exception of rifles) are very accurate at short ranges because of the energy and velocity pushing the bullet out of the barrel is tremendous, unlike any other medieval weapon. Essentially, what you get is an immediate effect in a perfectly straight line to your target (at short range)-- there is no effective flight time of an arrow or crossbow -- the instant you pull the trigger there is a hole in your enemy. This early accuracy is quickly lost as the bullet starts spinning in flight -- after a certain distance it doesn't matter how you correct for aim the bullet is going to fly randomly. Of course, this effect was corrected with rifling. I know this is just a matter of perspective in regards to the in game physics, but I like to represent the fact of muzzle loader accuracies
Your second point argues complicated rules to fix rules that are too complicated. To each his own, I guess. The same goes for your third point -- it is a choice of game dynamics for the weapon.
Your fourth point with the feat and the weapon proficiency -- I have heard it both ways. Some have argued that firearms are ridiculously easy to master (especially when compared to the bow) so they should not require a proficiency, or maybe be considered simply weapons. I call them exotic in my campaign and require a feat to use (unless the character is from Alkenstar, then they get that feat for free). I usually let the player start out with a single pistol (which are not game changers) and let it go from there. As far as the "double penalties to hit," you and I both know that is completely unrealistic. All you have to do is show someone which way the bullet goes and how to pull the trigger and they can instantly shoot a pistol... reloading it is another matter.
Your last comment dealt with campaign preferences, which I respect, so lets leave it at that.
SuperTKO wrote:
Musket, Damage 1d8, Critical x3, Range 90ft, Bludgeoning/Piercing,
*Muskets gain a +2 to attack rolls, gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls and ignores up to 4 of the target's armor/natural armor if the attack is made within the 1st range increment.
**Reloading a Musket takes 4 full round actions using a powder horn and separate ball and wad. Using premade paper cartridges to reload takes 2 full rounds. Minuteman Feat(rapid reload for muzzle loaders) reduces time to 2 movement actions. Reloading provokes an attack of opportunity.
Let me just fix this to the way it should be, assuming the weilder of the musket had 18 STR and he loaded his musket with as much powder as he could handle
Musket, Damage 1d8+4(STR18), Crit x3, Range 90 ft
*+2 ATT within 1st range increment, STR 18 ignores up to 4 of target's armor/natural armor.
The thing that I think people are having trouble with understanding about my house rule is simply that for muzzle loaders both the DEX of the shooter and the STR of the weapon effectively adds to the ATT roll, but the STR only counts for the purposes of overcoming armor. If you have a fast and naked dude shucking and jiving, the STR of the weapon is NOT going to help you hit him -- if it is a dude in full plate armor shucking and jiving, then it IS going to help hit him.
If the same 18 STR guy was shooting a Scattergun loaded with as much powder as he could handle, it would look like this
Scattergun, Damage 3d6+8(STR 18), Crit x2, Range 30 ft
*+4 ATT, 1/2 Damage (cumulative)per range increment after first
You may also notice with Scattergun two differences. One is that the bonus to ATT continues after 1st range increment and two is that there is no armor penetration. That does, what I think, best to mimic a shotgun spray. I don't like the AoE methodology of shotguns. I have hit two clay pigeons while skeet shooting before, but I've never managed to hit two geese or quail yet.
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That's a very cumbersome way of doing it.
If that's what you want, do this instead.
Firearms:
All firearms have a stat called AC Reduction. This stat, which is stored in parenthesis after the damage code, indicates how much AC it ignores. For example, if a character is using a flintlock pistol (1d6+2(-2)), then the AC Reduction of -2 indicates to reduce the target's AC by 2. Note this only applies to AC obtained from physical Armor or Natural Armor, not to AC derived from dodge or dex or other mystical sources (such as Holy or Infernal sources or magical force effects). For example, using the above flintlock pistol, a character with a 19 AC wearing +2 Studded Leather only has a 17 AC vs the flintlock pistol. A monk, on the other hand, with a 22 AC including armor derived from Bracers of Armor retains his full 22 AC.
Then just list the armor reduction amount in parenthesis after the damage code. That way people don't get confused by 'Str' which has a separate game usage.
That's a very cumbersome way of doing it.
If that's what you want, do this instead.
Firearms:
All firearms have a stat called AC Reduction. This stat, which is stored in parenthesis after the damage code, indicates how much AC it ignores. For example, if a character is using a flintlock pistol (1d6+2(-2)), then the AC Reduction of -2 indicates to reduce the target's AC by 2. Note this only applies to AC obtained from physical Armor or Natural Armor, not to AC derived from dodge or dex or other mystical sources (such as Holy or Infernal sources or magical force effects).
Very simple. I like it!
Muzzle loaders (with the exception of rifles) are very accurate at short ranges because of the energy and velocity pushing the bullet out of the barrel is tremendous, unlike any other medieval weapon. Essentially, what you get is an immediate effect in a perfectly straight line to your target (at short range)-- there is no effective flight time of an arrow or crossbow -- the instant you pull the trigger there is a hole in your enemy. This early accuracy is quickly lost as the bullet starts spinning in flight -- after a certain distance it doesn't matter how you correct for aim the bullet is going to fly randomly. Of course, this effect was corrected with rifling. I know this is just a matter of perspective in regards to the in game physics, but I like to represent the fact of muzzle loader accuracies.
Smooth bore muzzle loaders had an advantage in this respect, yes. The disadvantage was that the round bounced around inside the barrel, and so could come out at a small but random angle to the direction in which you are pointing the barrel - this effect became more pronounced with range, as did irregular drag on the bullet. Arrows and bolts may have a drop, but at least it was regular and predictable.
However, the flight time may be short, but the hole didn't appear the moment the trigger was pulled - there was a noticeable delay between pulling the trigger and the main charge detonating, if you are used to modern weapons; rather than 'bang' they go 'ka-bang' as the charge in the lock fires first and then detonates the charge in the barrel.
I think these two factors undermine your claim for better accuracy at short range, to be frank.
Muzzle loaders (with the exception of rifles) are very accurate at short ranges because of the energy and velocity pushing the bullet out of the barrel is tremendous, unlike any other medieval weapon. Essentially, what you get is an immediate effect in a perfectly straight line to your target (at short range)-- there is no effective flight time of an arrow or crossbow -- the instant you pull the trigger there is a hole in your enemy. This early accuracy is quickly lost as the bullet starts spinning in flight -- after a certain distance it doesn't matter how you correct for aim the bullet is going to fly randomly. Of course, this effect was corrected with rifling. I know this is just a matter of perspective in regards to the in game physics, but I like to represent the fact of muzzle loader accuracies.Smooth bore muzzle loaders had an advantage in this respect, yes. The disadvantage was that the round bounced around inside the barrel, and so could come out at a small but random angle to the direction in which you are pointing the barrel - this effect became more pronounced with range, as did irregular drag on the bullet. Arrows and bolts may have a drop, but at least it was regular and predictable.
However, the flight time may be short, but the hole didn't appear the moment the trigger was pulled - there was a noticeable delay between pulling the trigger and the main charge detonating, if you are used to modern weapons; rather than 'bang' they go 'ka-bang' as the charge in the lock fires first and then detonates the charge in the barrel.
I think these two factors undermine your claim for better accuracy at short range, to be frank.
You are right. I was using absolute terminology to make a relative comparison.
But the whole "ball rattles in the barrel" was relative to the shooter. Expert shooters (even with Muskets, not just rifles) tried to find a ball size (or a mould) that fit their barrel (with the wadding) -- which wasn't easy to do since standard barrel sizes and interchangable rifle parts didn't happen until the civil war. But even with expert shooters, after a certain range it didn't matter... physics and chaos theory took over.
You are right. I was using absolute terminology to make a relative comparison.
But the whole "ball rattles in the barrel" was relative to the shooter. Expert shooters (even with Muskets, not just rifles) tried to find a ball size (or a mould) that fit their barrel (with the wadding) -- which wasn't easy to do since standard barrel sizes and interchangable rifle parts didn't happen until the civil war. But even with expert shooters, after a certain range it didn't matter... physics and chaos theory took over.
Indeed - or they would use rifled barrels with tight-fitting bullets. These were difficult to load, like the Baker rifle used in the Napoleonic wars, but fiendishly accurate.
The rifle really came into it's own with the mini-ball, such as used in the Springfield rifle of the American Civil War. It didn't have to fit the barrel so tightly because it expanded when fired, so it made loading as easy as for a musket.